Has anybody gone from Xenons back to Halogen?

[gsp]

Don't forget also the different classes of Xenon (just talking factory fit here), so when people say they are not better, what are they comparing with.

Basic Xenon - Whiter light with more UV (good for reflective vehicles lurking!), + washers/autolevel, but cannot see any further just more consistently within the beam pattern

Mid range (which I would say the current Octy II has) - As above + can swivel + electronic continental mode (no need to fiddle behind light) , so does allow you to see more when cornering

Top range (Superb type) - As above + bi-Xenon so main beam uses the Xenon with the shutter up (vastly improves distance on main beam) + automatic beam spreading for wet etc

High End (Audi!) - As above + automatic dipping

Thy Octavia brochure when I bought mine quoted bi-Xenon which is not the case so I was a little disappointed, having had that before.

Are they better? Yes IMHO

Are they essential? No, but certainly help to light things up better.

Are they worth it? Well if it were bi-xenon for £800 on a £20k car, maybe, basic Xenon, maybe not.

[Jockdooshbag]

Agreed, people keep stating the same facts, but you either don't appear to be reading them, or are choosing to ignore them.

As has already been pointed out, xenon's are brighter right up to the edge of the beam pattern, whereas halogens aren't as bright the further towards the limitations of the beam pattern you get.

Think you will find i already said i agree with this. Not sure what your point is exactly. Xenons are brighter but have no more range but yes they are brighter at the limit of dipped lights range. This is all i have bben saying so fail to understand reactions like yours.

[Jockdooshbag]

So it doesn't matter how bright a light is it doesn't travel any further???

Yes. Finally youve got it. Increased lighting range would benefit me not increased brightness within the range i can already see.

[Jockdooshbag]

Don't forget also the different classes of Xenon (just talking factory fit here), so when people say they are not better, what are they comparing with.

Basic Xenon - Whiter light with more UV (good for reflective vehicles lurking!), + washers/autolevel, but cannot see any further just more consistently within the beam pattern

Mid range (which I would say the current Octy II has) - As above + can swivel + electronic continental mode (no need to fiddle behind light) , so does allow you to see more when cornering

Top range (Superb type) - As above + bi-Xenon so main beam uses the Xenon with the shutter up (vastly improves distance on main beam) + automatic beam spreading for wet etc

High End (Audi!) - As above + automatic dipping

Thy Octavia brochure when I bought mine quoted bi-Xenon which is not the case so I was a little disappointed, having had that before.

Are they better? Yes IMHO

Are they essential? No, but certainly help to light things up better.

Are they worth it? Well if it were bi-xenon for £800 on a £20k car, maybe, basic Xenon, maybe not.

Couldnt sum it up better. Basic xenon not really worth the high extra cost. Bi-xenon and directional function when cornering then thats a differnet thing all together. Havent tried such a set up but having brighter full beams and swivelling function does sound like something potentially worth some extra cash. Still not sure if it would be worth £800 but they would be worth something extra.

Edited 21 November, 2012 by Jockdooshbag

[Anddenton]

Yes. Finally youve got it. Increased lighting range would benefit me not increased brightness within the range i can already see.

No I haven't, I still don't understand. How does a brighter light not travel further? I get that the beam is directed at a certain point which is the same for xenon and halogen but at this focal point the light will bounce and reflect off the road and objects and travel a certain amount further which will surely be more for a brighter light or am I not understanding something correctly? Do manufacturers really have something that stops light from travelling beyond a certain point regardless of how bright it is?

[Jockdooshbag]

No I haven't, I still don't understand. How does a brighter light not travel further? I get that the beam is directed at a certain point which is the same for xenon and halogen but at this focal point the light will bounce and reflect off the road and objects and travel a certain amount further which will surely be more for a brighter light or am I not understanding something correctly? Do manufacturers really have something that stops light from travelling beyond a certain point regardless of how bright it is?

Its called the road surface. Very little light will "bounce"back up to be off any use.

You even answered this question yourself.

I cant get my head around why you thibnk this is so difficult to grasp.

Xenons are brighter within the permitted range. this permited range is outwith car manufacturers control. It is the road beyond this range that would benefit from being illuminated. To illuminate this increased range we need to use full "main" beams.

This is not my personal opinion, it is fact. headlight dipped beams have their ultimate range dictaced by MOT criteria. If you think you can see beyond this range with your xenons then you are either lying, stupid or your lights are not adjusted correctly. I am not diputing xenons are brighter, i dont think anyone is. Im not even disputing the fact that i would rather have have them, i would. What i am disputing is that they dont offer any range increase over halogens unless you have bi-xenons i.e xenon main beam bulbs. Therefore standard xenons offer little advantage for me and certainly no where near £800 worth of advantage. I wouldnt pay anything for them, thats how much i rated mine but they are better but only better in certain areas. These areas are not the areas that would improve my driving experience.

I could certainly benefit from xenon main bulbs for the full beams but again i wouldnt pay £800 for them.

This simple fact that xenons dont offer any advantage for me is not up for debate. I am merely expressing my experience with them based on how they actually work. You cant argue that they are better because they are brighter therefore must see further as this is just tosh. Brighter does not mean they illuminate the road any further than halogens.

This can be proved very easily by looking at your xenon lights pattern on the road in front of you. The extreme end of the dipped beam range has a very sharp and definate end to it. This is because xenons are very bright right up to this range. The same part of the range is less obvious with halogens as the light is less bright and therefore doesnt have such a defined contrast to it. The extremity is however exactly the same i.e 50m up the road or whatever VOSA dictates.

If the above doesnt make sense then someone else will need to explain it even more simply for you.

[mr_awol]

Think you will find i already said i agree with this. Not sure what your point is exactly. Xenons are brighter but have no more range but yes they are brighter at the limit of dipped lights range. This is all i have bben saying so fail to understand reactions like yours.

I think silver is saying that because the efficiency of light decreases to the edge of the footprint, the edges are effectively unlit (or poorly lit at best) with the standard setup. By increasing the light output within te existing footprint, you can fully light that area and so have, arguably, extended the 'working range' if not te 'total range' that light is (in some way) sent to.

Overall I'd say the standard halogens are pretty poor. With updated bulbs they can be made acceptable but id say xenons do allow you to see further as well as being able to see better within the existing range.

As I think I said earlier - up to £400/£500 I'd call them a no brainier. At the best part of a grand I can see why some may not be able to afford/justify them.

[Perc]

Xenons also typically have a wider beam, because the higher light output allows engineers to spread it out more and still get enough light on the road ahead.

[Jockdooshbag]

I think silver is saying that because the efficiency of light decreases to the edge of the footprint, the edges are effectively unlit (or poorly lit at best) with the standard setup. By increasing the light output within te existing footprint, you can fully light that area and so have, arguably, extended the 'working range' if not te 'total range' that light is (in some way) sent to.

Overall I'd say the standard halogens are pretty poor. With updated bulbs they can be made acceptable but id say xenons do allow you to see further as well as being able to see better within the existing range.

As I think I said earlier - up to £400/£500 I'd call them a no brainier. At the best part of a grand I can see why some may not be able to afford/justify them.

This is basically what i am saying also. Yes the halogens are poorer then xenons at the extremity of their range but i still found xenons too limited in terms of range. This is not the bulbs fault but the limiting factors of anti dazzle laws.

Even at £400 its too much. Id pay £400 for bi-xenons i think but not normal xenons. I honestly think they are not worth anything extra.

I can see why people like them though as the imediate effect is a much brighter footprint. I have used them for several years and i first thought they were great before i realised they didnt offer much advantage after i still had to keep using my full beams to properly illuminate country roads.

The first time you experience xenons its impressive but you soon learn they are crippled by the same limiting factors as halogens, for the dipped beams anyway.

[RainbowFire]

I'm pretty certain the xenon motor is three wire and the halogen motor two wire...???

I thought it was 3 wire (halogen) and 4 wire (OEM HID).

Either way up, IIRC the extra wire on the OEM HID is related to the "dance" when you switch the lights on, so that the control unit knows where the lights are pointing and also as part of the diagnostics.

[silver1011]

The percentage split of my daily commute that covers quiet, unlit country roads vs. busier, lit roads is around 50:50, 30 miles of each.

So the opportunity to use and benefit from main beam is very real for me, but in reality I rarely need it.

Because I can see further up the road with my xenon's than I could with halogens (same length beam pattern but more light at the furthest point away) the benefit offered from main beam is limited.

There are a few very long and straight stretches of road where it helps but as no lights can yet see round corners xenon dipped beam is far more useful than a xenon main beam would be.

[o_ptic]

...some really interesting comments here!

"I have owned 2 cars with xenons. Didnt rate them at all. Its impossible for them to throw light further down the road. The angle of projection is the same as for halogen lights."

Perhaps a quick study of the inversre square law, and look up the intensity of output of HIds compared to halogens.

I'm a lighting designer and have worked for and with most of the global lighting suppliers as well as for 2 OEM's in lighting.

So some clarification (Im not one to educate) there are clear ECE regulations for all exterior lighting functions; how you achieve it and how you spread the rest of the light that is not needed to meet the regulation is down to spec and supplier.

The comparison from different makes of car could be a reason but all OEM's will use different lighting manufacturer for their different models...mostly its down to technical feasibility and cost as to why a supplier is chosen.

So most of the European lighting manufacturers generally use either an 80mm or 90mm projector lens, the projector reflector behind will also play a huge part in the quality (perceived or not) of the light on the road.

As a general rule the bigger the lamp the more light you can throw around, the outer lens surface and rake will also reduce output as light is refracted through the 2^nd surface.

As a measured bulb the D1S/D2S family against a standard H7 does have around 2.5x more lumens…however the colour temperature is what’s equally important.

The point was raised earlier about the Z beam (dot) and the true European beam, some time ago most of the global suppliers found that they could make a common projector/shield with no or very minor lens changes needed between the ECE and FMVSS US requirements…so a common unit in higher volume is cheaper to produce (and design).

Both meet the legal needs but the additional 15 degree elevation suits our narrower roads but its always a compromise!

Obviously everyone to their own and if you like xenon you like it if not then hey!!

The cost is quite complex…halogens are quite simple and easy to approve, Xenon requires more control from the vehicle in levelling, headlamp wash (which is a complex system and includes a twin or 2 pumps and a bigger reservoir and on most cars a painted wash cover), auto lighting, harness changes…the list goes on. The ballast is a major cost even at OEM purchase prices so the total system cost will be higher.

It may look as though it’s a simple 1 in 1 out system but it’s never going to be easy!

Can the dealer swap from halogen to xenon…no! Harness will unlikely be there as xenon normally has its own earth and additional circuits. The dealer also knows that the vehicle will be outside of its whole vehicle approval state.

I personally have swapped my Hella H7 projectors for a genuine D2S Hella projector and ballast unit…so genuine HIDs inside a halogen housing

…and my view having been stuck in more darkrooms measure light levels is Xenon all the way..but that’s just me!

[Jockdooshbag]

...some really interesting comments here!

I'm a lighting designer and have worked for and with most of the global lighting suppliers as well as for 2 OEM's in lighting.

So some clarification (Im not one to educate) there are clear ECE regulations for all exterior lighting functions; how you achieve it and how you spread the rest of the light that is not needed to meet the regulation is down to spec and supplier.

The comparison from different makes of car could be a reason but all OEM's will use different lighting manufacturer for their different models...mostly its down to technical feasibility and cost as to why a supplier is chosen.

So most of the European lighting manufacturers generally use either an 80mm or 90mm projector lens, the projector reflector behind will also play a huge part in the quality (perceived or not) of the light on the road.

As a general rule the bigger the lamp the more light you can throw around, the outer lens surface and rake will also reduce output as light is refracted through the 2^nd surface.

As a measured bulb the D1S/D2S family against a standard H7 does have around 2.5x more lumens…however the colour temperature is what’s equally important.

The point was raised earlier about the Z beam (dot) and the true European beam, some time ago most of the global suppliers found that they could make a common projector/shield with no or very minor lens changes needed between the ECE and FMVSS US requirements…so a common unit in higher volume is cheaper to produce (and design).

Both meet the legal needs but the additional 15 degree elevation suits our narrower roads but its always a compromise!

Obviously everyone to their own and if you like xenon you like it if not then hey!!

The cost is quite complex…halogens are quite simple and easy to approve, Xenon requires more control from the vehicle in levelling, headlamp wash (which is a complex system and includes a twin or 2 pumps and a bigger reservoir and on most cars a painted wash cover), auto lighting, harness changes…the list goes on. The ballast is a major cost even at OEM purchase prices so the total system cost will be higher.

It may look as though it’s a simple 1 in 1 out system but it’s never going to be easy!

Can the dealer swap from halogen to xenon…no! Harness will unlikely be there as xenon normally has its own earth and additional circuits. The dealer also knows that the vehicle will be outside of its whole vehicle approval state.

I personally have swapped my Hella H7 projectors for a genuine D2S Hella projector and ballast unit…so genuine HIDs inside a halogen housing

…and my view having been stuck in more darkrooms measure light levels is Xenon all the way..but that’s just me!

All this to confirm what we already know. Xenons are brighter than halogens. No reasearch time in the darkrooms wasted there then. I could have told you this before you started and saved you donkeys.

Joking aside. To upgrade the bulbs in normal projector units to the lighting levels of xenons, how easy is this? More importantly how much would it cost to purchase reliable bulbs to upgrade the halogens to the same brightness level as xenons? I would imagine not the £800 the xenons cost in the first place. A big chunk of that money must go towards the auto levelling and cleaning functions which we have to rememver are not there to inprove you driving experience, they are there to enure the xenons do not dazzle on coming cars. This means you have paid a fair chunk of cash for something that offers no benefit to yourself but does benefit other motorists coming towards you.

If you think standard halogens are poor, i dont, then surely a bulb upgrade would be more cost effective option considering the minimal benefits to you that xenons offer. What split of the £800 goes towards the bulb and how much towards the auto levelles and washers? I'll wager the majority goes towards the latter meaning yoyu pay for something with absolutley no benefit to yourself.

Finally one final thing can someone explain how the hell does the auto level system work on xenons? Does this happen when the ignition is initially switched on? How does it know the car is not on a slope and what if the car has a load in the boot initially then empties the boot later on without switching the lights off? Maybe it adjust the lights on the move but how would this work as a car will be constantly going up and down hill. If anyone knows i would be fascinated to understand how it works. Wont make me rate xenons any more but i am genuinley interested.

[gsp]

Finally one final thing can someone explain how the hell does the auto level system work on xenons? Does this happen when the ignition is initially switched on? How does it know the car is not on a slope and what if the car has a load in the boot initially then empties the boot later on without switching the lights off? Maybe it adjust the lights on the move but how would this work as a car will be constantly going up and down hill. If anyone knows i would be fascinated to understand how it works. Wont make me rate xenons any more but i am genuinley interested.

Sensors on the suspension arms can detect whether the car has its bonnet pointing up due to a load in the back or just due to a hill. If it is due to a load then the lights are directed down more. They constantly adjust, although I don't think the Skoda ones are as good as others at this. When coming to a stop behind another car I used to see the lights micro adjusting the levels slightly, but I don't see this on the Octavia. Maybe the Octavia sensors have less resolution in their output.

[Jockdooshbag]

Sensors on the suspension arms can detect whether the car has its bonnet pointing up due to a load in the back or just due to a hill. If it is due to a load then the lights are directed down more. They constantly adjust, although I don't think the Skoda ones are as good as others at this. When coming to a stop behind another car I used to see the lights micro adjusting the levels slightly, but I don't see this on the Octavia. Maybe the Octavia sensors have less resolution in their output.

Fascinating. Would this be affected by wear and tear in the suspension over time i.e once thigs started to get a bit saggy down there?

[gsp]

Fascinating. Would this be affected by wear and tear in the suspension over time i.e once thigs started to get a bit saggy down there?

Well on the BMW they were working fine after 9 years. I suspect it is probably ok if the suspension starts to sag a bit. The car bonnet may be pointing up anyway so you'd want the lights to move down. If both front and back sag the same then the delta should be 0, so again should be no issue.

I think the most fancy thing about the Octavia Xenon is the waggle dance they do to check the up down and cornering motors, makes "prestige" car owners give it a second look when you start up and the headlight comes on. Non cornering Xenons just go up and down at this point.

[Jockdooshbag]

Well on the BMW they were working fine after 9 years. I suspect it is probably ok if the suspension starts to sag a bit. The car bonnet may be pointing up anyway so you'd want the lights to move down. If both front and back sag the same then the delta should be 0, so again should be no issue.

I think the most fancy thing about the Octavia Xenon is the waggle dance they do to check the up down and cornering motors, makes "prestige" car owners give it a second look when you start up and the headlight comes on. Non cornering Xenons just go up and down at this point.

I wish the suspension in my last BMW had sagged a bit as it was too flippin hard. But thats a different topic.

I used to love it in my old S3 when the xenons were switched on. You could only appreciate this if someone else switched them on though as you had to look at them from the outside. They kind of burst into life in a small blue explosion and then gradually brighten up. Looked like the birth of a small star.

Kind of over dramatic but you know what i mean.

[snala]

I agree with this above. The problem for me was that the 50m limit or whatever it was ( same for xenons and halogen ) isnt sufficient. I agree they are brighter within that limited range but that still is of no use to me. I need better range and xenons do not offer this. They do offer better illumination at the same range but this same range was way way to short for country roads.

You are still not getting my point either. You are basing this on all the lights pointing to the same place the whole time and that can only happen on a completely flat straight road. Then they will point to the 50m or whatever dipped distance referred to as you said and as you agreed the xenons will fill that space better. The point I was making is on roads that go up and down i.e like in real life, the xenons do go further as they are not pointing at the ground 50m ahead anymore, they can be projecting way further than that and then the advantages are very apparent. Means on country roads you don't have to resort to main beam always as you can see further and wider and your eyes get less tired on long trips with more light around. 3 hours country driving with no other ambiant lighting, xenons vs halogens your eyes are way less tired with the xenons.

I agree the cost is up there though but it's not just the lights, it's the cornering/height function and washers too we have to pay for which I could do without if just the lights alone made it cheaper.

Edited 25 November, 2012 by snala

[Yeti_Man]

You are still not getting my point either. You are basing this on all the lights pointing to the same place the whole time and that can only happen on a completely flat straight road. Then they will point to the 50m or whatever dipped distance referred to as you said and as you agreed the xenons will fill that space better. The point I was making is on roads that go up and down i.e like in real life, the xenons do go further as they are not pointing at the ground 50m ahead anymore, they can be projecting way further than that and then the advantages are very apparent. Means on country roads you don't have to resort to main beam always as you can see further and wider and your eyes get less tired on long trips with more light around. 3 hours country driving with no other ambiant lighting, xenons vs halogens your eyes are way less tired with the xenons.

I agree the cost is up there though but it's not just the lights, it's the cornering/height function and washers too we have to pay for which I could do without if just the lights alone made it cheaper.

+ 1

I don't get the whole distance thing. In my totally unscientific test... in a halogen equipped yeti compared to my xenon equipped one I can see four less trees along the side of the road down my local country lane when parked up. I did say it wasn't scientific but it s accurate! Lol

[Drumtech]

Currently in the the household we're lucky enough to run his 'n hers Octy VRS's. Mine fitted with xenons, the other halfs without. Last night when driving the other halfs car I was amazed at how shockingly poor the headlights, on both dipped & full-beam were. I was genuinely uncertain they were turned on, especially when switching down from the led drls.

Admittedly, xenons are an expensive option but in my view & first hand experience I wouldn't be without them. Being able to run a side by side comparison simply reinforced this. I spend a LOT of time night driving on dark country roads and consider their performance and enhanced safety invaluable.

[skippy41]

Could someone please answer this question, if its not to much trouble.

If I was to change the complete headlight units from bog standard to Xenon's, would they work, IE plug and play without having to resort to fitting the leveling sensors or anything else, apart from getting them set on a beam setter

[silver1011]

No, the wiring loom on xenon equipped cars is different.

[IMT]

No, the wiring loom on xenon equipped cars is different.

Yep. I've some pretty heavy duty wiring running between the 2 lamps and that's the obvious stuff must be much more under the skin

[booke23]

Currently in the the household we're lucky enough to run his 'n hers Octy VRS's. Mine fitted with xenons, the other halfs without. Last night when driving the other halfs car I was amazed at how shockingly poor the headlights, on both dipped & full-beam were. I was genuinely uncertain they were turned on, especially when switching down from the led drls.

Admittedly, xenons are an expensive option but in my view & first hand experience I wouldn't be without them. Being able to run a side by side comparison simply reinforced this. I spend a LOT of time night driving on dark country roads and consider their performance and enhanced safety invaluable.

Sums it up nicely.

[Jockdooshbag]

Sums it up nicely.

Not for me unfortunately.

No where near invaluable as ive proved this through 22 years of driving with only about 2 years of this behind xenons. No crashes attributed to headlights to date. I still cant get my head round people saying they dont see any advantage over their xenon lights when they switch full beams on. This is not my findings after owning two different cars with xenons. Xenons are brighter but when you flick the mains on you can see miles further. I think a lot of this can be attributed to fanboyism. Youve paid for them now so your not going to start slagging the off as it kind of makes you decision to pay £800 a silly one. I used to sing their praises when i first had mine and it wasnt untill i had experienced them extensively that i realised they didnt offer any real world advantge for the roads on which i drive. Plus speccing them for the moment when your car is cresting a hill just seems ridiculous.

Some of you must have defective halogen lights as mine seem fine. I have had the shogun sitting next to my octy and there is no discernalble range benefit from the shoguns xenons. Brighter yes but same range. I cant comment on anyone elses cars but in this direct comparison side by side they only lit the same distance up the missus's Dads access road to his house. I couldnt see any additional trees or pot holes or whatever, yes some where slightly more obvious but thats all and i could still see everything with my own halogens. I am comparing two different cars but TBH i doubt it would matter as the anti dazzle restrictions are the same for all cars.

I suppose its a personal choice as to whether £800 is a lot of money for brighter bulbs or not. If your in two minds just buy uprated bulbs for way less and pocket the rest.