Surely it's position to the offside for an LH corner and nearside for an RH, if all we're concerned about is maximising the range of our vanishing point (and not dealing with an idiot who's wanting past, or avoiding conflict with other vehicles)?

Surely it's position to the offside for an LH corner and nearside for an RH, if all we're concerned about is maximising the range of our vanishing point (and not dealing with an idiot who's wanting past, or avoiding conflict with other vehicles)?

Good spot that, Ken - I'm always getting my nearside's and offside's confused so I use the "edge" and "crown" of the road instead

Chris

No wonder you keep crashing into folk coming the other way

That is a good point, and it would be good to level the playing field. What "lesser" vehicle do you reckon should be the benchmark for setting speed limits? I'll nominate my lowly Panda

Chris

How about that 1950's car on crossplies again?

How about that 1950's car on crossplies again?

Ok, but I want to pick the 1950s car.

Surely it's position to the offside for an LH corner and nearside for an RH, if all we're concerned about is maximising the range of our vanishing point (and not dealing with an idiot who's wanting past, or avoiding conflict with other vehicles)?

Yes Ken your right. Thats what I meant to type but all the typing was giving me a headache! :confused:

Approaching the bend I would be looking for warning signs, painted lines on the road, shell grip on the road, the black and white arrow signs on the corner, vehicles going into the bend, and if possible hedgerows, lamposts to try and establish how sharp the bend was, the road conditions including the tarmac, weather and any signs of diesel spillage, cyclists, pedestrians, limit point, can I see through the bend?

then process this information, mirror checks, position to the nearside if left hand bend to better my view, offside if right hand bend NOT crossing the lines, reducing spped by braking in a straight line then selecting a nice flexible gear before the bend and using the accelerator to maintain a safe speed round the corner being able to stop in distance I can see to be clear, using accelerator sense to ensure the cars engine is slightly pulling the car round the corner and keep the car stable, and as the limit point opens up accelerating when it is safe to do so - scanning the road ahead and behind. :eek:

If your are really concentrating on your driving especially on roads you don't know and taking in all the hazards you should find you get tired fairly quickly. Lots of people nowadays use the sub-conscience to drive, whilst using mobiles, shaving, putting make up on and thinking about what they are having for tea just looking at the car immediately infront of them, and when they get to their destination they probably wouldnt remember much about the drive.

This really shows the difference between people. To me this post is an interesting exercise in theoretical analysis and a nice bit of rationalisation, but nothing more. Some people will require less conscious effort (or less concentration if you will) to perform the same task as effectively as another.

If one performs the same (or similar) tasks over and over again, the brain will streamline itself to expend less energy in the future on this task. However at the peak of my abilities I may be less effective than another human being with a different level of experience due to inherent genetic differences between us affecting our brains and nervous systems.

People with less natural ability can compensate through education, repetition and exerting a higher level of concentration to a degree. I have never analysed these issues to this degree but yet have not crashed (or caused a crash to my knowledge) once in 9 years on some of the worst roads in Europe! At the same time I usually maintain relatively high speeds on the public roads and often push my cars to their physical limits. I have never done a driving course but would not rule it out in the future.

I know people who have taken part in advanced driving courses. I am sure it has improved them and been beneficial to them however I would not feel confident with them pushing on in a vehicle at all. This is simply down to the massive variation in peoples natural abilities to shine at a particular task. All of the warning signs will be sub-consciously read and processed by some, others would be better off going slower into the same bend because this same reading and processing of information requires a slower conscious effort on their behalf.

Opinions? Let the flames commence! Bring it!

It's a very good point. Not sure if you know of the history, but Roadcraft was originally introduced because of the number of accidents police drivers were involved in. It defined "the System of Car Control" which is a system of dealing with hazards that is safe, methodical and leaves nothing to chance. The idea being that they could compensate for people with lower abilities provided they follow the System. This is essential when you have a bunch of people who need to do huge miles, potentially at high speed, and under great pressure.

Now turn to the civilian driver - do they need it? Probably not. Would most of them benefit from it? I would probably say so. Do most of those who do a short course and think they're driving gods? I suspect a fair more do than we would like!

Imho, the number of accidents someone doesn't have is not a measure of how good a driver they are. After all, you might be incredibly lucky or rely on fantastic reactions

So how would you measure how good your driving is? Perhaps comparing what you're seeing and doing to how a more experienced driver would do it? Perhaps comparing some journey statistics for two runs, average speed, fuel economy, pulse rate ?

Don't get me wrong, natural ability comes into it, but even the best drivers in the world have room for improvement and seek coaching

Chris

Ok, let's ignore differences in how high they sit, and hence any variations in the vanishing point that are caused by changed in eye height.

It makes no difference whether you're my sister (who is marginally competent at best), Sebastian Loeb or Michael Schumacher; the distance from your eyeline to the vanishing point remains constant, and hence so does the highest speed that a given vehicle can negotiate a given corner safely.

It makes no difference whether you're my sister (who is marginally competent at best), Sebastian Loeb or Michael Schumacher; the distance from your eyeline to the vanishing point remains constant, and hence so does the highest speed that a given vehicle can negotiate a given corner safely.

Doesn't that depend how the speed is set though? If the criteria is picking a speed such that *you* are able to stop in the distance you can see to be clear, etc, there will be differences based on braking ability and reaction times imho

Chris

i used many roads on our holiday this week and came back the scenic route, think only one corner i braked a bit late, but every corner i came to (on roads i havent been down) i could read the speed from markings on the road (paint and tyre), the vanishing point and any signage that was there.

Doesn't that depend how the speed is set though? If the criteria is picking a speed such that *you* are able to stop in the distance you can see to be clear, etc, there will be differences based on braking ability and reaction times imho

Chris

Agreed in principle, but I think differences in total reaction time are low compared with total stopping time when speeds are low enough for vanishing point range to be a factor in selecting a genuinely safe speed. The ability to influence a vehicle's behaviour with the brakes might be a factor, but a small one given the commonality of ABS these days.

The ability to influence a vehicle's behaviour with the brakes might be a factor, but a small one given the commonality of ABS these days.

Are you saying that your sister can brake as effectively and accurately as Messrs Loeb and Schumacher?

Chris

@Chris

I feel I have much room for improvement and could potentially be a better driver as you say. I also notice that as I get older and more mature(?), my average speed over a journey becomes a little slower. I think my natural ability would be in the upper percentile group but also know that training could make me a safer driver on the public roads.

You have me thinking about these courses now! Probably a very worthy thing to promote.

@Ken

Your black and white, laws of physics approach works well in a computer game or indeed on a race track, but not really in real life on the public roads does it? You seem to be focusing in on only one aspect. There is a bigger picture than the correlation between the distance to the vanishing point and the speed. I think you are grossly underestimating natural ability's role IN THE EVENT OF THE UNEXPECTED. I don't think a simple mathematical formula is the answer.

If you are running on the limits of lateral grip, as Chris has stated some day your luck may run out or your reactions may not be enough to save you or the other incompetent coming around the opposite way in the middle of the road, with a cigarette end burning their leg, talking on their mobile and meditating! I'm not afraid to concede a point here and there mate! That's how we learn at the end of the day is it not!

Edited 28 August, 200916 yr by gocfella
OCD....

At the same time I usually maintain relatively high speeds on the public roads and often push my cars to their physical limits. I have never done a driving course but would not rule it out in the future.

I think my natural ability would be in the upper percentile group

but yet have not crashed (or caused a crash to my knowledge)

Yet being the operative word - accident waiting to happen:rotz:.

It's amazing the number of muppets that drive to the limit of their cars round blind corners without thinking about "the tractor round the bend" or the "cattle on the road". Vanishing point / limit analysis is essential in making safe progress

@ Burnsey

I agree I think?

But I don't really follow the mish-mash of unrelated, out of context quotes you have used?

BLIND being the operative word in your post, I would certainly never be on the limits of lateral grip going into a blind corner on a Public Road if that is your inference?

This Vanishing point analysis happens sub-consciously with natural drivers does it not? If you have to stop and analyze consciously then you better slow down in general

Also this analysis while being essential in a blind bend (as I previously acknowledged) is only one part of a complex process. I like to think of it in IT terms, some people have

"bottlenecks" which limit the speed at which they can safely do something. This something could be chopping vegetables, driving, controlling air traffic, etc......

Edited 30 August, 200916 yr by gocfella

Are you saying that your sister can brake as effectively and accurately as Messrs Loeb and Schumacher?

Chris

You've got that backwards; I'm saying that I don't believe they can brake significantly more accurately and effectively in a car with a modern 4-channel ABS.

@Ken

Your black and white, laws of physics approach works well in a computer game or indeed on a race track, but not really in real life on the public roads does it? You seem to be focusing in on only one aspect. There is a bigger picture than the correlation between the distance to the vanishing point and the speed. I think you are grossly underestimating natural ability's role IN THE EVENT OF THE UNEXPECTED. I don't think a simple mathematical formula is the answer.

If you are running on the limits of lateral grip, as Chris has stated some day your luck may run out or your reactions may not be enough to save you or the other incompetent coming around the opposite way in the middle of the road, with a cigarette end burning their leg, talking on their mobile and meditating! I'm not afraid to concede a point here and there mate! That's how we learn at the end of the day is it not!

You have me completely backwards I think! I am saying that I drive to the vanishing point, which has nothing to do with limitting grip unless you get a tight corner with a very open sightline. In fact, I instance a real World example of a corner where the limitting grip is obviously constant, but the vanishing point speed changes depending on which way you're going.

You've got that backwards; I'm saying that I don't believe they can brake significantly more accurately and effectively in a car with a modern 4-channel ABS.

What evidence are you basing that on?

Chris

What evidence are you basing that on?

Chris

How comparitively easy it is to obtain consistent stops in a car with 4-channel ABS against one with no anti-lock provided you don't overheat the brakes.

How comparitively easy it is to obtain consistent stops in a car with 4-channel ABS against one with no anti-lock provided you don't overheat the brakes.

Isn't that down to technique though? We're often told that the quickest way to stop an ABS equipped car is to stand on the middle pedal. So there we have our first problem - different people can (and do) apply different pressure in a panic situation. However, having the wheels unlocked for us increases stopping distance, so perhaps an F1 driver could stop the car using "threshold" braking as well as maximising the pressure. Andy Walsh does a lovely demonstration of just how much difference this makes in his Bending the Rules DVD.

We've also got how quickly the driver detects there's something wrong and reacts to it. Most F1 drivers have lightning fast reactions thanks to 200mph being a fairly normal speed to them.

That's my theory anyway - if we can find a tame racing driver and pit her against your sister, I'd be interested to see the results.

Chris

I know about threshold braking, but it takes practice, and gets difficult in really "good" systems, where you can scarcely feel the ABS modulation kicking back.

I know about threshold braking, but it takes practice, and gets difficult in really "good" systems, where you can scarcely feel the ABS modulation kicking back.

Something a highly skilled driver would have no problems doing?

Chris

Something a highly skilled driver would have no problems doing?

Chris

Something any competent and interested driver could and should learn (even by teaching themself) to do IMO. Of course, that's where getting my sis involved would probably fall down.