DSG or Manual?

[Q102]

My opinion, for what its worth

DSG can be confused in slow traffic, 10-20mph, it never knows what gear to be in.

Changes up very early (1500rpm), so in 5th gear at 31mph.

I live in Milton Keynes, so lots of roundabouts. I have noticed that it will be in 3rd/4th on entry to roundabout then changes up to 5th/6th as I exit. Apply the accelerator a bit more, kicks down to 3rd.

Generally like the gearbox, but not sure if it "learns" your driving style. Had mine 3 months and 8k mikes and it has never changed the way it operates:confused:

[richardjh]

i would say that the dsg gearbox does learn your driving style as the manual says, but it is subtle. with regard to comments about being in the wrong gear at times; the car doesnt know about the road you are on, what traffic situation you are next approaching or able to read you mind as to what you are about to do next. For me the slight annoyance of some 'silly' gear changes is outwayed by convenience and comfort of using an auto. Dont want to drive a manual and i dont think i would like going back to a slushmatic auto either.

I do think i would like it coupled to smooth V6 petrol though

[m0bov]

I believe leaving it in sport helps around town as it hangs on longer to each gear.

[bahnstormer vrs]

My opinion, for what its worth

DSG can be confused in slow traffic, 10-20mph, it never knows what gear to be in.

Changes up very early (1500rpm), so in 5th gear at 31mph.

I live in Milton Keynes, so lots of roundabouts. I have noticed that it will be in 3rd/4th on entry to roundabout then changes up to 5th/6th as I exit. Apply the accelerator a bit more, kicks down to 3rd.

Generally like the gearbox, but not sure if it "learns" your driving style. Had mine 3 months and 8k mikes and it has never changed the way it operates:confused:

I think this is a symptomatic problem with a lot of modern auto 'boxes, the tiptronic 'box in my wife's Roomster behaves in the same way.

I'd suggest that is due to the fact that they are programmed to be as economical as possible but this is to the detriment of 'driving control'. I tend to work (in wife's Roomster) on using auto in town when pootling around and then manual out of town, unless I want to drive briskly in town when I use the sport setting. I don't like using auto out of town as it often goes to 6th when I want to be in 4th/5th and then drops to 3rd when I want to accelerate when 4th/5th would be fine enough.

I have yet to drive a DSG 'box and intend to do so one day BUT on balance still prefer manual.

[Bassa]

I have yet to drive a DSG 'box and intend to do so one day BUT on balance still prefer manual.

Since you have not driven a DSG, I'd say your summary was far from "balanced". :confused:

As always it is 'horses for courses' and having driven both, it is the DSG for me every time. My 1.4TSi/ 7 speed DSG combination is a an absolute peach.

[bahnstormer vrs]

Since you have not driven a DSG, I'd say your summary was far from "balanced". :confused:

Balanced or not; I was merely suggesting that the gearchange characteristics of the DSG (as described by others in the thread) seem to be very similar to a modern, traditional slushmatic, tiptronic, auto. e.g. problems encountered are not unique to DSG.

I hope this clarifies ......... and not :confused:

[Fellwalker]

So you press the RES button, and CC resumes the previously set speed

So true, so that is what I did. But it's another step that is not necessary on a DSG. ;)

[Hauptmann]

Having driven a Golf with a DSG for two weeks in Germany, I was happy to get back into my manual Octy vRS. The DSG changes up too early and 'hunts' in moderate speed driving. If you want to drive for enjoyment (as opposed to getting from A to then there is absolutely no substitute for a manual gearbox - you just get so much more interaction with the car. This is quite apart from the added weight and enormous complexity of the DSG 'box, which would make me anxious about owning one out of warranty.

For people who sit in heavy trafffic everyday (I don't) or with bad legs etc., then DSG might make sense, but I don't think it has a place on a 'sporting' car. I suspect the used value of a vRS with DSG will be somewhat depressed compared to that of a manual. Auto's have traditionally be most in demand on small cars (popular with OAP's) or luxury cars - not sports cars.

Edited 2 September, 2009 by Hauptmann

[k.young]

Having driven a Golf with a DSG for two weeks in Germany, I was happy to get back into my manual Octy vRS. The DSG changes up too early and 'hunts' in moderate speed driving. If you want to drive for enjoyment (as opposed to getting from A to then there is absolutely no substitute for a manual gearbox - you just get so much more interaction with the car. This is quite apart from the added weight and enormous complexity of the DSG 'box, which would make me anxious about owning one out of warranty.

For people who sit in heavy trafffic everyday (I don't) or with bad legs etc., then DSG might make sense, but I don't think it has a place on a 'sporting' car. I suspect the used value of a vRS with DSG will be somewhat depressed compared to that of a manual. Auto's have traditionally be most in demand on small cars (popular with OAP's) or luxury cars - not sports cars.

I am not a "OAP" or am I infirmed in any way, I do an awful lot of miles (very few of them in traffic). All of my hobbies involve motorsport, I will concede that a manual would always trump the DSG on a race track but I have never taken my road car on a race track ( I use my Ducati for that). I use my car for munching miles on a daily basis and I like to do it in comfort but believe me.....when needed......the DSG is well able to do the business ! HORSES FOR COARSES.

[Hauptmann]

The problem with DSG, as with any auto really, is that it cannot predict what gear it should be in - it can only respond to the instantaneous speed/load conditions it experiences. Thus if I see an incline or curve coming up ahead then I can change down in my manual car and I'm already in the correct gear when I encounter the changed road conditions - this means that the car is better balanced. The auto has to wait for the road speed to drop and the load demand to increase before it downshifts. Its a futile argument really. Yes, like many modern driving aids the DSG makes for more relaxed progress in certain driving circumstances, but the trade-off is some loss of control. I covered 2000km in Germany (fairly free-flowing roads) in a Golf with DSG and for someone who enjoys driving it did blunt the experience somewhat.

[Bassa]

The DSG vs Manual has no definitive answer. It is purely down to personal preferences and any potential purchaser contemplating one or the other should fully try both before making any final decisions. We are all different in our expectations and needs but one thing for certain, the DSG is head and shoulders above any of the other automated manuals currently on offer. Just try the jerky Honda i-Shift or Toyota MMT to realise this.

[Evening Star]

Well, I'm a little nervous of picking up my new car, as it will be the first one with this type of gearbox (DSG) in it, so I'll be taking things very easy for the first couple of days while I get used to it.

I'm a bit worried I'm going to **** it up, but I guess I'll just have to wait & see.

[k.young]

The problem with DSG, as with any auto really, is that it cannot predict what gear it should be in - it can only respond to the instantaneous speed/load conditions it experiences. Thus if I see an incline or curve coming up ahead then I can change down in my manual car and I'm already in the correct gear when I encounter the changed road conditions - this means that the car is better balanced. The auto has to wait for the road speed to drop and the load demand to increase before it downshifts. Its a futile argument really. Yes, like many modern driving aids the DSG makes for more relaxed progress in certain driving circumstances, but the trade-off is some loss of control. I covered 2000km in Germany (fairly free-flowing roads) in a Golf with DSG and for someone who enjoys driving it did blunt the experience somewhat.

Don't forget you have the manual control if your driving in life threatening or even hilly conditions and the box (unlike other auto box's) WILL not intefere with your input !! After some time driving with it, you learn to control the box with the trottle/torque and this further minimises any hesitations that the inexperienced DSG driver might be confronted with !! Anyway enough of this tit for tat, lets all just enjoy our SKODA'S.

[Navman]

I've driven a 1.9PD with DSG for the last 4 years and covered just under 90,000, much of it on motorways and within the M25 area. It has been a fabulous package for me to allow 2-3 hour journeys to be completed with maximum efficiency and minimum pain. There is some learning to be done by the gearbox and the driver to become comfortable with this still fairly unique gearbox. I am a convert as many others are, however, there are 4 main areas you should be aware of:

1. The 6 speed box does result in a reduction of MPG (about 5 MPG in my car). You need to get the oil and filter changed every 40,000 miles (about 150 pounds).

2. The car will predict the most likley next gear. If you brake sharply for a roundabout (my previous car was a boxster) do not expect the DSG box to be ready for an immediate take off when you deftly step from brake to throttle. Use the manual selection or anticipate the less than 1 second delay.

3. With 6 cogs in the box (7 in the new petrol engines) there is some overlap in suitable gear ratios. If you drive in these boundaries expect the gearbox to "hunt" as you make small throttle changes. Again use of manual selection will sort this. I find this most in slow uphill traffic.

4. Parking is slightly different to start with as you need to modify you approach somewhat due to the brake pedal interlink with the system. Slightly off putting for about the first 3 weeks and then you never notice again as you park with utter confidence.

When I was buying the bigger engine diesel was a hoot to drive but extra thirst, tyres and purchase price did not meet my priorities. The new CR engines are another matter entirely - a significant improvement. I looked at another Octavia recently and could not find a petrol engined DSG to test. I now drive less miles so the brilliant new CR diesels do not make the extra outlay so tempting and the petrol set up works well in the VWs I have driven. Octavia drivers are a little more careful with their money and therefore the sales effort seems to go into the top and lower end of the range rather than the middle ground.

My DSG has been and continues to be excellent for my driving needs and style, and I never regret the extra expense (both purchase and running costs). I still enjoy driving manual cars and understand about the comments about "feel" as it is different with a DSG. I would argue that there is no less control and I am always glad to get back into my Octavia and smile inwardly as I watch to majority of the population pump their clutches and snatch at gear levers whilst my DSG takes care of business for me.

[jzc008]

There has been many valid opinions for both types of gearboxes in the above posts but in the end it's all down to personal preference.

Although I've never driven one I do like the idea of one and I expect the occaissional times when the gear it chooses is not necessarily the one you would choose yourself is outweighed by the convenience of the times when it gets it right.

The only things that disuaded me from choosing it were the additional costs, questions (possibly unfounded) about the long term reliability of a quite complicated device and also its not something I've had before so won't feel its loss.

If it had been only a couple of a hundred or so pounds extra cost and there was a six year warranty I think I would have easily be tempted to opt for one.

If however the development in electric cars really takes off though then all types of gearbox could be made obsolete.

[Chrispy]

Thought I'd add something to this as I had a test drive in both on Saturday - both CR TDI's.

Had a go in the DSG first, and this being the first DSG I'd driven but not the first auto I was curious as to how much better it would be. I was pleasantly surprised to be honest. Gearchanges were slick and almost undetectable unless you were watching the rev counter. But, being a manual driver it took some mental effort to 'let go' and not keep reaching for a clutch or gear lever should the engine revs dip too low like on a hill etc. And this takes me to the main reason why I wasn't all that keen in the end - it chose some really odd gears at times. Drive steadily and it rattles its way up so you end up in 6th at 40mph and the revs are at about 1500 where there is no real power.

Press the throttle a bit more and it tries to use the torque (non existant at these revs) to make the car pick up speed. Press harder and it still tries to use the power you don't yet have, floor it and it then does as you'd expect and drops down 2 cogs thus making the revs jump and you're off like hell.

If driving in a sedate manner I can understand why this hearbox encourages a calm driver - you're pootling along at such low revs it's quite serene but the gearbox cannot see what's coming down the road such as junctions and roundabouts etc, areas where you may normally use engine braking and a lower gear to approach and exit.

Put it in sports mode however and it's totally different. Instead it tends to hang onto a gear for ages on over run just in case you prod the throttle again and want another burst of speed. Again this did not suit my driving style as this is a diesel and the revs it put me in were a tad too high - I would have manually chosen a gear that put me in peak torque territory ready for the performance I needed, say at about 2k rpm. This thing chose just over 3k rpm and so this was the opposite end compared to non sport mode where the revs always seemed too low.

There was always the option of tiptronic where I could choose the gears manually and flick them up and down, but this almost felt like having a manual except I had to choose to go manual instead of auto to do this.

Overall, I found that the way it changed gears was quite impressive and kick down was very responsive compared to previous auto's I'd driven but it's choice of gears was quite extreme and never quite suited the road. Revs were really low if I was driving normally and really high if I put it in sport - no middle ground. At least that's the way it felt. Far better than the Merc and Passat auto's I'd driven before in terms of how smooth it was but very odd in it's choice of gears - uber economy at one end, rev happy at the other.

Getting into the manual afterwards felt like being back to normal, but then being a manual fan normally this is what you'd expect. Clutch felt light, changes were sharp and actually almost short shift like compared to the Fabia. You could almost flick the gear changes with your fingers with your arm on the arm rest. Very nice. Also though in the manual, you could feel the engines characteristics more like when the torque comes in and manipluate that more - this was a diesel after all. The DSG hides all that from you making it feel very linear and almost like driving an electric car. You could only hear what was going on, and of course see the rev counter doing it's thing.

Overall I preferred the manual as I thought I would, but I gave the DSG a fair shot and I was pretty impressed. Easy the best auto I've ever driven but being an enthusiastic driver that likes the feel of a diesels torque delivery I preferred the control of the manual.

[m0bov]

A good write up Crispy, I wonder if the petrol would be more suited to the DSG with a wider rev range but also with plenty of torque.

[Chrispy]

Quite possibly, although only when in sport mode. Low end of the rev range I'd have thought the diesel would have coped better but it insisted on keeping me at 1,500 rpm and chose the gears accordingly. Not sure how the petrol would handle this although I'd hope the gearbox would be tuned to deal with the petrol and keep the revs a tad higher.

If you drive somethng like an advanced driving course teaches you, 3rd gear is what you should be in at 30mph as opposed to 4th. I imagine this is so you have a bit of power on tap 'just in case'. The DSG would have you in 5th at this speed when driving normally - put it in sport and it might just get it right but then it hangs onto those revs a little too long.

Don't get me wrong, as an auto I really liked it compared to the others I've used (Merc C180 Komp, Passat 1.8T, Nissan Note 1.6 petrol....) but it wasn't quite my cup of tea.

EDIT - According to the top ten tips on the advanced driving website, using 3rd at 30 is so that your speed does not creep above that - it's more obvious when it does compared to 4th, or 5th as the DSG would use.

Edited 6 September, 2009 by Chrispy

[gaiusa]

question guys - are most of you on DSG 6?

I'm asking because I have DSG 7 and I'm very very happy with it.. it's always in right gear... though must admit that when I'm changing the style of driving. when going from cruising to speeding - it takes half of second to read my mind after that works fantastic..

maybe they've improved it a bit..

[Chrispy]

One I drove was only 6 speed and boy did it love 6th.

[Fen]

Excellent write-up Chrispy.

I'm really beginning to hate my DSG. I agree it's horses for courses and personal preference to a degree, but for my commute it's awful. I do about 50km on a quite single carriageway with a 100kmh limit so I leave the car on cruise at 105 or so, then I have 25km that is like an Alpine pass followed by about 35km of increasingly busy dual carriageway and a few kms of city centre to finish.

On the first part cruising along in 6th is fine, but on the hill the 'box is virtually undrivable in D as it's always predicted a change up when it needs to change down so you end up grinding to a near standstill then launching like a rocket (OK I exaggerate, but you get the point) - S has it screaming along near the redline constantly which is hardly the point of a diesel. Even in traffic on the dual carriageway it p's me off being the wrong gear loads when back in D and as for S see above re: the redline. I can shift it myself I agree, but then nudging an utterly non-tactile lever is hardly as satisfying as using a proper stick and clutch so if I'm going to change my own gears I'd rather have a manual, thanks.

I guess maybe the learning feature doesn't help me as the ECU sees periods of cruising along, periods of twists annd hills and then periods of traffic and "my" driving style changes for each one.

To the point regarding the DSG being like other autos in terms of the wrong gear I disagree - it is much worse because it has to predict the next gear. When it gets it right it's creamy smooth, when it gets it wrong it's like a learner is stamping on the clutch pedal. "Predict" is a bit rich also; if you're on the brake it readies the next lower gear, otherwise it's "predicting" the next higher, which is hardly intelligent.

Sadly it's really difficult to get a manual over here, especially on a "Euro" which is seen as a prestige car (even if it's a Fiat Panda!). The vRS FL is available as a special order in manual however, and at least they sell the diesel (in fact they only sell the diesel here now); Audi's diesel range is limited and VWs virtually non-existent.

[Fellwalker]

question guys - are most of you on DSG 6?

I'm asking because I have DSG 7 and I'm very very happy with it.. it's always in right gear... though must admit that when I'm changing the style of driving. when going from cruising to speeding - it takes half of second to read my mind after that works fantastic..

maybe they've improved it a bit..

I am now officially jealous. I wanted DSG 7 but they do not yet do it on a 2.0 diesel.

[Bassa]

question guys - are most of you on DSG 6?

I'm asking because I have DSG 7 and I'm very very happy with it.. it's always in right gear... though must admit that when I'm changing the style of driving. when going from cruising to speeding - it takes half of second to read my mind after that works fantastic..

maybe they've improved it a bit..

I'd second that, I believe the lighter 7 speed version removes some of the 6 speeder's reported indecisions. Very pleased with mine, best transmission I've had - and I've had some over the years.