I have no problems with mine but through choice I use the paddles about 80% of the time just because it's more fun. In auto I have NO hesitation, NO jerkiness, and NO hesitation at roundabouts. I knew of the potential problems before I bought it and I've taken a chance. Personally I don't like the scaremongering going on here lately, not just from DSG but other things too. If you what if'd all the time you'd buy nothing and do nothing

+1

Have the 1.2 tsi dsg and I never had any trouble with any hesition issues. Do alot of stop/go driving here in south Wales valleys. I drive a works van all day and changing between manual and dsg on daily basis I have not observed any hesitations. Like all previous posts it how u learn to drive it. Only thing I find is after swmbo has driven it I find it a bit jerky but I put that down to her not being fully used to it as she not driven over 20 years so it learns the driver style of driving. As for dsg is being unreliable sorry but every car model on the road can have some sort of issue.

In auto I have NO hesitation, NO jerkiness, and NO hesitation at roundabouts.

OK, on that basis would you accept that if someone DID have a hesitant car then it could be faulty?

OK, on that basis would you accept that if someone DID have a hesitant car then it could be faulty?

This is getting silly. I love DSG so much that I will never again buy a car without it. Obviously wja96 has a hangup (obsession?) about it. How many people on here have actually had to have a DSG box replaced?

Edited 7 December, 201114 yr by yetifabia

Also worth noting that almost every magazine review of a dry-clutch DSG equiped car notes the roundabout hesitation thing, which happens when the car is driven onto a roundabout without having stopped - my guess being the gearbox is in 3rd with 4th pre-selected, but the sudden throttle pressure changes the selection to 2nd hence approx 1s throttle lag (by design) then another .6s delay on the box?

Also worth noting that almost every magazine review of a dry-clutch DSG equiped car notes the roundabout hesitation thing, which happens when the car is driven onto a roundabout without having stopped - my guess being the gearbox is in 3rd with 4th pre-selected, but the sudden throttle pressure changes the selection to 2nd hence approx 1s throttle lag (by design) then another .6s delay on the box?

The hesitation thing I'm describing happens when the car is driven away from a standstill, not on the move. I'm not aware of it being mentioned in reviews and the Audi S-tronic MasterTech at my local dealer assures me it's a sign of a defective mechatronic unit.

But you keep on being one of the 90% of owners who don't have a problem and I'll keep on being one of the 10% warning everyone else not to buy a used one without a copper-bottomed warranty.

This is getting silly. I love DSG so much that I will never again buy a car without it. Obviously wja96 has a hangup (obsession?) about it. How many people on here have actually had to have a DSG box replaced?

Yes, it's getting silly. You love DSG so much you are blind to it's faults. That's OK. You call it an obsession. I call it a mission.

I can direct you to plenty of posts where people have had DSG and S-tronic (the Audi name for DSG) gearboxes repaired under warranty. Many of them poo-pooed warnings before they bought their cars and raved about the speed and smoothness of their shifts but then changed their tune when the gearbox went bad.

On the TT forums they actually have a DSG dealer confidence test. You get your car to the dealer and ask the technician to reverse it into a tight gap between an R8 V10 and an S8. If they give up, you win a new mechatronic unit.

wja96: I havent read all the posts in this thread, but can you describe in detail what faults you are experiancing (and on what vehical)

Thanks! if you can be consice and to the point, and give an example situation, I would be appreciative

I just want to get an expanded view of potential problems I intend to keep mine for a while (100k) or maybe buy another before then, but am interested in others experiances , mine had been perfect so far, but I'm very wary of keeping past warrenty ! (hence the keep mine/buy another...)

I just want to get an expanded view of potential problems I intend to keep mine for a while (100k) or maybe buy another before then, but am interested in others experiances , mine had been perfect so far, but I'm very wary of keeping past warrenty ! (hence the keep mine/buy another...)

TBH accounting for basic expected repairs in 5 years (brakes, a/c compressor, exhaust) then with the deals available there's not a lot of financial benefit to keeping a car beyond warantee even in that best-case.

I honestly thing most people would be surprised by just how much the ECU, DSG and all the other electronic brains in a modern car monitor, calculate and adapt.

This is a constant process and will only stop adjusting when it reaches a preset maximum or minimum level. If you drive gently and with hesitation it learns this and begins adapting to this behaviour, you then lose confidence in the car and become more hesitant, the car monitors calculates and adapts. This cycle continues until it reaches its preset limits.

I have based this upon observations of how my car adapts to the driving it has seen. After a couple of weeks of gently stop starting its way to work and back I can feel it taking longer and not accelerating with the full Mr Hyde persona, its only giving 80% Hyde and 20% Jekyll.

Now if we stick to scientific principles and start with the assumption that your statement is correct and that this is the first sign of mechtronic unit failure what would we expect.

That the change would be consistent or we would see further degradation of the response time of the gearbox.

Now carrying out an experiment if the car is driven hard for an extended run it appears to learn this new more aggressive driving style and adapts to it.

This result does not appear to be consistent with the expected results based upon your theory.

Now do I expect my DSG to last for ever? No it will have been designed to average a set life cycle. Almost every engineering component is now designed to do a job to a given level for a given time.

Is repairing a DSG gearbox going to be expensive? Yes the more complicated something is the exponentially more it’s going to cost when it goes wrong.

Do I think some people have been misled with DSG? Probably very few dealers/salespeople these days really understand the cars they are selling let alone the technology within them. I also suspect that none of them have owned one of these cars as there own car bought with hard earned money and drive it accordingly. Hence they will never have experienced the gradual learning nature of the car or the spiral of decent that follows the loss of confidence.

Yes, it's getting silly. You love DSG so much you are blind to it's faults. That's OK. You call it an obsession. I call it a mission.

I can direct you to plenty of posts where people have had DSG and S-tronic (the Audi name for DSG) gearboxes repaired under warranty. Many of them poo-pooed warnings before they bought their cars and raved about the speed and smoothness of their shifts but then changed their tune when the gearbox went bad.

On the TT forums they actually have a DSG dealer confidence test. You get your car to the dealer and ask the technician to reverse it into a tight gap between an R8 V10 and an S8. If they give up, you win a new mechatronic unit.

LOL...ur not the only one wja96. I love DSG on the move its fantastic,makes driving effortless but from a standing start/roundabout situation the perceived hesitation has soured my vRS experience. The comments about learning to use DSG, lazy driving techniques etc are frankly insulting. There are enough interweb comments on this subject from all areas of the automotive industry to realise that this is an issue...

My experience from a standing start at a roundabout goes like this..

In DRIVE...It's impossible to modulate the throttle, without lag or wheelspin So i just make sure when setting off from a roundabout i have a massive gap, and apply the throttle like i am trying to stand on an egg without breaking it...

In SPORT...NO HESITATION, I have throttle control which allows a fast take off without losing traction (my driving technique doesn't change from DRIVE selection, sorta BLOWS the IT'S YOU comments out of the water...)

If people have issues about their vehicles they should be able to express their concern/experiences on the forum without other members who have no issues trying to keep them quiet with comments about driving styles,laziness,scaremongering etc...

Nope I've not been back to my dealers yet, why, because i feel a bit of a tit in trying to explain that i can detect a 0.5m/s delay from pressing the throttle to my car actually moving off...

My gearbox has twice in the 3mths of ownership, not responded when selecting reverse from drive...it just doesn't move, revs increase..maybe this is the start of a mechtronic fail??

I honestly thing most people would be surprised by just how much the ECU, DSG and all the other electronic brains in a modern car monitor, calculate and adapt.....

I'm sorry, but I don't understand your argumentation. On one hand, I am told that I am not driving the car properly. On the other hand, I am told that the car will learn my driving style.

You appear to be suggesting that VAG have designed a gearbox that will allow the car to wait, with the throttle depressed, at a road junction, for anything up to one second because it thinks that's how I want to drive it? I rather doubt that.

Where you may be correct is in suggesting that certain driving styles place more stress on key components than others, but again, that is not my experience over a very high mileage on several different cars with multiple drivers.

If you need to drive the gearbox like you stole it for it to work as most people would expect then VAG should say that in the manual. They don't. They also sell these gearboxes in cars that are not designed to be driven aggressively. They tell you to drive it as you would a torque converter automatic, so I would leave it in D with my foot on the brakes at junctions and traffic lights. The European Chief Gearbox Engineer in told me in 2005 to drive it like a manual, so get it into N at the earliest opportunity when the car isn't moving and back into D only when I wanted to move the car. He also told me how to access Snow mode which is to put the car into Tip mode then disengage the ESP. That locks the differential in 1st and 2nd gear and starts the car in 1st or 2nd depending on the engine/gearbox configuration.

I'm not anti-DSG, completely the opposite. Until you have experienced the gearbox failing you don't necessarily spot the symptoms and when people tell you you're not driving it right you start to query yourself. Is it your imagination that it feels jerky or lumpy at low speeds? No, it's not. Get ack to the dealer and help VAG improve by registering your unhappiness with the gearbox and also get it repaired.

VAG in the US offer a 10 year warranty on these gearboxes or no-one would buy one used, such is the level of issues and unhappiness.

wja96: I havent read all the posts in this thread, but can you describe in detail what faults you are experiancing (and on what vehical)

Thanks! if you can be consice and to the point, and give an example situation, I would be appreciative

I just want to get an expanded view of potential problems I intend to keep mine for a while (100k) or maybe buy another before then, but am interested in others experiances , mine had been perfect so far, but I'm very wary of keeping past warrenty ! (hence the keep mine/buy another...)

Car 1: VW Golf PD140 GT DSG. 54 registration. Total mileage run 120,000 miles in 3 years. Car was initially fine, then became sluggish at junctions. The gearbox was reset which helped. The car again became sluggish at junctions. The car was reset again and this time it did not improve. The car then refused to reverse up slopes. The mechatronic unit was replaced and all was well again. Then the car had a gearbox software update and it became lumpy at low speed, refused to reverse up slopes again then refused to drive smoothly in first. The whole gearbox was replaced at 70,000 miles. I then had a further mechatronic unit at 100,000 miles after another dose of kangaroo diesel like jerky take-off. Car was returned to VW at the end of the lease at 120,000 miles.

VW dealer told me that DSG was much better on the new Passat, so I had one of those next.

Car 2: VW Passat PD170 SEL DSG. 57 registration. Total mileage run 135,000 miles in just over 3 years. The car was jerky at delivery but smoothed out after a software reset by the dealer. 1st mechatronic unit was replaced at 10,000 miles. Clutch packs were replaced at 35,000 miles. Car again started to refuse to reverse up slopes and was sluggish at junctions. A new mechatronic unit was fitted at 50,000 miles. The car was also detuned by VW to 155bhp. I had no further issues after the detune which led me to believe the torque/power of the PD170 was giving the gearbox problems.

Car 3: Audi TT 2.0 TTS DSG roadster 59 registration. Owned by my solicitor from new. At 15,000 miles the car was extremely jerky at low speeds. Close-up parking was nearly impossible. The dealer refused to accept there was a problem until the technician was invited to park it somewhere between two cars and they refused to even attempt it. Audi Customer Services authorised a new mechatronic unit and the problem was resolved.

I don't think that there are people here who believe DSGs are a perfect achievement of engineering and electronics and do never fail. What was actually suggested though is that some people may be a little confused with what the DSG can and can't do... I support this out of personal experience as I too believed in the first days of ownership that the round-about (while moving, not standing!) behavior was a little strange. And then I realised that what I was asking it to do would be pretty impossible and that I would have never driven like this If I had a manual, so it all got sorted with me preparing my moves just a little earlier (as I had been doing for years with my manuals).

I repeat, I don't believe there are no problematic units, there was even a mass DSG recall in USA in 2009 (don't remember If it was about the 6 or the 7 speed). I just think that the some of the cases described here are just caused by the driver's lack to adapt in his new box and some advice as the ones that have been provided (switch to manual etc.) could be well used, instead of instantly throwing the: "Oh, what did you expect? Its DSG!!! Its broken already!!!". Actually I would be very supporting to someone who really has a broken box, but without trying what other people have done first in similar occasions he would never know If it actually was the box or himself would he? So please, let some advice be heard without condemning the box, a lot of people have already sorted their "problems" from it.

PS. (OFF Topic). @wja96 Sorry I just noticed your signature and couldn't resist... So, you've had a Golf with a problematic DSG gearbox, then a Passat with a DSG also havin' issues and now you bought a vRS which only comes with (oh crap) a DSG gearbox!!! Doesn't that sound perverted???

I did this short vid a while back of a normal approach to roundabouts... I take off with instant response from a slow 5mph roll, then have to stop, then take off with instant response from standstill...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TJHT8HED3I

i repeat: I have no delay when using "drive"

nockmeister: you say you have to move aay either massively slowly or like a scolded rat... do I not move away in an "average" way here?

Hello

I've answered you direct question in your post and I have explained the logic and engineering reasons below

I'm sorry, but I don't understand your argumentation. On one hand, I am told that I am not driving the car properly. On the other hand, I am told that the car will learn my driving style. Not exactly what I ment, the car will learn how you drive and adapt to that, however your expecting it to adapt to suit your driving style its adapting to protect its self from your driving style.See 1 below

You appear to be suggesting that VAG have designed a gearbox that will allow the car to wait, with the throttle depressed, at a road junction, for anything up to one second because it thinks that's how I want to drive it? I rather doubt that. I wouldn't surprise me as it would be exactly how I would design it see below for reasons

Where you may be correct is in suggesting that certain driving styles place more stress on key components than others, but again, that is not my experience over a very high mileage on several different cars with multiple drivers.

If you need to drive the gearbox like you stole it for it to work as most people would expect then VAG should say that in the manual. They don't. They also sell these gearboxes in cars that are not designed to be driven aggressively. They tell you to drive it as you would a torque converter automatic, so I would leave it in D with my foot on the brakes at junctions and traffic lights. The European Chief Gearbox Engineer in told me in 2005 to drive it like a manual, so get it into N at the earliest opportunity when the car isn't moving and back into D only when I wanted to move the car. He also told me how to access Snow mode which is to put the car into Tip mode then disengage the ESP. That locks the differential in 1st and 2nd gear and starts the car in 1st or 2nd depending on the engine/gearbox configuration.I would seriously question how much the person writing the manual actually knows about the car as it often happens that the person that designed and engineered the componenet and the person writing the manual have never even spoken to each other

I'm not anti-DSG, completely the opposite. Until you have experienced the gearbox failing you don't necessarily spot the symptoms and when people tell you you're not driving it right you start to query yourself. Is it your imagination that it feels jerky or lumpy at low speeds? No, it's not. Get ack to the dealer and help VAG improve by registering your unhappiness with the gearbox and also get it repaired.

VAG in the US offer a 10 year warranty on these gearboxes or no-one would buy one used, such is the level of issues and unhappiness.

I'll start off by stating the assumptions I'm making. I'm looking at this from a supportability and reliability enginneering point of view.

While I can't say for 100% this is how DSG works I can atleast explain why I believe it works this way and why I believe that this is consistant with the experiances of the often posted issues.

Work hat on

DSG like everything will have early failure units and other random failures through out its life which happen with anything these are the base failure level you just have to accept.

There is then also the induced failure and part life cycle failure. These can be predicted through FMECA, Accelerated life cycle testing and other methods.

Now given VAG suggest that all DSG gearbox's are good for 120,000 miles we can use this as our base line target.

Now we take the design of the DSG gearbox and identify what components we would expect to fail befor the gearbox has reached its 120,000mile lifecycle target.

Gears - Solid metal old proven technology likely to make it to target life

Case - Solid metal component likely to make it to target life

Bearings, shafts etc - Likely to make it to target life.

Clutch - Consumable item Least likely component to make it to target life.

Control unit - Second least likey to complete target life. (this is just a gut instinct as I dont' have proper data to work from)

We have now identified the most likely failure points that will lead to the gearbox not completing its 120,000 mile before failure. Now its time to look at what causes these components to fail and any mitigation or corrective actions that can be taken to provent this.

1 Clutch - The higest ware rate of the clutch is partial engagment and slippage, this will reduce the life of the clutch and lead to a failure. How can we reduce the ware rate of the clutch, by preventing or reducing the amount of time the clutch is partialy engaged. When would a clutch be partialy engaged, during gear changes and slow speed manovering. We then look at setting verious rules for the control software of the DSG to ensure that the time that the clutch spends partialy engaged is reduced. This would be done by having monitoring logic etc the electronics will then identify the times that partial engagment is triggered and adjust other operating paramiters of the DSG. Specific example if the logic detected that the clutch's were being engaged then disengaged then re-engaged while at low speed with small throttal inputs it would adjust the required settings to trigger the clutch engagement. One of these adjustments could be to encrease the duration that the throttle has to be activated for before the clutch is engaged, it could also increase the amount of throttle that has to entered. These adaptations are designed to increase the life of the clutch packs. This would be how I would design the software to ensure that the gearbox and more specificly the clutch packs last of the required life of the gearbox. There is also other considerations such as the maximum values that you can allow the software to adjust to for various reasons but in the interests of the life of the gearbox the software would be given the ability to adjust the values up to these maximum values

work hat off

I hope that some of you can appreciatte the point I'm making and that you find it helpfull. I can only give my suggestions and explinations on why I believe the above to be how and why the DSG opperates the way it does. I have never been involved in any design or engineering work related to DSG gearbox's.

I did this short vid a while back of a normal approach to roundabouts... I take off with instant response from a slow 5mph roll, then have to stop, then take off with instant response from standstill...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TJHT8HED3I

i repeat: I have no delay when using "drive"

nockmeister: you say you have to move aay either massively slowly or like a scolded rat... do I not move away in an "average" way here?

What I'm talking about is a hesitation that is probably one second or less. You cannot capture that with a video, I'm sure I could produce a similar video, but I can perceive the hesitation, which spoils my driving experience of the car!

It would require gearbox speed sensor/ABS sensor/throttle sensor data comparison to determin the lag/hesitation/pick up issues..

Yes, I adapt my driving now at roundabouts...I don't go for gaps which I could safely make in my previous car.

Again, I want to love this car...

PS. (OFF Topic). @wja96 Sorry I just noticed your signature and couldn't resist... So, you've had a Golf with a problematic DSG gearbox, then a Passat with a DSG also havin' issues and now you bought a vRS which only comes with (oh crap) a DSG gearbox!!! Doesn't that sound perverted???

It's a Mk I manual diesel. No DSG for me any more. I'm almost certainly going to go Mercedes next time around as they do a dual clutch "automatic" that doesn't seem as fault-prone as DSG. SLK 250D and C250D estate probably. It's a shame as I really love the rest of the VAG package.

No brand is perfect. I can't believe that the failure rates can be very high with the DSG, so having had two duffers statistically the chances are very much in your favour of getting a good one next time - even if the 3-yr failure rate were 50%!

Edited 8 December, 201114 yr by pearce_jj

No brand is perfect. I can't believe that the failure rates can be very high with the DSG, so having had two duffers statistically the chances are very much in your favour of getting a good one next time - even if the 3-yr failure rate were 50%!

The failure rate is about 10% according to data published by ADAC in Germany.

Statistically the chances of my getting a bad gearbox are the same as anyone else, what I had before has no bearing on the build quality of my next gearbox.

If people have issues about their vehicles they should be able to express their concern/experiences on the forum without other members who have no issues trying to keep them quiet with comments about driving styles,laziness,scaremongering etc...

So agree with you here.

And I'm speaking as one of the minority DSG owners with a hesitation problem whether I'm driving it or my wife is. If some DSG units have this and others don't then there is an issue that needs addressing. Because, yes, when it's working it's good, but when it's not, when it hesitates, it's frankly dangerous!

Has anyone had the issue recognised by their dealer and sorted by them?

And, in passing, I notice the Honest John review notes the hesitation also.

Honest John

Edited 10 December, 201114 yr by banksider50

The failure rate is about 10% according to data published by ADAC in Germany.

Statistically the chances of my getting a bad gearbox are the same as anyone else, what I had before has no bearing on the build quality of my next gearbox.

The latter is true, but the chance of having three bad in a row..., 1000:1 by my reckoning!

EDIT - or is that 10% pa? As then, would it be about 25:1?

Edited 10 December, 201114 yr by pearce_jj

As I have already explained I suspect what you are complaining about is a clutch pack protection design feature.

Also Honest Johns explanation of the fault makes no sense as without any fuel the engine would stall not hesitate.

I also have these delay issues in my 105 TSI. I also drive a VW Transporter 140PS 7 speed dry clutch DSG which has no problems at all.

Tech1e (Skoda God) seems unusually quiet about this issue. Does he know something and is he holding back?

This could make your Christmas

I have had a DSG update this week and the car is transformed.The delays and hesitations at roundabouts etc have virtually gone and I find I am hardly using the Manual mode anymore (except going up and down hills)

My car was built 8/2010 and has now done 22k. Maybe later cars have this update already which is why some of us complain of Hesitations and some do not.

The car actually went in as my EPC light came on a couple of times. This was fixed by fitting an additional shim to a valve on the Turbo. They also did a software update for a potential cold running unevenness which I hadnt experienced.

The Service bulletins or TPIs are

EPC fault 2025569/3

Cold running 2025583/4

DSG 2027607/1

This could make your Christmas

I have had a DSG update this week and the car is transformed.The delays and hesitations at roundabouts etc have virtually gone and I find I am hardly using the Manual mode anymore (except going up and down hills)

My car was built 8/2010 and has now done 22k. Maybe later cars have this update already which is why some of us complain of Hesitations and some do not.

The car actually went in as my EPC light came on a couple of times. This was fixed by fitting an additional shim to a valve on the Turbo. They also did a software update for a potential cold running unevenness which I hadnt experienced.

The Service bulletins or TPIs are

EPC fault 2025569/3

Cold running 2025583/4

DSG 2027607/1

I'll get mine booked in next week to have the updates