Would a Revo map affect warranty?

[Robbo2006]

Hi there. I had a Revo map done on my Cupra before and it didn't affect my warranty as it was something my dealer put on for me. If I got one on a vRS would it affect warranty? Is there a dealer that would put this on?

Cheers!

[Tech1e]

The warranty would have been effected on the Cupra as it would on the vRS. Neither SEAT nor Skoda offer software modifications such as this so they are not tested and approved.

If I dealer remaps a car they take on the responsibility for the repairs. This is great as long as they are in business. If something goes wrong and the remap is at fault they have three options, pay for the repair themselves, pass the bill onto the software provider or put the claim through to Skoda and hope they don't get caught.

[AwesomeMike]

ANY remap will cause warranty problems...... If they can find it

One thing to keep in mind is how available can you switch the remap from stock to mapped!

Which 'vRS' do you own?

Awesome Mike

[shark_90]

And "switching" a remap via any other method than a flash loading device will NOT remove the map and it will still be resident in the ECU. This means "switching a map off" via a cruise control stalk still leaves the code inside the ECU and therefore it can still be found.

You need a flash loading device such as our STS, or another flash loading device depending on the tuner that you choose.

[Evan@APR]

And "switching" a remap via any other method than a flash loading device will NOT remove the map and it will still be resident in the ECU. This means "switching a map off" via a cruise control stalk still leaves the code inside the ECU and therefore it can still be found.

You need a flash loading device such as our STS, or another flash loading device depending on the tuner that you choose.

Well, it's not quite that simple.

The way our program switching works is that we compress and encrypt the different calibrations in unused memory sectors of the ECU. When the user uses the cruise control to activate a different program, the complete 2mb binary is reflashed internally and the ECU is now a completely new ECU with the new program that was selected via the cruise control. The old program is compressed and encrypted and stored back in the unused memory location.

This is 100% undetectable at the dealership level. The ONLY way to discover the compressed and encrypted data in the unused memory locations is to read out the entire ecu with very sophisticated ECU development tools and compare it line by line to the OEM binary. Only Bosch R&D centers have this equipment. Skoda/VW itself doesn't have these tools available. For the dealership to figure this out, they would have to send the ECU to VW, VW would have to send the ECU to Bosch and then it might be discovered. No dealership or OEM will ever go through these lengths over a single warranty claim, regardless of how expensive as it this process would cost the OEM much, much more time and money than providing you with a complete brand new car under warranty.

To that point, an external flash loader is no better than fully integrated coding.

Edited 26 September, 2012 by Evan@APR

[shark_90]

Well, it's not quite that simple.

The way our program switching works is that we compress and encrypt the different calibrations in unused memory sectors of the ECU. When the user uses the cruise control to activate a different program, the complete 2mb binary is reflashed internally and the ECU is now a completely new ECU with the new program that was selected via the cruise control. The old program is compressed and encrypted and stored back in the unused memory location.

This is 100% undetectable at the dealership level. The ONLY way to discover the compressed and encrypted data in the unused memory locations is to read out the entire ecu with very sophisticated ECU development tools and compare it line by line to the OEM binary. Only Bosch R&D centers have this equipment. Skoda/VW itself doesn't have these tools available. For the dealership to figure this out, they would have to send the ECU to VW, VW would have to send the ECU to Bosch and then it might be discovered. No dealership or OEM will ever go through these lengths over a single warranty claim, regardless of how expensive as it this process would cost the OEM much, much more time and money than providing you with a complete brand new car under warranty.

To that point, an external flash loader is no better than fully integrated coding.

Does the checksum change?

[Evan@APR]

Does the checksum change?

OK I’ll bite. I understand this is part of your marketing and how Shark claims to set itself apart from others, so let’s dig a bit deeper.

You’re referring to the TD01 code that has arisen within the past year, mostly at dealerships in the North American market. This code can purportedly catch and flag any modified ECU and respectively its warranty via an automatic checksum scan.

For those who have just tuned in to our program, a checksum is a mathematical algorithm based on the order of the bits in the ECU. If the order of the bits changes, then the algorithm changes and the checksum changes. Every performance remap changes the order of the bits in the binary.

APR is happy to report that our software--in stock or programmed mode--does not flag a TD01 code. This has been verified on multiple platforms at multiple dealerships in the UK and throughout Europe. Interestingly enough, ANY modification to the ECU without a complete flash back to 100% stock would change the checksum. Contrary to Mr. Shark’s claims, even tuners who use an external flash loader e.g. Shark’s STS, Revo’s SPS, etc., can potentially be flagged by this process making his point moot.

I must reiterate this is only possible if the car is not 100% completely stock and it seems that Shark is implying their STS will allow a customer to do so at home. This too can be achieved with APR software, but one would have to travel to their local APR distributor to be reflashed. But as stated above, this is completely unnecessary for our customers as we have already tested our upgrades against the OEM systems with no warranty issues whatsoever.

There’s another point I would like to address since we’re on the subject of dealership identifcation and warranties; every time an ECU is reflashed, be it at a dealership, by a tuner, or even through the port with your external flashing device, your ECU records this activiy and stores it in the ECU's flash counter. Every time an APR car is flashed, our system reads the flash counter on your ECU and copies that exact number onto the ECU even after the flash is complete, eliminating this way of flagging an ECU for warranty. It is known that the Revo SPS unit will automatically take the counter and reset it to zero after each flash, which creates inconsistincies if the car has ever been to the dealership for a factory update. Allow me break it down for the community: When you get a factory update, the flash counter then marks in their system and on the ECU that it should have a reflash of 1. If you then use your external loader to remap your car and take it back to stock you will show a flash count of 0 and that will cause irregularities in the dealership’s system. We know this to be true for Revo (which should provide more insight to the OP's original question), but as Shark uses a different device/method this would be a great time for them to address how exactly they handle the flash counter.

Either way it seems there are a few tuning solutions available for the OP to choose between that can be assured to avoid warranty issues at the dealership level

Edited 27 September, 2012 by Evan@APR

[Hedge]

Evan - you come across very aggressively for your 1st posts on here.

As far as I know the Revo SPS doesn't flash the ECU only change the parameters of the map. Other vendors flashing solutions don't just set the counter to zero either.

[Yeti_Man]

Evan - you come across very aggressively for your 1st posts on here.

Got to admit, I didnt read it like that Hedge, I found it quite informative tbh and I really like the fact some tuners are honest/open as to exactly how they go about doing things. That was just my take on it though.

[Hedge]

I was also referring to his posts in other threads.

[AwesomeMike]

Thanks Evan! That was quite a nice interesting read for me too! APR Remapping Fabia vRS 1.4TSI

We have a 25% discount on APR mapping at the moment too so to give you some ideas on prices:

1.4TSI engines - £478.80 - With discount £359.10

2.0TFSI engines - £598.80 - With discount £449.10

2.0TSI engines - £598.80 - With discount £449.10

All inc VAT!

Awesome Mike

[shark_90]

OK I’ll bite. I understand this is part of your marketing and how Shark claims to set itself apart from others, so let’s dig a bit deeper.

You’re referring to the TD01 code that has arisen within the past year, mostly at dealerships in the North American market. This code can purportedly catch and flag any modified ECU and respectively its warranty via an automatic checksum scan.

I wasn't referring to that, it wasn't anything to do with our marketing or about how Shark claims to set itself apart from the others. I simply asked if the checksum changed (and is therefore detectable), which you eventually answered below with:

For those who have just tuned in to our program, a checksum is a mathematical algorithm based on the order of the bits in the ECU. If the order of the bits changes, then the algorithm changes and the checksum changes. Every performance remap changes the order of the bits in the binary.

And therefore the checksum. So it's detectable. That's the point I was making.

Note to anyone asking this question in the future:

Remapping is detectable. If you want to have your car remapped, you must accept that it is detectable, either physically and/or electronically and there is no skirting around the issue by ANY tuner. Attempts to hide it are largely futile.

Whether this causes a warranty issue for you or not is pot luck based on your dealer/importer and their level of competence/ability/knowledge/giving a toss.

[Evan@APR]

Test

Remapping is detectable. If you want to have your car remapped, you must accept that it is detectable, either physically and/or electronically and there is no skirting around the issue by ANY tuner. Attempts to hide it are largely futile.

Whether this causes a warranty issue for you or not is pot luck based on your dealer/importer and their level of competence/ability/knowledge/giving a toss.

Detectable? Possibly. But as I stated in my first post, not at the dealership level

[furn]

very interesting read this thread, some good points thrown up and im also glad to see 2 reputable tuners not slagging each other off, but simply debating the subject!

oh yeah amusing posts by awesome mike, like the little boy jumping up and down in the playground saying pick me pick me, you casn use my football!

no offence meant here by the way!

Edited 17 October, 2012 by furn

[Babs]

As much as I like APR kit, Evan really isn't doing his company any favours here, picking on other tuners. It might work on VWVortex, but this is Britain and we're (generally) slightly more polite, but will call you out on things. And we don't appreciate being patronised (that's "pAT-ron-ised", not "pAY-tron-ized" by the way ). Also, as furn alludes to, AwesomeMike is doing a brilliant impression of the weedy kid who stands behind the bully on the school playground. Frankly, I'd have expected more from an Awesome GTI staff member; it's certainly not the type of thing I've seen from them before.

Back on topic...Any remap is detectable, by anyone who sets out to look for it, whether it's a dealer, independent garage, tuner, or indeed an insurance assessor.

[Ootohere]

Rather importantly, from the Tuners & Vendors is the question never clearly answered but covered by the above post.

instead of things like, "Not detectable at dealer level", or such.

Because they can be detected when checked for.

A simple answer would be to the question,

'Is your remap going to invalidate the Skoda Warranty if detected or declared?.'.

Which leaves the question of,

are you potentially committing or attempting to commit fraud by making a warranty claim related to a Skoda engine by attempting or not revealing the vehicle had a remap?,.

The warranty and a warranty claim is expecting a Manufacturer to put right something that they or their components failed.

It is deception in the UK to try and defraud them or the costs that will be incurred."

So not, can it be detected, is there a need to declare or not!

Always the answer is 'yes',

to the dealer, to the Warranty company, to the Insurance Company that covers you, or covers the Warranty Company.

george

[Guest]

Test

Detectable? Possibly. But as I stated in my first post, not at the dealership level

Much has been written about whether certain maps are detectable or not but what is often overlooked is that it's bloody obvious when you drive the car!

[Yeti_Man]

Much has been written about whether certain maps are detectable or not but what is often overlooked is that it's bloody obvious when you drive the car!

Lol totally agree with this. The master tech at the local dealership took my car out around six months back and he came back and said 'blimey, that feels quicker than my VRS, who's remap is it?!'

So I answered with 'ah is this where I say, what remap?' We both laughed. Then I told him it was a Shark Performance remap. ;-)

[Tech1e]

And most of our models now have software manipulation test plan in guided fault finding if we suspect something.

[Guest]

I would just add that whilst myself and Ben (Shark) have had discussions of the relative pros and cons of his software vs others in the past, he continues to put his points across in a professional manner without resorting to criticising other tuners or indeed their products. It's a shame that other tuners can't achieve this balance.

[Yeti_Man]

I would just add that whilst myself and Ben (Shark) have had discussions of the relative pros and cons of his software vs others in the past, he continues to put his points across in a professional manner without resorting to criticising other tuners or indeed their products. It's a shame that other tuners can't achieve this balance.

He's also the only sponsor on here I've spoken to on the phone that hasn't, should we say, talked badly about the competitors!!

[Evan@APR]

As much as I like APR kit, Evan really isn't doing his company any favours here, picking on other tuners. It might work on VWVortex, but this is Britain and we're (generally) slightly more polite, but will call you out on things. And we don't appreciate being patronised (that's "pAT-ron-ised", not "pAY-tron-ized" by the way ). Also, as furn alludes to, AwesomeMike is doing a brilliant impression of the weedy kid who stands behind the bully on the school playground. Frankly, I'd have expected more from an Awesome GTI staff member; it's certainly not the type of thing I've seen from them before.

Back on topic...Any remap is detectable, by anyone who sets out to look for it, whether it's a dealer, independent garage, tuner, or indeed an insurance assessor.

I'm disappointed to read a few of you pointing fingers my direction for calling people out and slagging off other tuners; I had no reason to post in here until somebody at Shark Performance made some skewed implications about our product (as it is the only one with cruise control switching technology) that I felt needed explained further. Not sure where patronizing comes into play. I've also never mentioned anything negative about any of the forum members or other tuners, but rather stated facts about flash processes and detection techniques, and asked questions about how other tuners approach additional areas of remap detection.

[Ootohere]

Can i ask directly,

'Does a remap by APR on a Skoda invalidate the Skoda 2 year warranty on a new vehicle?'

george

[999pooch]

Can i ask directly,

'Does a remap by APR on a Skoda invalidate the Skoda 2 year warranty on a new vehicle?'

george

I know you are asking Evan this question but I don't think you will get a straight answer as there are too many variables.

However I would imagine the question that could be answered 'directly' is:

If the turbo or other critical engine part failed, and the dealer discovered an APR* map on the ECU, would it be covered under the warranty?

* or any other tuners map

Edited 22 October, 2012 by 999pooch

[Babs]

I'm disappointed to read a few of you pointing fingers my direction for calling people out and slagging off other tuners; I had no reason to post in here until somebody at Shark Performance made some skewed implications about our product (as it is the only one with cruise control switching technology) that I felt needed explained further. Not sure where patronizing comes into play. I've also never mentioned anything negative about any of the forum members or other tuners, but rather stated facts about flash processes and detection techniques, and asked questions about how other tuners approach additional areas of remap detection.

Some choice quotes...

Sharks quote:

And "switching" a remap via any other method than a flash loading device will NOT remove the map and it will still be resident in the ECU. This means "switching a map off" via a cruise control stalk still leaves the code inside the ECU and therefore it can still be found.

You need a flash loading device such as our STS, or another flash loading device depending on the tuner that you choose.

Not skewed, just presented as fact. An APR map is always present in the ECU, whether it's turned on or off. Shark SPS will replace original map, Revo's plug in does the same thing, AFAIK.

This is 100% undetectable at the dealership level.

Either way it seems there are a few tuning solutions available for the OP to choose between that can be assured to avoid warranty issues at the dealership level

Detectable? Possibly. But as I stated in my first post, not at the dealership level

Lies.

Allow me break it down for the community...

For those who have just tuned in to our program, a checksum is a mathematical algorithm based on the order of the bits in the ECU. If the order of the bits changes, then the algorithm changes and the checksum changes. Every performance remap changes the order of the bits in the binary.

Patronising.

Remapping is detectable. If you want to have your car remapped, you must accept that it is detectable, either physically and/or electronically and there is no skirting around the issue by ANY tuner. Attempts to hide it are largely futile.

Whether this causes a warranty issue for you or not is pot luck based on your dealer/importer and their level of competence/ability/knowledge/giving a toss.

This, backed up by our resident Master Tech:

And most of our models now have software manipulation test plan in guided fault finding if we suspect something.

(Master Tech > APR, btw )