There's no legislation it's just common sense. 90% of modern cars are capable of doing speed limits on all UK roads. As far as I'm concerned if conditions are perfect is is absolutely no reason no to stick to the limit. If the driver isn't capable of doing the limits then perhaps they should consider the retraining. I ALWAYS stick to the two second rule and I'm not going into the details on how I sum up an overtake either.

I seriously don't have time to be stuck behind slow people trying to get the best mpg. I couldn't care less. I bet I do better mpg than the person I inevitably get stuck behind chugging along in 5th at 25mph than I would actually doing limits. If you're smooth and gentle with the throttle and anticipate well in advance imo you save a decent amount of fuel and you get to your destination on time. I find it fun going from bend to bend only barely touching the gas while keeping momentum and maintaining the speed limit.

I can see the difference between a tractor/lorry/bus etc which is **** slow and has no choice but to do 30mph and a car that is doing 30mph on a nice clear 60mph road for no reason.

If/When I catch a slow moving vehicle as annoying as it is sometimes, I just sit back and wait for a gap which never normally takes long to be honest. I have learnt form my younger years sitting 2 inches from some ones bumper gets you no where fast. :wonder:

I did get a bit high tempered this week when I was following a car doing 35mph in a 60mph limit, nice clear evening. I kept back and waited for a nice clear bit of road, as I pulled out and got level with him he floored it like a ****. I broke hard (nothing behind me luckily) and pulled back in behind only for him to slow back down. What a cool guy

THIS! x10000

Martyn, you seriously need to consider undertaking a Defensive Driving Course, because your attitude to the use of the road and other road users is terrible. Your second paragraph above is an excellent example of that.

And so you can criticise me, I'm the person who normally drives around between 5 and 10 mph below the national limit, rarely using my brakes because I am reading the road and traffic well in front of me. I also happen to be Rapid Response trained by the Ambulance service, and hold a RoSPA certificate. And on my one hour, 48 mile commute to work I normally average around 49mpg.

Slightly off topic but has anyone ever seen a minimum speed sign? I know they are mentioned in the highway code but have never come across one.

Blackwall Tunnel for starters.

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Martyn, you seriously need to consider undertaking a Defensive Driving Course, because your attitude to the use of the road and other road users is terrible. Your second paragraph above is an excellent example of that.

And so you can criticise me, I'm the person who normally drives around between 5 and 10 mph below the national limit, rarely using my brakes because I am reading the road and traffic well in front of me. I also happen to be Rapid Response trained by the Ambulance service, and hold a RoSPA certificate. And on my one hour, 48 mile commute to work I normally average around 49mpg.

My attitude is terrible? Let's see I rarely break a speed limit, I only overtake when it's safe to do so and will NEVER overtake on blind bend, double whites or anywhere dangerous. Overtaking isn't a bad thing at all and to think it is in anyway is silly. I always keep a two second gap which often gets taken by someone else cutting me up. Sure I like to make progress but I'm not doing it illegally and I'm sure most of the people here do too. Gone are the days of being young and reckless and needlessly speeding. Driving at ten tenths is asking for trouble on public roads. Believe me if you want but that's up to you. CBA to defend myself anymore when I don't feel there's any need. As for economy on the commute it's about half an hour one way and even in my vRS I get 38-40mpg which is good for that engine considering the power and it's still running in.

I was looking at doing advance driving courses well before this thread, back last year since I know there's always more to learn but so far there's conflicting opinions on what courses to do, IAM or other ones, etc. Wanted one that's actually useful. Some I've heard have seemed a bit patronising which is what I really don't want. Even when I was learning to drive I was taught to make progress, do speed limits, etc and that's what I want to expand on if I did some kind of advance training. I did ask my old boss' husband about advance driving courses and he's a traffic cop and what the best one to do was. I did write it down I'll have to find it. I guess we all have our ways of driving and what works for one person doesn't work for another. I like my methods and for now I'll stick to them.

This thread has gone majorly OT as these types of threads always seem to so sorry to the rest of you

Martyn,

This was the sentence that struck me as you needing further training:

I seriously don't have time to be stuck behind slow people trying to get the best mpg. I couldn't care less

Especially the last 3 words. Perhaps now you have explained yourself better.

I started going with the IAM, but very quickly gave up when I got comments about not driving when it was snowy, or in fog! I don't get a choice in those matters; if I don't get to work the trains don't move!! I then went with RoSPA who are now called something else. Found them to have a much better attitude and not so anal. I wonder whether that was because in general they were younger (and that from an old fart!!) I think the best bet is to try both and see which suits. With the IAM you either pass or fail, with RoSPA you are graded bronze, silver or gold.

Iv been thinking about some kind of advanced driving for a while, my dad does it on his bike and raves about it. I don't know where to start though.

Quick question, Graham, do you ever sit at the speed limit?

Quick question, Graham, do you ever sit at the speed limit?

More importantly why do you feel the need to sit 5-10mph below the limit? As you say you have been response trained, hold a Rospa certificate which presumably means even at the nnational speed limit you still have an adequate safety margin (provided of course the road and weather conditions allow it).

When I did my bike and car IAM test I was expected to be at the speed limit if the road and weather conditions allowed. On many stretches of the windy twisty roads this was not possible and I said as much during my commentary or when questioned by the examiner. On other stretches I maintained the limit or at least within a couple of mph of it (under, not over)as indicated by my speedo. Given most speedos under read sitting 10mph below the limit, as indicated on your car could actually mean you are 15ish mph below the limit which to cars behind wishing to make progress can be frustrating.

The pushee becomes blameless when he is driving at an appropriate speed for the conditions, whatever that may be.

If the pushee is driving at an appropriate speed for the conditions then the original question is mute.

The pushee decides to speed up to try and stop the pusher from getting too close then that is his choice. If he is speeding as a result then that is also his choice.

Even though the pusher is following too closely there is no reason for the pushee to break the law.

If the pusher is choosing not to overtake then surely he is showing he is happy with the speed of the vehicle he is following?

OK, so if I'm driving my ancient SEAT at 40 mph in an NSL in very wet conditions through some woodlands, because I know from past experience that that's the best I can safely do in that car without being unable to maintain control should a deer sprint across my path, you'd say I was driving reasonably? Even though a Yeti could safely do 60 mph in the same conditions, as you have much better braking on a modern Skoda than in an ancient SEAT?

And you missed my point for the choosing not to overtake - the pusher is tailgating, regularly dropping into low gears (or possibly neutral - can't tell when you're the car behind) to rev loudly, and otherwise trying to "encourage" the slow car to go faster, even though (as proven by the fact that I could overtake both cars safely in one manoeuvre) they could choose to overtake instead. They're demonstrating by their driving that they are unhappy at 35 mph in a 60 limit, yet they are choosing not to overtake when it's safe to do so. Are you seriously suggesting that in such a case, the slow car is the danger?

Iv been thinking about some kind of advanced driving for a while, my dad does it on his bike and raves about it. I don't know where to start though.

Quick question, Graham, do you ever sit at the speed limit?

Yes, sometimes, but it depends where I am.

Around here, rarely.

If I'm on a motorway I normally sit at just under 70 indicated.

For training I would see which Group is in your area. If they are both there then try them and see how you get on with them. As I said earlier I first went with the IAM but their response to driving in snow appeared silly to me (Don't go out!!) especially when you consider that with 4x4 Response that is one of the main times we are out, plus I have to get to work.

More importantly why do you feel the need to sit 5-10mph below the limit? As you say you have been response trained, hold a Rospa certificate which presumably means even at the nnational speed limit you still have an adequate safety margin (provided of course the road and weather conditions allow it).

Because I don't need to go any faster.

Because with the roads around here that gives me time to react to things.

Because I plan my journeys to give me plenty of time to get where I need to go.

When I did my bike and car IAM test I was expected to be at the speed limit if the road and weather conditions allowed. On many stretches of the windy twisty roads this was not possible and I said as much during my commentary or when questioned by the examiner. On other stretches I maintained the limit or at least within a couple of mph of it (under, not over)as indicated by my speedo. Given most speedos under read sitting 10mph below the limit, as indicated on your car could actually mean you are 15ish mph below the limit which to cars behind wishing to make progress can be frustrating.

Compared to my sat nav, my speedo reads 5% slow, so an indicated 60 puts my sat nav at 57. That appears to be fairly constant. At 30 it is more out.

I doubt I rarely hold anyone up, considering the roads around here. In fact, more often or not I am having to slow down. Perhaps if I was using good roads all the time I would keep my speed up.

===========================

What this latest discussion perhaps proves is that in reality it is difficult to compare what is or isn't "Safe" or "Correct" without actually knowing the roads that are being used. Martyn is possibly using much more open roads than I am, ditto Matt. Perhaps if Martyn came up here to commute he might find he would be driving differently, and vica versa.

The one thing I would say is that getting extended training is never going to be a bad thing, who ever you are or where ever you are. I also hope no-one has taken any of this personally as it has never been my intention of it being meant that way.

Iv been thinking about some kind of advanced driving for a while, my dad does it on his bike and raves about it. I don't know where to start though.

As Llanigraham says, check out what you have in your area and try them out. I did not like the first IAM group I went to, just didn't get on with certain personalities or how they ran things, so went elsewhere (lucky to have had a choice) and found it much better. Not tried Rospa, when I approached a group up North years back it was all a bit standoffish and took ages to get reponses to my emails, so punted to the IAM after that.

When I started doing further training on my bike it really opened my eyes. I have been on ride outs with various police forces and IAM groups, every time I find something new or a better way to look at things. I felt my car driving improved as a result of that so I went on to do the IAM car test as well. What I have found is among nearly all the advanced motorists I have spoken to or been out with is a desire for continual improvement, I have never met one that would be of the opinion they new it all.

Because I don't need to go any faster.

Because with the roads around here that gives me time to react to things.

Because I plan my journeys to give me plenty of time to get where I need to go.

What this latest discussion perhaps proves is that in reality it is difficult to compare what is or isn't "Safe" or "Correct" without actually knowing the roads that are being used. Martyn is possibly using much more open roads than I am, ditto Matt. Perhaps if Martyn came up here to commute he might find he would be driving differently, and vica versa.

Fair enough on the reasons, I do get the feeling however that if someone was stuck behind you there would be sufficient space ahead for them to get an overtake in safely.

So much in driving can depend on the roads, our familiarity with them, the vehicle we are using and our individual confidence, knowledge and experience. I will generally stick close to the limit if I feel comfortable with it, on new roads I am morer wary. Currently running in a new car, on new tyres, new brakes and in extremely varied weather conditions we are having I probably find myself doing about teh 5-10 under the limit anyway, also giving myself loads of room up front.

Where I used to live I had a 30 mile commute along some great roads around Loch Lomond, I had been using those roads for years so new them very well, the car I had was not a sporty one but I new how it reacted and so I was faster in that my my current vRS. Take me somewhere new and I will undoubtedly be the one holding people up, the difference though is that I will be aware of those around me and give them opportunities to get passed. I am sure that many on here will have the same courtesy to others.

Maybe there would be far less issues of red mist on the road if people were polite and could admit their mistakes.

Fair enough on the reasons, I do get the feeling however that if someone was stuck behind you there would be sufficient space ahead for them to get an overtake in safely.

Maybe there would be far less issues of red mist on the road if people were polite and could admit their mistakes.

Of course there is also the possibility that I will have realised that said person is behind me well in advance, so might have actually slowed down slightly at a safe place so said person could overtake me safely.

Remember that forward observation also means being aware of what is behind you as well.

And that last sentence is so true!!

My roads are fairly open but with some twisty bits too but I do know them well, know where all the bad parts are etc. Commuting into Swansea is a nightmare anyway as it's wall to wall traffic and you hit 30mph if you're lucky. The drive to Ammanford is different though. There's a few good places to overtake if need be and can be planned well in advance. You've picked out my "couldn't care less" comment but it relates to my economy and nothing else. Bought my current car to enjoy more and not for saving too much fuel. Today I went out for a spin with my brother up to Penderyn, Brecon and back down past Dan Y Ogof. Was going to go further up but it was really foggy and in those conditions it was almost impossible to do even NSL. Time and an place and all that. Once I came off the mountain top the fog was gone, roads were dry, very few cars on the road so was safe to do limits again. The Penderyn road is fantastic as when it's clear you see of miles around, very few blind bends and as long as you're wary of the sheep it's a fun road. Think it's hard to sum up what is best and gjlb sums it sums right I think. Local knowledge and confidence in your vehicle helps a lot. I make better progress on my local roads than say I was doing all the way up the A483 a few weeks ago going up to Preston. Been on the road before but wasn't sure of all the corners, still getting used to the car at the time, it was wet etc so was taking it easy.

I know some of the roads up by your way and normally go for a spin up to Rhayader, stop in Llanidloes for a rest then double back onto the A44 back to Aberystwyth at least twice a year, especially if it's dry it's my preferred route to Aber. It's a nice road. The ones that are further up past that lake is narrow, single track so speed varies there. Wasn't that the one those kids went off the road a few months ago?

What you said about IAM is the same reason that put me off. I want to learn more about making progress and how to have better control in adverse conditions. As you say if it snows you have no choice you still have to drive so IAM was pretty useless to you. How much does RoSPA cost? As I've said before I'm all for learning more and we all learn all the time. I know I don't know everything yet and I bet most on the forum could learn more about certain aspects.

With my previous IAM group up in Glasgow, there was no issue with driving in the snow. The way I take the advice not to drive in adverse conditions is that it applies 'if possible'. Sometimes people need to go somewhere, but then sometimes the roads really are too bad, it is a personal decision and you have to take into account the local advice at the time.

I don't think IAM or ROSPA will be able to give much training in car control, for those you may be best with skid pan training or guided track days. IAM is predominantely about driving to the police 'System' and being aware of all that is around you. As I said before, give them a try, take it with a pinch of salt but if you don't like the group then try a different one if possible.

Some good points being made on both sides here, but the overall theme coming through is that it's all about attitude. Any advanced driving organisation will want to sort that out before any technical car control issues are tackled. Advanced driving is about being safe, systematic, smooth and progressive, in that order. Safety is paramount, and progress comes last of all, as a result of fulfilling the other categories. The more advanced drivers tend to have more "contrast" in their driving - faster in the fast bits, slower in the slow bits. It's about observation, prioritising hazards, and driving according to the conditions. Other drivers driving more slowly than optimum progress, are just another "hazard" to deal with. Be courteous, leave a considerate gap, overtake when safe.

OK, so if I'm driving my ancient SEAT at 40 mph in an NSL in very wet conditions through some woodlands, because I know from past experience that that's the best I can safely do in that car without being unable to maintain control should a deer sprint across my path, you'd say I was driving reasonably? Even though a Yeti could safely do 60 mph in the same conditions, as you have much better braking on a modern Skoda than in an ancient SEAT?

And you missed my point for the choosing not to overtake - the pusher is tailgating, regularly dropping into low gears (or possibly neutral - can't tell when you're the car behind) to rev loudly, and otherwise trying to "encourage" the slow car to go faster, even though (as proven by the fact that I could overtake both cars safely in one manoeuvre) they could choose to overtake instead. They're demonstrating by their driving that they are unhappy at 35 mph in a 60 limit, yet they are choosing not to overtake when it's safe to do so. Are you seriously suggesting that in such a case, the slow car is the danger?

I don't believe I missed the point, but accept I might have misunderstood it. I believe the slow car in front initially caused the problem but car 2 Is adding to the situation by harassing the slow car in front.

My roads are fairly open but with some twisty bits too but I do know them well, know where all the bad parts are etc. Today I went out for a spin with my brother up to Penderyn, Brecon and back down past . Been on the road before but wasn't sure of all the corners, still getting used to the car at the time, it was wet etc so was taking it easy.

You may know your local roads well and think you know where all the bad bits are but what if something unexpected happens? Are you driving at a speed appropriate to the road? Can you safely stop on your side of the road in the distance you can see ahead?

It makes no difference whether you know the road or not, you should still drive to the limit point (if you do not know how this works, IAM or RoSPA will help you) and within the capabilities of your vehicle.

I know the kind of roads that Graham drives to work and back, as I have been to his part of Wales on many occasions, and I can tell you that if he is driving 5 to 10 mph below the limit he is making good progress and on most of the roads you would struggle to catch him up quickly or overtake!

The A44 is not a good example but great fun to drive. For my money I think RoSPA may be the better option for you but if IAM suits then any training is better than none.

Either way go for the one you enjoy more as it makes the learning process easier.

I know some of the roads up by your way and normally go for a spin up to Rhayader, stop in Llanidloes for a rest then double back onto the A44 back to Aberystwyth at least twice a year, especially if it's dry it's my preferred route to Aber. It's a nice road. The ones that are further up past that lake is narrow, single track so speed varies there. Wasn't that the one those kids went off the road a few months ago?

What you said about IAM is the same reason that put me off. I want to learn more about making progress and how to have better control in adverse conditions. As you say if it snows you have no choice you still have to drive so IAM was pretty useless to you. How much does RoSPA cost? As I've said before I'm all for learning more and we all learn all the time. I know I don't know everything yet and I bet most on the forum could learn more about certain aspects.

I don't believe I missed the point, but accept I might have misunderstood it. I believe the slow car in front initially caused the problem but car 2 Is adding to the situation by harassing the slow car in front.

So, in the event that you can safely overtake without difficulty, you would still expect the car in front of you to speed up to a speed that your car is safe at, but theirs is not, just because you cannot be bothered to overtake, even when there is no oncoming traffic and you can do so without risk? And if they don't accelerate to a speed at which they are dangerous, they share the blame for your refusal to overtake when you can do so safely?

That's basically what you're claiming - in the situation I'm thinking of, I was able to overtake both cars safely in one manoeuvre in my ancient SEAT - the Skoda would have had no trouble. Remember, you don't know why the car ahead is going slowly; based on your claim that tractors are OK, even though they also go slowly, you appear to be assuming that they're doing so simply because they want to, when it might be for good reasons (e.g. gearbox problems stopping them going into high gears).

I'm not getting into the "what if" scenario too much. Granted you should be wary of the unexpected but even the most experience drivers can be caught out but something random. If you "what if" all the time on the road you'd never drive. It's about assessing risk through experience, knowledge and common sense. I'm also not saying that it's possible to keep to the limits on our welsh roads even on bright sunny days but I try to keep to the NSL (providing it's the limit for that road) as much as possible and that's the fun part of it.

As I'll explain for my thought processes behind an overtake (on a dry day to make it easier. I don't tend to overtake on wet days for obvious reasons unless it's a vehicle pulling in or tractor)

I will see the slower vehicle in front, assess the road and how it flows and if not safe to overtake I sit at a 2 second gap , more if it's a narrower road. I then look at the tree lines and through gaps in hedges to try and see where the flow of the road is to try and estimate where an overtake maybe possible. Once I see the overtake I check my mirror and blind spot just in case someone else starts overtaking before me (has happened before) and if safe I pull out and go past as fast as I can. Not I don't see a problem with that. It's all perfectly safe and well within mine and the car limits.

I've long since stopped trying to make up time on the road by driving fast. In today's crowded roads it's very difficult to make up 5 mins on an hours' journey. If you overtake one car going fairly slowly there's a strong likelyhood there's another one not so far in front. Much better to plan your trip before hand by starting out on time or earlier to beat the traffic congestion . Also fill up with fuel the day before any long trip. If I travel to Scotland from the south of England I find it better to travel in the "wee hours" when there's little traffic about - this does wonders to my fuel consumption. I often wonder what some people do with "all" the time they "save" by driving at the limit.

I've long since stopped trying to make up time on the road by driving fast. In today's crowded roads it's very difficult to make up 5 mins on an hours' journey. If you overtake one car going fairly slowly there's a strong likelyhood there's another one not so far in front. Much better to plan your trip before hand by starting out on time or earlier to beat the traffic congestion . Also fill up with fuel the day before any long trip. If I travel to Scotland from the south of England I find it better to travel in the "wee hours" when there's little traffic about - this does wonders to my fuel consumption. I often wonder what some people do with "all" the time they "save" by driving at the limit.

I know where you're coming from and preparation is key. When I see my family in Aberystwyth I fill up the night before and leave early enough so there's no traffic and we can spend a whole day with them. There is what I call the "pointless overtake" when nothing is gained by doing it. I put this theory to the test commuting into Swansea. On the first day I was constantly switching lanes on the 30-40-30 dual carriageway to try and get an advantage. End result was 25mpg (it was cold) and it took 25mins to get into work. Next day did the complete opposite. Sat in the left lane the whole way and moved over in advance of parked cars that block the lane and used all the fuel saving tips and I got to work only a minute later but mpg was 32mpg. On the way home though is a different story. I will make quicker progress and will overtake a bit more just because it's fun.

It will depend on where I'm going if I overtake more or not. If I go out for a drive to just drive and nothing else I make as much progress as I feel is right.

]

I'm not getting into the "what if" scenario too much. Granted you should be wary of the unexpected but even the most experience drivers can be caught out but something random. If you "what if" all the time on the road you'd never drive. It's about assessing risk through experience, knowledge and common sense. I'm also not saying that it's possible to keep to the limits on our welsh roads even on bright sunny days but I try to keep to the NSL (providing it's the limit for that road) as much as possible and that's the fun part of it.

As I'll explain for my thought processes behind an overtake (on a dry day to make it easier. I don't tend to overtake on wet days for obvious reasons unless it's a vehicle pulling in or tractor)

I will see the slower vehicle in front, assess the road and how it flows and if not safe to overtake I sit at a 2 second gap , more if it's a narrower road. I then look at the tree lines and through gaps in hedges to try and see where the flow of the road is to try and estimate where an overtake maybe possible. Once I see the overtake I check my mirror and blind spot just in case someone else starts overtaking before me (has happened before) and if safe I pull out and go past as fast as I can. Not I don't see a problem with that. It's all perfectly safe and well within mine and the car limits.

I don't see anything wrong with that.

As for your post about lane switching with no benefit and gaining no advantage, I totally agree.

I learned a long time ago, from driving for a living, that trying to get there faster by this method is very stressful and doesn't work.

Far better to just go with the flow and arrive a very short time after, save fuel and best of all, have a much lower stress level.

Something I do, when bored or when I think I need reminding how to drive smoothly, is to drive to or from work, keeping near the limits, but without braking. So reading the road and traffic, as Martyn says, using the geography, and generally letting the car slow naturally. It makes you think and concentrate.

If the three sets of traffic lights are nice to me I can do the 48 miles in an hour and only brake 11 times. That is on poor A roads, through Newtown, and several villages.

It does the fuel consumption wonders!!

I hate it when people do not pay attention to the speed of the road, the road into Kirkstal is a good one, speed cameras along the whole stretch, at the begining and end it is 30 mph, and the rest is 40 mph. What happens usualy is traffic travels at 30 mph for 7 miles each way because the lead car is travelling at 28 mph all the way( in the 40 zone) and braking at each camera to 25 mph just to make sure. The annoying thing is the cameras are so frequent and the "train " behind you end up doing an average 27 mph for the whole journey. I can cycle from Baildon to Headingley , through Kirkstall ( both areas of Leeds in the same time!

Sometimes it is not lack of attention but just general lack of driving knowledge. I am constantly frustrated by people doing 60 on dual carriageway.

What winds me up more though is on a local stretch where it drops to a 50 you get many of the same idiots just continuing along at 60!!

I completely agree that it is driver 2 following too close and trying to intimidate the driver in front causing the most danger.

I have encountered situations like this before where I am the 3rd or 4th car back from the slow car. The cars in front are following way to close to be able to assess the road ahead and look for a suitable overtaking opportunity. Then because I have held well back and got time to see a gap, get in the right gear and go I wizz past all the tailgating idiots who are too afraid to actually overtake and would rather just sit and get annoyed at the slow driver!

lol

The driver going fast on his own poses much less of a risk as if he has a miss-hap he is far less likely to involve other motorists and actually just damage himself/his own car.

The End

Phil