Haldex 4 v's Torsen diff/Quattro?

[Llanigraham]

in my experience torsion feels more planted and predictable at the limit. others may find different. also get less understeer now.

I presume you mean TORSEN?

Have you driven the Yeti with Haldex 4?

[kenny]

Yeah I will go back to school for that typo due to it being a problem

And no I haven't

[Llanigraham]

And no I haven't

So if you haven't driven one how can you compare it or comment on how it responds?

[kenny]

i was merely putting up a comment about previous versions as they had been brought up in this thread, i did not comment on the latest version as i havent driven it. you should maybe read what i had actually written 1st as apposed to trying to be smart. i think you will clearly see at no point dit i type yeti!

for other more friendly briskoda users, what Gen does the 2010 tiguan use? as we are looking at buying one

[Tech1e]

Kenny,

Tiguan is Gen4.

Im with you, in all honesty having driven lots of both and been on Allroad driving instruction the permamnent torsen system providing drive to or four wheels is always going to be better than a 2wd system that has an additional 2wd when the car thinks it needs it, like someone said its reactive so it going to need to lose grip before it was regain it.

We live out in the country and the only thing moving out here are land rovers..lol

[Yeti_Man]

"it did make me wonder what advantages this 'premium' full time 4wd system has over our Haldex 4 system?"

This was the original question from me. Having owned Haldex gen 2 and gen 4 Id say that most of the differences you mention are actually present in Haldex 4. I really must try a torsen setup for myself in the near future.

[Allams Skoda]

We live out in the country and the only thing moving out here are land rovers..lol

Until they break down, at least they are easy to fix.

[The Plumber]

i was merely putting up a comment about previous versions as they had been brought up in this thread, i did not comment on the latest version as i havent driven it. you should maybe read what i had actually written 1st as apposed to trying to be smart. i think you will clearly see at no point dit i type yeti!

for other more friendly briskoda users, what Gen does the 2010 tiguan use? as we are looking at buying one

Believe the Tiguan is the same GenIV system

Having driven both Tiguan and Yeti in 140 CR 4x4 guise I personally prefered the Yeti (obviously), felt more responsive and drivable. The other thing that put me off the Tiguan besides it's size (to long for me) being the interior; looked and felt more dated than my previous and older Golf V 4motion. One plus point for it though is a slight increase in ground clearance and ride height, therefore the view forward and to the side is very good. Oh I also liked the fact the sill covers are attached to the door rather than the sill itself.

TP

[kenny]

Kenny,Tiguan is Gen4.Im with you, in all honesty having driven lots of both and been on Allroad driving instruction the permamnent torsen system providing drive to or four wheels is always going to be better than a 2wd system that has an additional 2wd when the car thinks it needs it, like someone said its reactive so it going to need to lose grip before it was regain it.We live out in the country and the only thing moving out here are land rovers..lol

ah well i have driven a Gen4 then, i found it good hence why we are looking at buying one

Thanks mate you put it into words better than i could last night lol was tired, little 10week old was doing her best to keep me that way i need to admit i find the Haldex pretty good too but just prefer the predicatbility of the Torsen. you know what is going to do as it does it all the time. each to their own i quess. also i dont think grip levels are hugely greater in Torsen but with you i do find it better.

"it did make me wonder what advantages this 'premium' full time 4wd system has over our Haldex 4 system?"This was the original question from me. Having owned Haldex gen 2 and gen 4 Id say that most of the differences you mention are actually present in Haldex 4. I really must try a torsen setup for myself in the near future.

to be honest mate both are good systems and cetainly served me well up in scotland over the years. as above i dont think you will notice a huge difference but handling tends to be more uniform in torsen due to power always being on all 4 rather than it swaping about. less understeer also seems evident on my torsen cars. no matter what type you have 4wd and winter tyres in this weather is head and shoulders above any 2wds but not much use if ur stuck behind someone who cant move :( lol

[EdmundBlackadder]

As a non techie type I have been following this with interest. I suspect we are close to getting to a which is better, Nike or Adidas situation? The answer is of course neither, it is up to you. The differences are probably too close for most people in most situations to judge and so it comes down to personal preference rather than absolute fact. If you are driving over snow covered fields etc then maybe one is marginally better but for most drivers both types of systems are currently propelling people around the country much better than standard 2wd versions and that is all you need.

Kenny - Best of luck. My two are still young enough for me to remember the 10wk stage, you could not pay me to go through the sleepless nights again. The only good thing I can say is they do grow out of it, honestly.

[ginandtonic]

 In a "traffic light grand prix" on a road, then my guess would be that a permanent 4x4 system would have the edge, since it's putting power to all 4 wheels directly, rather than waiting for slippage to occur. 

But for most drivers, under most "real world" conditions, I doubt there would be much difference. A Haldex coupling, plus ABS brakes, plus clever software, means you can almost replicate the behaviour of three locking diffs for less cost and with less weight.

Having previously owned a Land Rover 90 Defender many years ago (which had an old-fashioned locking central diff), the Yeti feels just as good in terms of traction. In this bad weather it's been out in deep snow, slush and ice, and it's just gone chugging straight through all of it. I've never actually noticed if or when the Haldex was doing it's thing, which is surely the point. It just kept on going.

Edited 22 December, 2010 by ginandtonic

[Yeti_Man]

 In a "traffic light grand prix" on a road, then my guess would be that a permanent 4x4 system would have the edge, since it's putting power to all 4 wheels directly, rather than waiting for slippage to occur. 

But isnt that the whole advantage of haldex 4 over 2; its pre emptive so as it sees the revs rise it will already have the power split between the axels? This certainly seems to be how it works to me. On the Haldex 2 cars you'd physically spin the fronts for just a milisecond and then the power would split. On the Yeti my fronts never seem to loose traction.

[CEPi]

Gen4 Haldex works on reverse too. Supposedly the Haldex now splits power withing 1/8'th of the wheel spinning, so much faster reaction then previous generation.

[foo]

But isnt that the whole advantage of haldex 4 over 2; its pre emptive so as it sees the revs rise it will already have the power split between the axels? This certainly seems to be how it works to me. On the Haldex 2 cars you'd physically spin the fronts for just a milisecond and then the power would split. On the Yeti my fronts never seem to loose traction.

As I understand it , H2 uses the differential speed between the two drives haft parts to generate the hydraulic pressure needed to engage the clutch. H4 uses an external source (which is always ready to go) of pressure to engage the clutch so reacts much faster.

So it is pre-emptive in the sense that the potential energy needed to engage the clutch is always there, rather than generated on demand.

Regardless... I am sure this discussion will roll on.

[ginandtonic]

But isnt that the whole advantage of haldex 4 over 2; its pre emptive so as it sees the revs rise it will already have the power split between the axels? 

Depends on how the Haldex control software is set up. My understanding was that the "default" behaviour of the system was to divert power when it noticed a difference in wheel speed - but it does this *very* quickly (since there's a pressure reservoir already charged by a separate pump).

However, it's all controlled by software. It's entirely possible that the "off road" mode could tell the Haldex to partially engage even when still, or if there's no slippage. Or when you give it a big throttle opening. Unless you have access to the detailed technical specs this is all just descending into guesswork :-)

Anyone up for taking their Yeti on a track day to see how it handles at the ragged edge?  :-)

[kenny]

Kenny - Best of luck. My two are still young enough for me to remember the 10wk stage, you could not pay me to go through the sleepless nights again. The only good thing I can say is they do grow out of it, honestly.

ha thanks she is generally really good to be honest but late evening is definately a grumpy time lol just wait till the teething begins then back to square one for me lol

Gen4 Haldex works on reverse too. Supposedly the Haldex now splits power withing 1/8'th of the wheel spinning, so much faster reaction then previous generation.

so does that mean octavia scouts on Gen 2 are only 2wd in reverse? so could get stuck easier if needing to reverse out of a parking space say? :(

[CEPi]

ha thanks she is generally really good to be honest but late evening is definately a grumpy time lol just wait till the teething begins then back to square one for me lol

so does that mean octavia scouts on Gen 2 are only 2wd in reverse? so could get stuck easier if needing to reverse out of a parking space say? :(

Haldex says so, and many people who came from Gen2 to Gen4 confirmed. I also disabled the TC a few times in reverse in snow, got my wife out of the car to chill her brain, and all 4 wheels spinning in reverse.

[kenny]

Haldex says so, and many people who came from Gen2 to Gen4 confirmed. I also disabled the TC a few times in reverse in snow, got my wife out of the car to chill her brain, and all 4 wheels spinning in reverse.

good info to know. so FL scout has Gen4? was considering one for myself and if its true would definately need to get a Gen4

[Yeti_Man]

Fascinating discussion!

And I wouldnt say no to some track time in the Yeti even if its just to see what its ultimately capable of.

[CEPi]

Yes Scout FL has same Gen4 as Yeti.

[erikiri]

Anyone up for taking their Yeti on a track day to see how it handles at the ragged edge?  :-)

During last couple of weeks I have visited 3 times special 2.3km long and quite tricky icetrack (double-track for rally stages), where everyone can practice ice-driving skills or test the behavior of car for small fee. So I´ve got to know behavior of 4x4 Yeti with normal nordic type studded tyres (street-legal here in Estonia) pretty well. I new that Yeti is well-balanced and easy to drive when pushing hard, but it was still surprise how predictable and controllable the car is on ice and hard-packed snow. To be able to have fun, I had to disable all electronic devices totally, otherwize ESP and ABS would have slowed me drastically and cut the controllable sliding fun. There are several fuses controlling ABS system and sensors. First I removed the one in slot F4, but that resulted in loosing also rear wheel drive.. Next attempt was ABS control unit fuse from slot F25 in engine compartment fuse box. As a result all ESP/ABS/TCS/EDL disappeared, but car was still 4WD – perfect set-up for ice-track With 4th generation Haldex I have never felt that front wheels must slip to have some power in rear. I would say that if you push the throttle/accelerate, there is by default 4wd engaged instantly.

For maneuvering in really deep snow, on the edge of getting stuckked, the best set-up is to have all fuses in place, but to switch off traction control from the button. Then there is little bit extra wheel spin allowed and EDL devides traction well between left and right wheels, where it is most useful at the moment.

[Trekker]

During last couple of weeks I have visited 3 times special 2.3km long and quite tricky icetrack (double-track for rally stages), where everyone can practice ice-driving skills or test the behavior of car for small fee. So I´ve got to know behavior of 4x4 Yeti with normal nordic type studded tyres (street-legal here in Estonia) pretty well. I new that Yeti is well-balanced and easy to drive when pushing hard, but it was still surprise how predictable and controllable the car is on ice and hard-packed snow. To be able to have fun, I had to disable all electronic devices totally, otherwize ESP and ABS would have slowed me drastically and cut the controllable sliding fun. There are several fuses controlling ABS system and sensors. First I removed the one in slot F4, but that resulted in loosing also rear wheel drive.. Next attempt was ABS control unit fuse from slot F25 in engine compartment fuse box. As a result all ESP/ABS/TCS/EDL disappeared, but car was still 4WD – perfect set-up for ice-track With 4th generation Haldex I have never felt that front wheels must slip to have some power in rear. I would say that if you push the throttle/accelerate, there is by default 4wd engaged instantly.

For maneuvering in really deep snow, on the edge of getting stuckked, the best set-up is to have all fuses in place, but to switch off traction control from the button. Then there is little bit extra wheel spin allowed and EDL devides traction well between left and right wheels, where it is most useful at the moment.

Thanks erikiri for reporting your interesting test results.

Knowing which fuse to unplug to disable the intrusive computers from interfering with the fun-driving.

Switching off traction control in snow making the 4WD work more effectively was also useful to know!

I wonder if the Yeti 4WD system is really running pre-emptively or if the response times are just much lower than the Haldex 2 system...

[Sanqhar]

During last couple of weeks I have visited 3 times special 2.3km long and quite tricky icetrack (double-track for rally stages), where everyone can practice ice-driving skills or test the behavior of car for small fee. So I´ve got to know behavior of 4x4 Yeti with normal nordic type studded tyres (street-legal here in Estonia) pretty well. I new that Yeti is well-balanced and easy to drive when pushing hard, but it was still surprise how predictable and controllable the car is on ice and hard-packed snow. To be able to have fun, I had to disable all electronic devices totally, otherwize ESP and ABS would have slowed me drastically and cut the controllable sliding fun. There are several fuses controlling ABS system and sensors. First I removed the one in slot F4, but that resulted in loosing also rear wheel drive.. Next attempt was ABS control unit fuse from slot F25 in engine compartment fuse box. As a result all ESP/ABS/TCS/EDL disappeared, but car was still 4WD – perfect set-up for ice-track With 4th generation Haldex I have never felt that front wheels must slip to have some power in rear. I would say that if you push the throttle/accelerate, there is by default 4wd engaged instantly.

For maneuvering in really deep snow, on the edge of getting stuckked, the best set-up is to have all fuses in place, but to switch off traction control from the button. Then there is little bit extra wheel spin allowed and EDL devides traction well between left and right wheels, where it is most useful at the moment.

Removing fuses !! makes you a Yeti "Maestro".

tom

[CEPi]

I read somewhere the default power to wheels in Skoda Yeti & FL Scout is 98% front and 2% back. So in some way 4x4 is always on.

[Trekker]

Can somebody make a little movie clip of the Yeti losing traction in snow/ice so we can see how soon the rear wheels get driven?

It sounds like the 4WD computer program is in Blue mode for the Yeti - ie, running pre-emptively which would be better than reactively...

I was thinking of I would get the Blue/Orange change to the 4WD computer software somebody mentioned to ensure 4WD was always active when driving in winter, but perhaps that's not even necessary! --somebody post a clip of their Yeti 4WD operating in snow please - we need a definitive answer on this one!