Fabia vRS Air delivery system data.

[Big Gray]

There's no way it would exit the turbo at 40 degrees, id also say that 40 degrees before the turbo would actually be high as thats air should be at ambient temperature because it hasn't been compressed yet.

Had another look at that today, seems the 40°C appears as a spike after the supercharger has been run, it drops back to about 2°C over the intake temp when running on just the turbo.

[Jabozuma]

So it looks like supercharger itself is adding circa 40C to the temperature.

I need to analyse that data from Gray ASAP. I did another round of calcs and it looks much better than I first thought . The more data the better!

George, that intake article was good albeit rather obvious to us seasoned pros . I am not doing anything like that anyways. Original intake stays, perhaps good K&N replacement filter but that's it really. The change will take place by not using the IC at all and going directly from turbo to throttle body. My kit will sit there. IC will stay as is without any mods and will be used for something else... I cladding up the Alu bits now to check how much is this going to cost as a prototype.

Thank you guys for your help. When I get it working you will all get costs only units .

[Ootohere]

http://www.torquecars.com/tuning/aftermarket-intercooler.php

A seasoned pro will possibly keep K&N panel filters for working in Quarries or dusty type places of maybe where moisture might have filters that fall to bits in the wet.

No place really where a good flow or performance is required.

Times and places for them, not for the application on a vRS. JMO

I do use them, for 4x4's and Buggies.

george

[Jabozuma]

Well, what performance panel filter would you recommend then George? As a matter of fact I do pass next to a quarry every day going to work and it is bl00dy wet in this country lol.

Let me know what you'd use and I will look over manufacturer's flow characteristics data, see what they claim. I am crunching numbers right know and it looks like I will have to rethink some design decisions as it turns out to be to heavy at the moment... :(. Back to the drawing board...

[Jabozuma]

Sat till 2 am at the PC rethinking the design as my original one was costing over £400 in materials only and was weighing almost 40kg lol.

Now it is hovering around 10kg and costing circa £200 and following some more calcs thanks to Gray's data logs and some thermodynamics calcs on the heat exchanger I may be able to shave quite a lot of size and weight still.

[vRSy]

Well, what performance panel filter would you recommend then George? As a matter of fact I do pass next to a quarry every day going to work and it is bl00dy wet in this country lol.

Let me know what you'd use and I will look over manufacturer's flow characteristics data, see what they claim. I am crunching numbers right know and it looks like I will have to rethink some design decisions as it turns out to be to heavy at the moment... :(. Back to the drawing board...

These cars dont use panel filters, they are cylindrical. I was given one of those upgraded REVO ones and it made the grand total of no difference on mine. Same goes on my previous cars, ive tried panel filters in them and made nothing.

My ITG made 10hp midrange gains before/after. Notably stronger throughout the revrange. on the other hand the forge intake made no gains and actually appeared to strangle the power.

[Jabozuma]

It does show ai do not have the car yet:). So what performance replacement filter would you his recommend.

Also, has anybody compared performance of the stock air intake with performance air filter element replacement compared to ITG Maxogen setup as a example?

[Jabozuma]

An update on the project. Spent some time yesterday reading through heat exchanger design info papers, done lots of thinking and I am confident I can reduce the cost, size and weight of the whole unit substantially. Problem with what I am doing is that there is no test data (on which most heat exchanger designs are based) and the only way of testing performance would be to run fully blown CFD evaluation programme.

It is cheaper to do a prototype ad test it on a bench with known inputs, which in turn would allow me to extrapolate performance for car application. It turns out to be a much harder slog than I imagined .

[Ootohere]

It is nice to get the car & try it.

All the theory in the world matters not one bit IMO, untill you see what something does or does not yourself.

?What is it you want from your car?, where are you taking it and what do you want it to do more than it can already?

george

Pictures of a bog Standard set up.

[Richf]

.

My ITG made 10hp midrange gains before/after. Notably stronger throughout the revrange. on the other hand the forge intake made no gains and actually appeared to strangle the power.

Did you dyno before and after just with the filter and was that on a stock motor or remapped one ??

[vRSy]

dyno before and after but only on the ITG. Its at home though and im in the middle east. Ill see if i can get keith@APR to run on their dyno and post up the graph.

The cylindircal filter element upgrade i tried and barring a little more noise i could feel absolutely no difference at all. I have dyno'd before and after with my previous car and the panel filters and tat showed less than 1hp gain

[Jabozuma]

Sy, having had a look at the stock air intake path again it all looks mighty close to the exhaust manifold, cat and turbo. Do you think ITG and the like give so noticeable gains by removing that proximity from the equation and allowing for cooler air to be drawn in? When I was looking at the logs from Gray the difference between intake and ambient air temps was quite pronounced... What do you guys think?

I personally think this is a design flaw and hinders the engine performance somehow.

[vRSy]

Im not sure what you mean.

The exhaust manifold/turbo/CAT is at the front of the engine, whereas the standard intake is about as far from it as you can get, right by the ECU. My ITG is actually much closer to the manifold than the stock intake.

That said, ive felt the filter canister after a prolonged period on track and its been cool to the touch, so i dont think the heat is an issue there.

Where the intake pipework goes around the rear of the engine then around the front tapering down the whole way, i think could be improved loads as it tapers down alot before entering the turbo.

---edit----

in fact did you mean where the intake enters the car from the slam panel before it gets to the filter?

[Jabozuma]

Yes, last of George's images, right where the air enters the car , the scoop->flat black palstic bit->ribbed plastic bit and silvery catalyst sitting right behind it? Surely cat is rather toasty and I'd at least expect this to have a bit of a heat shield, wrapping on the plastic?

[Ootohere]

When i was checking back about July,

@ an ambient temp of 23.5 degrees going up the road @ 70 mph the stock intake just inside the front intake was 32 degrees.

That was before the Standard Airbox.

You can check various places & websites on the location for 'Air Intakes',

Front, angled, side etc.

Ambient temps are not the whole story on an intake.

The Bonnet has sat in the sun, under the bonnet in the engine compartment it is 29 degrees generally.

The area near/behind the battery is at 29degrees. the Airbox Plastic can be higher,

the interior of the box might be cooler when running with the front intake before the 'Airbox'.

***

So you want the Temperature that is Entering the Standard Airbox & the Temperature exiting it.

Then get temps from other set ups.

*** That is when you can look at 'Modifying' those Airflows and Temperatures.

Otherwise you are working without the relevant information.

IMO,

The standard box/set up is actually quite good, and provides cool, fresh air/oxygen flow which is not a problem.

Thats for Road Driving and some playing.

Doing long drives, or just short blasts during a warm or cold day,

is different from sitting up to fluid temperatures, on a sunny day away to do a 1/4 mile, or a sprint, or a Hillclimb,

or taking it to Track Days...

Horses for courses.

Are you wanting Performance, economy, reliability or all of those and something else.

george

EDIT. If people talk about 'Wind Chill'.

Remember that 'Wind Chill' is something that 'Living Flesh feels', Human or Animals.

'Cooling effects and chilling is different from .'wind chill,'.

EG, A radiator front on a car gets the air coming at and through it, a pulling fan pulls air through.

or a pushing fan in front pushes air through to cool the fins.

You do not push the air from behind a radiator forward to fight against the air coming from the front.

Well you do in some applications, but not for a vRS.

Now sitting stationary say in a 4x4 winching and cooling an Oil Cooler or rear mounted radiator, you do things differently.

NOT MY 4x4's but just as an example that cooling is not a problem space is tho.

& a Supercharged JImny.

[Jabozuma]

Just checked Gray logs again for ambient and intake air temp. I think even after him wrapping something (judging by the title of logs, Please confirm mate) the temps were really surprising!

He was doing well at low revs and doodling. deltaT between ambient and intake 5C

then he was joing a motorway and accelerating hard, max whack and the delta was 25C!!! ambiet was 15 and intake 40. It took quite a while crusing to get the temps back delta 5C! So it looks like it is heating up quite a lot when car is being pushed hence ITG Maxogen giving such a notable gain in hp.

For other data on hard acceleratin between 4.5k and 5.2k rpm he was sucking in 194g/s producing 2.6 bar intake manifild pressure and around 25-30hPa vacuum before turbo! I think this with stage1 and other bits installed.

The final conclusion for my project and the design route I am going to follow is low back pressure drop heat exchanger, with half the size and weght than 2nd iteration of the design and I will compensate for much smaller and lighter exchanger size by uprating the cooling capacity 6.5 fold. This should be able to get me temps at the throttle body of -10C with Grey's data at max load. Ultimately it would be good if ECU could handle cooling power management of the unit and get the temps it wants from charge air. Development kit will have a simple independent linear controls hooked to IAT sensor temp.

Edited 24 September, 2012 by Jabozuma

[Jabozuma]

When i was checking back about July,

@ an ambient temp of 23.5 degrees going up the road @ 70 mph the stock intake just inside the front intake was 32 degrees.

That was before the Standard Airbox.

You can check various places & websites on the location for 'Air Intakes',

Front, angled, side etc.

Ambient temps are not the whole story on an intake.

The Bonnet has sat in the sun, under the bonnet in the engine compartment it is 29 degrees generally.

The area near/behind the battery is at 29degrees. the Airbox Plastic can be higher,

the interior of the box might be cooler when running with the front intake before the 'Airbox'.

***

So you want the Temperature that is Entering the Standard Airbox & the Temperature exiting it.

Then get temps from other set ups.

*** That is when you can look at 'Modifying' those Airflows and Temperatures.

Otherwise you are working without the relevant information.

IMO,

The standard box/set up is actually quite good, and provides cool, fresh air/oxygen flow which is not a problem.

Thats for Road Driving and some playing.

Doing long drives, or just short blasts during a warm or cold day,

is different from sitting up to fluid temperatures, on a sunny day away to do a 1/4 mile, or a sprint, or a Hillclimb,

or taking it to Track Days...

Horses for courses.

Are you wanting Performance, economy, reliability or all of those and something else.

george

EDIT. If people talk about 'Wind Chill'.

Remember that 'Wind Chill' is something that 'Living Flesh feels', Human or Animals.

'Cooling effects and chilling is different from .'wind chill,'.

EG, A radiator front on a car gets the air coming at and through it, a pulling fan pulls air through.

or a pushing fan in front pushes air through to cool the fins.

You do not push the air from behind a radiator forward to fight against the air coming from the front.

Well you do in some applications, but not for a vRS.

Now sitting stationary say in a 4x4 winching and cooling an Oil Cooler or rear mounted radiator, you do things differently.

Ultimately it has no effect on my design at all. It is just the overall system efficiency (intake design) does have an effect on the end result really.

I think the design is flawed ant intake from the scoop to the airbox could be insulated . My kit is going to be independent from it really as in the end this will be treated as an external set of conditions i.e. like difference between winter and summer time.

See, I am trying do develop a oiece of kit, which can be fitted to any car of any size. The bigger the engine the more power I will have for my kit so it is scaleable. Because I will be a proud owner of Fabia vRS shortly (touch wood) I will base the prototype on this particular car.

[Richf]

I heat wrapped the front of the downpipe on my Evo to reduce underbonnet temps and therefore intake temps , also wrapped the intercooler pipes where the passed close to the turbo, never had an issue with intake temps after than only heat soak. On my previous car I used nitrous, which typically drops the intake temps by around 65 degrees , you go from having high charge temps to ice on the plenum chamber

[Big Gray]

Just checked Gray logs again for ambient and intake air temp. I think even after him wrapping something (judging by the title of logs, Please confirm mate) the temps were really surprising!

No wrapping... Yet...

I was planning to wrap the the pipe from the Turbo > Intercooler in this stuff due to it's proximity to the cat, Hopefully that may be able to reduce the heat soak which I'm sure there must be at that distance (I can barely get my fingers between them) and lower the temps a little. It has also crossed my mind to wrap the body of the ITG in it too, I notice from the logs that the temps steadily rise when sat in traffic.

Gray

[Big Gray]

For other data on hard acceleratin between 4.5k and 5.2k rpm he was sucking in 194g/s producing 2.6 bar intake manifild pressure and around 25-30hPa vacuum before turbo! I think this with stage1 and other bits installed.

Not too sure that's right the 2.6bar (I'd be worried if it is). By my reckoning it's boosting @ 1.6?. Did you knock the ambient off the actual sensor value?

Gray

[Jabozuma]

I heat wrapped the front of the downpipe on my Evo to reduce underbonnet temps and therefore intake temps , also wrapped the intercooler pipes where the passed close to the turbo, never had an issue with intake temps after than only heat soak. On my previous car I used nitrous, which typically drops the intake temps by around 65 degrees , you go from having high charge temps to ice on the plenum chamber

65C drop on manifold temps I take it? What was your normal intake manifold temperature before nitrous was injected?

[Jabozuma]

Not too sure that's right the 2.6bar (I'd be worried if it is). By my reckoning it's boosting @ 1.6?. Did you knock the ambient off the actual sensor value?

Gray

The pressure reading is absolute so it takes atmospheric pressure in account as well so in other words it produces 1.6 above atmospheric pressure but absolute reading is 2.6. Interesting thing is that at the high of F1 Turbo Era the engines could only take 3bar pressure .

Your stage 1 map increased superchager working RPM range all the way up to 4.5k RPM from stock 3.5kRPM. After 4.5k your boost pressure drops to just above 2.0bar, which is stock. I am sure if you should not be worried about your supercharger as it is only rated for 17.5k rpm and your one is running at 22.5k rpm (5 times crank ratio acc to literature - I'm like a parrot, repeat what I read ). I may be wrong of course.

[Richf]

65C drop on manifold temps I take it? What was your normal intake manifold temperature before nitrous was injected?

On my Skyline the intake temps were typically 10 degrees c above the temp around the air filter , both these temps would rise if the road speed dropped ie in traffic etc , in the fire up lanes at Santa pod I once saw 55 degrees but this would drop rapidly as soon as the car started moving even without NOS , I couldn't measure the intake temp accurately with nitrous since the senders would throw a bit of a wobbly after being sprayed with liquid at -125 c , 65 degrees is a typical figure

I didn't have a significant issue with high intake temps when driving on either the Skyline running 18psi nor my Evo running over 25 psi

[Jabozuma]

As to wrapping exhaust pipes/manifold/turbo should be wrapped in those thermal insulation tapes (would it not lead to higher manifold temps and risk heat stress cracking?) but things like intake IC pipes would see more benefit being wrapped in emissivity heat radiation reflector type materials. In F1 (and space business) they use pure annealed copper (it has the lowest emissivity of all the common materials) for that . Aluminum, especially mirror polished pipes do quite a good job in themselves in any case.

[Richf]

Yes exhaust parts are more likely to crack when wrapped