As a big Rallyfan, I'm wondering what are people's thoughts on the future of the WRC, and if Skoda will be a part of it.

At the moment there are rumours that Suzuki will pull out and even possibly Subaru - leaving Citroen and Ford to battle it out. That's if anybody cares - as the sport is becoming a sinking ship, mainly because it's too expensive and a lack of coverage.

Any thoughts??

Coverage in the media is terrible....they only report or film the top 10 cars and the rest are ignored.....gave up trying to follow it a while ago

Skoda are developing a car for the new S2000 rules.

Suzuki will probably not compete in WRC next year, I think JWRC is a bigger money maker for them, and the S1600 Swift is a proven platform. There's also talk that Monster Tajima will be stepping down from the role as team manager, and concentrating on the business side of Suzuki's Motorsports division.

The coverage on Dave, while flawed, is still better than nothing, which is what I had before!

Rally Ireland is also a big, big plus, we've been looking for a WRC round for years, so it's good to finally see the top level cars in the metal. It would be cool to see more International rallies, like the Targa Tasmania, featured as a round.

Subaru are finally starting to turn things around, Dave Richards is in the game far too long to do anythign as drastic a pulling the plug just as they start to get results.

I'm really looking forward to seeing what effect the S2000 rules bring, we'll see the likes of Fiat, Toyota, and even Dacia getting in on the act.

Instead of picked new venues for competing, such as Jordan, which was not a financial success, they should be looking at some of the other big rallies that are not on the WRC calendar, like the Targa Tasmania.

bring back a modern day group B.. imagine what would be possible nowadays!

bring back a modern day group B.. imagine what would be possible nowadays!

Far too expensive!!!

That's the problem now - the cars cost too much to develop - hence why no new Manufacturers want to join. S2000 don't seem to be as cheap as people were thinking, unfortunately.

Pasrt of the problem is cost. If the series was actually marketed effectively, with proper global coverage provided then maybe it would get back to it's glory days. it doesn't help things with the coverage in the UK over the last few years. Rallies started getting put on at random times and therefore viewing figures declined which led to less coverage. C4 had a good team, which went to ITV and lost the plot altogether. now it's on some 2-bit cheap and nasty freeview station which survives on repeats and provides a noddy level coverage presented by an annoying oik who acts like a child. fantastic, that's a great way to provide decent coverage and get people interested.

It would be good if F1 ITV team were able to do coverage because, like or laothe them, they do a very good job with the facilities available to them. Rally can be exciting but they just don't capture that effectively with the coverage of the last few years.

Also, the cost of competing is huge. A large number of events spread thinly across the world with teams like Ford and Citroen supporting a large number of drivers creates huge costs. These costs need to be met either by good market coverage for the manufacturers or paid for by sponsors getting their own market coverage. None of the drivers now are very high profile in the UK. Before you had McRae, Burns, Makinnen, Gronholm and Sainz. All guys who had beena t the top level for a long time. Now you have Petter who hasn't been able to achieve much since his win in 03, Loeb who is dominating everything, Markko who semi-retired after the death of his co-driver, and a lot of younger drivers who are all trying to take the crown from Loeb. The tactics are crap and you just don't see the element of real dirty competition that you used to see which is a shame. The cars aren't spectacular, the coverage itself is crap and the competiton isn't great. It just doesn't add up to particularly great viewing. And what's worse, the S2000 regs aren't going to improve things. Control tyres are a crap idea and doesn't work. When the guy who is winning on them and proving that he is the best turns round and starts saying that they are no good, along with other drivers, you haev to take notice. The FIA do a fantastic job in boosting safety but they have some seriously crap ways of managing sporting regulations for the building of cars and the running of series.

I am a massive fan of the WRC and rallying as a whole, but like has been previously said, it just doesn't get the TV coverage it deserves - its a much more entertaining sport than F1.

I hope that when Skoda return with their Fabia S2000, they get decent World class drivers this time round, not the old has-beens or young under-developed ones they used in the Fabia and Octavia WRC cars.They would have been much more competitive with top class drivers - lok at where Colin McRae was in Rally Australia in the Fabia WRC - 2nd o/all before going OTL whilst having the clutch replaced 2 stages from the end, and Carlos Sainz took 1st place in the Rally Shalymar of Spain in a Fabia WRC last year.Put Loeb or Solberg in one and watch it win.

Guys I dunno what your watching but there ain't too much wrong with Eurosports coverage (it can be late but it takes time to edit and have that day). You may say only the top guys get mentioned but thats the same everywhere, to a certain extend. Sure at the end of the day there are only a handful of WRC cars. An Irish Tarmac round would have a better field . No offence to that Abu Dhabi driver, but he's paying for his drive and he's at nothing. When raw talented guys stopped getting paid in F1 & WRC and guys paying for their seats came in the whole lot went pear shaped. IIRC theres only 3-4 actually paid drivers in the WRC.

Regarding TV its gonna get worse before it gets better, its simple someone has to pay for the coverage, and the TV companies are going to be looking for companies to do that, but with an economic downturn who in there right might its gonna come up with those type of reddies.

IMHO the only was is to CONTROL things, racing is closer and more exciting, eg WTCC, BTCC etc, weight penalties, etc etc

I hope that when Skoda return with their Fabia S2000, they get decent World class drivers this time round, not the old has-beens or young under-developed ones they used in the Fabia and Octavia WRC cars.They would have been much more competitive with top class drivers .

Unfortunately I think an underdeveloped and underfunded car was the main problem, especially with the Fabia. Gardermister was an excellent driver but just didn't have the equipment. McRae probably developed the car a bit with testing, and probably pushed it to its limits. Eugene Donnelly in Eire sees a lot of potential with the car but it need development. The Octy was too big when everyone was going smaller . Also at the end of the day its hard to compete with that 206 and Xsara, unstoppable.

Edited 10 September, 200817 yr by GAFF

Regarding Skoda in the WRC, I think their major problem was a lack of finance. They just didn't have enough to continually test and develop - the Fabia especially could/should have been much more successful than it was. VW see Skoda as their Rallying arm - so why didn't they back them with the cash?

People are moaning about a lack of coverage, but be honest - the action is hardly rivetting - one of the best, most spectacular Motorsports is now a snoozefest!! Cars look like they are on rails even on Gravel, get rid of the fancy trick diffs, paddle gearchanges, etc and have simple cheap but spectacular cars.

IMO S2000 doesn't go far enough; rally cars should be 2WD!

I love rallying has to be the best motorsport around but sadly i cannot see it lasting

I love rallying has to be the best motorsport around but sadly i cannot see it lasting

You're not the first person to have expressed this opinion. Sadly! A lot/most in fact - Manufacturers don't think it's relevant anymore - whereas Racing is.

My single biggest problem, over-competent cars and short events aside, is pace-notes. Driving unseen is a far greater challenge.

Hmm... I was a huge fan of WRC few years back when our own guy Marko Märtin was driving. After his horrific accident I haven't paid much attention to the sport because it basically lost all good drivers, I hate Loeb(frenchie...ugh) lost many teams and the sport itself is not interesting anymore.

Like AndyRAC wrote before me: The cars should get rid of all those fancyass differentials, electronics, flappy-paddle gearboxes and billion-dollar tyres and we'd see some serious improvements.

Imagine: Fully manual gearbox, no ABS, no LSD, no expensive tyres that could blow you if you wanted, no stability controls, no nothing! Only you, the car and the co-driver.

The trick diffs went several years back...

The tyres no longer have mousse in them which has actually made the spectacle worse because they have to protect the tyres more. They are now more akin to cut road tyres and this is a bugbear of both teams and drivers as it means that where before they would have cut a tyre to alter it's charectaristics to suit a particular stage, they are no longer allowed to do that. Result? Pussy footing...

The Safari is no more...

And i'm sorry, but what the F*** is wrong with pace notes? They've been there since the early days of the Floria Targa etc where you had guys like Fangio, Enzo etc...and that sport then evolved into F1 rather than rallying but the history shows that this is an inherent part of the sport. If you think that removing mousse, pace notes and power will make the sport exciting then I think you are wrong. We want spectacular driving. Mousse in the tyres means that drivers spend more time driving. You'd rather see the leader shoot back through the rankings because he spends 5 minutes at the side of the road, effectively removing him from proceedings? Spectacular driving comes with confidence. Driving the roads they do at the speed they do needs both knowledge, skill and confidence. Not having notes would not only be dangerous but lead to the drivers going slower. Again, less spectacular.

What would I like to see?

Stop drivers re-entering the competition after they have gone out via Super Rally. In principle it's great as it means that you see more of the drivers but it takes an element away from the competition and I know that it confuses spectators (I know several people who have commented on this to me).

Use Mousse in proper competition tyres, not glorified road tyres.

Remove all electronic aids.

Keep paddle shift.

4WD, maximum 35% to front wheels and set preloads for diffs to keep things reasonably loose.

Either Turbo'd cars or large engines with restrictors tp equalize power between cars. This may get other manufacturers involved if they have large engined cars as they may see it as more relevant.

I would also be tempted to create a lower weight limit which is higher than it is currently to perhaps entice in manufacturers with the bigger cars.

The R4 rally car which Colin McRae developed kept to the format that would work well. It was designed to not only be cheap to buy (compared to a wrc car) but also look spectacular whether driving or standing still whilst being easy to convert from track day to gravel rally car to virtual Dakar entrant if required. 2 or 4 wheel drive, mechanical diffs and no driver aids.

Personally I follow the baja series more as I feel that rallying has just lost the plot. I love watching Loeb drive but it would be great to see him with some competition other than Hirvonnen. There was talk of Gronholm perhaps coming out of retirement which would be awesome to see but I'm not sure how likely that is.

Little step changes to the rules always help the most successful teams, not the smaller ones and this is always the case, regardless of era or category of racing. Massive changes on the other hand usually increase competition as teams get to grips with the changes. I don't think anyone disagrees that things need to change but the question is, whether it's the technical regs or the actual sports structure.

In argument for changing the actual structure would be a wider variety of rallies but condensed into say keeping the same number overall. Bring back events like the Safari and real challenging routes like the old Oz loop where you saw really mixed and challenging terrain. The Acropolis is good as again, there is a big difference between that and the tarmac rallies. Mix events too, with tarmac and gravel which could create some interesting setups. Just now, the cars which suit gravel suit tarmac and you get very little change between the results at different events. Also, I would get rid of tarmac specialists etc and have the teams nominate their two drivers at the start of the season and limit the manufacturers championship points scoring cars to 3 at each event.

How often have you heard a driver say "I trusted my notes and they were wrong" as the reason for a big shunt?

How many man days and non-competitive miles could be saved by not spending several days on a recce? Those are costs of competing every bit as much as tyres are.

Also, I think you'll find that pace notes were invented by Stirling Moss as a replacement for actually knowing the road on the Mille Miglia, if you spend as long with Wikipedia as you did spouting about the mythical "Floria Targa" (I presume you meant Targa Florio?)

bring back the lancia delta evo intergrale (which ever way round its name goes)

and its job done lol!

i think its coverage. look at f1. we all know its on sunday, we all know what channel its -on, and theres repeats throughout the day.

i know rallying takes place on different days but put it all together on a saturday afternoon or evening (instead of fudging ant and sodding dec!) then im sure the veiwers would rise!

also it does need to be more simple. 2 drivers, 2 cars per team. if you crash your out of that stage. maybe put everyone back in for a super stage just for the crowds sake. limit certain driver aids and maybe spending as well to give everyone a chance, or as has been said weights to slow drivers, it works in the btcc.

im sure colin and richard would turn in their graves if it stopped completely!

Also, I think you'll find that pace notes were invented by Stirling Moss as a replacement for actually knowing the road on the Mille Miglia, if you spend as long with Wikipedia as you did spouting about the mythical "Floria Targa" (I presume you meant Targa Florio?)

Having read several biographies of the earlier drivers, inluding Enzo, there are a number of references to people having notes read out by their mechanics. Perhaps not as detailed as the current form in place but the idea was there. And yes, I did mean the Targa Florio but I don't think I was 'spouting about it' as you so kindly put it.

Cars are more like circuit cars than the good old days. Look at the lines Loeb takes compared to the Finns with their sideways style and you'll see what I mean.

Also think of the manufacturers who make four wheel drive turbo charged cars that compete in WRC - how many can you think off? (2 - Subaru and Mitsubishi).

How much longer can/will those two makes continue to produce a product which is being sold in fewer and fewer numbers?

The WRC has to embrace a formula that is much nearer to a production model that MOST manufacturers produce if it is to thrive or even continue.

Most cars are 2WD, WTC, BTCC, other national championships run 300BHP 2WD cars.....spectators watch in their thousands and the TV loves them!!

Most folks in rallying still rant on about the "F2" BRC of the md/late '90's - sorry folks but we KILLED off the Best formula and to my mind only pride/vested interests/"no going back" attitudes is stopping rallying being "outrageously competitive" and more attractive to the main stream media.

If you got rid of fancy 4WD transmissions and specialised metal engine parts and some of the "electronic" crap, keep them to 270 -280 BHP, a good solid 6 speed dog box and run them on fewer, longer events with better quality stages I reckon you'd get at least 8 - 10 manufacturers competing plus some good privateers with probably 25 - 30 top drivers and at least 10 of them with a chance of winning!!!

Good telly and top media - fodder!!

Get it Sorted FIA!!!!

Don't forget Citroen are on about pulling out too to go roundy roundy racing.

Cars are more like circuit cars than the good old days. Look at the lines Loeb takes compared to the Finns with their sideways style and you'll see what I mean.

Also think of the manufacturers who make four wheel drive turbo charged cars that compete in WRC - how many can you think off? (2 - Subaru and Mitsubishi).

How much longer can/will those two makes continue to produce a product which is being sold in fewer and fewer numbers?

The WRC has to embrace a formula that is much nearer to a production model that MOST manufacturers produce if it is to thrive or even continue.

Most cars are 2WD, WTC, BTCC, other national championships run 300BHP 2WD cars.....spectators watch in their thousands and the TV loves them!!

Most folks in rallying still rant on about the "F2" BRC of the md/late '90's - sorry folks but we KILLED off the Best formula and to my mind only pride/vested interests/"no going back" attitudes is stopping rallying being "outrageously competitive" and more attractive to the main stream media.

If you got rid of fancy 4WD transmissions and specialised metal engine parts and some of the "electronic" crap, keep them to 270 -280 BHP, a good solid 6 speed dog box and run them on fewer, longer events with better quality stages I reckon you'd get at least 8 - 10 manufacturers competing plus some good privateers with probably 25 - 30 top drivers and at least 10 of them with a chance of winning!!!

Good telly and top media - fodder!!

Get it Sorted FIA!!!!

Don't forget Citroen are on about pulling out too to go roundy roundy racing.

Excellent post, some good points raised.

Regarding the 4WD road cars, actually, only Subaru are in the WRC, Mitsubishi were rubbish and pulled out -but still have the GroupN car in the PWRC.

I too thought that the WRCars were meant to be based on Production cars, but I'd say they're more like Prototypes - you can't but a 4WD Citroen,Ford, etc

If it is to be Production based, then use what you can buy in the showrooms - that means Hot-Hatches.

Agree about the F2 cars, now they were Awesome!!! Especially when driven properly - the BRC was something else from 1997-2000. But even they were expensive - what Manufacturer is going to spend money on R&D, especially in the current economic climate.

I wouldn't necessary ban 4WD, but would limit the BHP one could have, e;g a 4WD 250BHP, FWD 300BHP.

WRC has become F1 in the stages.

It is far too expensive

therefore far too exclusive (or should that be the other way round?).

Short stages, limited traveling distance etc are all geared for the media, which the sport is not attracting.

Rally GB based around South Wales is a joke (no offense to Wales) - Bring back a 4 day event with 2 WD, over night stages, traveling the length and breadth of the UK. - then you will have something that is challenging and still "do-able" for the grass route clubman.

Killer Keilder at 3 am on a dark wet November morning, after 24 hrs of driving - bring it on!!!!

Edited 15 September, 200817 yr by slider

:iagree: - lose the "Rally of South Wales"!

:iagree: - lose the "Rally of South Wales"!

I thought it was still known as the 'RAC' (Rally Around Cardiff)

I agree with most things that have been said in this thread. I find WRC very bland and boring these days. Loeb is in a class of his own. The coverage is crap but that is probably partly because it is boring to watch. Crap coverage means there is little or no sponsor interest in the sport which means we have ended up with four factory teams (only two of which can win) and a load of gentelemen pay drivers and daddys boys making up the numbers.

In my opinion the proposed S2000+Turbo rules would be a good way to go, but it seems that the manufacturers can't agree on the specs and are doing everything possible to **** it up. If they don't get it sorted soon then we could be left with just a Subaru one make championship.

And Subaru are interested in the WTCC - we may be left with no Manufacturer teams!!

That might be what is needed for the F1A to realise they've ruined what was once an unmissable sport.

Rally GB/RAC Rally will never go back to the old days sadly - I've a feeling it's staying in Wales permamently. Just hope I'm wrong.