Thanks for the PDF file, it is very informative. If only I can gather the courage to get down to doing it.

Sorry to hear that, but all I can say that it does sound like a mis-timed engine, especially that you said injection pump was tested (how?).

2.5TDI V6 has 2 timing belts, and you can have perfect injection pump timing while camshaft timing is completely out. Or the other way, perfect camshaft timing with messed up start of injection. In my Octy 1 experience, even single belt on 1.9TDI that I replaced in under 2 hours, was beyond skills of 2 local workshops, one of them a dealership. That's why I DIY everything on the Superb.

I Just used the vcds that I have again and ran basic setting 004 and what I got is this ( mind you this is engine not fully warm but yet not a cold start since I drove it about 2 hrs ago. The results I have is 0.2 ATDC TO 4.2 btdc which fluctuated to 8.6 btdc.

Can you explain what this means ?

thanks

In basic settings group 004 (not measuring blocks!), the timing is set to "early" for a period of time (10s I think), then "late" for another period of time. It is alternating every 10 seconds and VCDS shows that.

When VCDS says "early" in the window next to timing value, it should show around 15deg BTDC, ie earliest timing possible, which would normally be only used at high revs and max fuelling. When VCDS says "late", it shows default idle injection timing, it should show about 0.8deg ATDC for good cold starts, though you may find up to 3 deg ATDC there. But the "late" value should not fluctuate more than 0.3deg each way on a fully warmed up engine

Engine temperature must be 85degC at least for this test.

If what you measured fits this description, then

• the pump really has a problem. Varying start of injection "0.2 ATDC TO 4.2 btdc" would strongly indicate that, and the small early-late range of only up to 8.6degrees BTDC is another confirmation. New pump is £1150+£350 surcharge at ECP, fitting it is not complicated so I would not expect to pay more than £100-£200 for work.
  

or

• the main belt's tensioner is hanging by a thread and timing is essentially random. You can visually inspect the belt's tensioner alignment marks under the timing belt cover, they should line up. If the marks do not line up tensioner needs adjusting. All that is needed is to take belt cover off (flat screwdriver is only tool needed, to undo cover clips). It is very easy to have this tensioner messed up due to the way it is tightened and locked. It is also possible that the other belt is not timed correctly, have any of the garages you tried been able to insert all locking tools (2 plates, 1 screw and 1 pin) and inspect all timing marks (2 or 3) ?
  

If you read timing values in "measurement blocks" and not "basic settings", or engine temp was below 85deg C, repeat measurement as described above.

What worries me is that so far the information regarding the timing that you relayed on the forum from the workshops makes very little sense. The numbers that you quoted so far would never come from VCDS, I know because I adjusted the timing on my engine (2 times so far, once to cure cold starts, and once after DIY TB job), and re-checked it a couple times more. So likely the workshops you talk to are BSing you. You decide. Good luck finding a reliable workshop, if I had one, I would have known a lot less about engine maintenance and service.

Edited 23 March, 201313 yr by dieselV6

ok I have done it again and this time correctly I think. I have just used basic settings and not measuring blocks. Engine note changed and glow plug light flashing. results are

engine speed 835/min

actual start is 8.4 btdc and then goes to 0.0 and then to 14.4 btdc

Fault code iam getting for the engine management also are 00550

what do you think of that?

p.s: thanks for advising me

also to mention engine is cold shows 50 degrees on the gauge

I think il have to get the car upto 80 deg to get a correct reading as you have mentioned

No need to heat engine any further for now if you get this big (and consistent) "late" number.

The 8.4btdc "late" start of injection value means the timing belt is out by at least 1 tooth, unless someone moved the adjustment right to the (wrong) end, perhaps then it is just about possible to correct it on the injection pump wheel. In any case, it is way out of spec, so whoever told you pump is timed correctly either lied or more likely had no clue.

I would take timing belt cover off, double check tensioner marks if they align while at it (costs nothing), and try to adjust the injection timing to get it into ballpark right area. It is simple, on engine off you need to loosen 3 bolts, move pump wheel, redo the bolts, start the engine, refer to earlier linked threads At least what you should do is to get the "late" timing to 0deg ATDC with engine still starting right, "early" timing should still show 14-15deg. If you cannot get towards 0deg late timing, e.g. because engine fails to start, the engine is mistimed, and belts need to be taken off and all alignment tools and marks agreed, probably best to also take both camshaft covers of so it is a reasonably big job and definitely not for the local extortionist mechanics (going by your reports).

If you manage to get numbers like 0deg ATDC "late" and 14deg+ BTDC "early", for final adjustment I would recommend replacing timing belt cover and heating the engine to the required 85 degrees before measurement, as replacing the engine cover alerady produces ~0.3 deg error due to increase in belt temperature. But no point in doing that until you have a sensible 0deg /15deg set of values reported from vcds.

Finally, together with the 0550 code you now have an almost complete set of symptoms for a bodged 2.5V6 TDI timing belt replacement job. Perhaps it is just pump wheel that needs to move by 1 tooth, but there's no guarantee.

Edited 24 March, 201313 yr by dieselV6

By the sounds off it I seem to have been taken for a rollercoaster ride. If I have to move the pump pulley back a bit or adjust the timing do I need to use the locking pin that goes in the crank? Or is it not necessary? Il take the covers off to have a look now. A bit worried that I shouldn't mess it up than what it is.

Once I loosen those 3 bolts do I need to move the Pump pulley towards the left? That is anti clockwise?

Don't remember which way is which to be honest as last time I actually had to move the bolts was in 2010, but I think it is pulley clockwise to retard the timing.

Make a small adjustment first, see how the timing changes in VCDS. Repeat (or go in opposite direction if timing went further) until 0.6-1deg ATDC late / 14+deg BTDC early. If you see values going in the right direction but engine stops working, it is likely the other belt jumped tooth. If you are past max adjustment range, the pump belt jumped tooth, this one is easier to fix, but let's see what you get first.

No locking pins nor setting engine into particular positon required for this job, just loosen the 3 bolts on the pulley, shift the pulley a little, thighten bolts to ~15Nm before starting engine up and rechecking. Final torque after the problem is fixed is ~22Nm. Do not overtorque. If you adjust too far, the engine won't start, but valves etc wont be broken as they are controlled by the other, longer timing belt. in this way it is actually quite safe adjustment, though fiddly. Visually check both belt tensioners if their alignment marks line up before the job, if one of them is slack then it's likely belt jumped tooth.

One way I can see any timing belt job go wrong is if a numpty undid pump pulley and mistimed the pump itself. Then timing marks would align but of course pump timing would be out. It's actually worrying for me that the pump was taken of the car, especially by a clueless mechanic.

Edited 24 March, 201313 yr by dieselV6

Sorry im asking so many questions, but I need the move the Pump pulley right? not the one on which I will loosen the bolts. and will it move by hand or do I need to use a rachet

do I need to warm engine before doing any of this? or will a stone cold engine be fine?

The net effect is that you move the one on which you loosen the bolts to the right (while the camshaft gear underneath stays put, you see just bolts moving in the elongated holes). Either using a lever, or if you manage you can do it by grabbing and turning the pump wheel damper/weight (the belt will move both cogs anyway).

Coldish (30degC) engine and belt cover off are fine for intial work to get it around 0/15 values, but for final adjustment warmed up engine and timing belt cover on is needed before deciding final adjustments.

Edited 24 March, 201313 yr by dieselV6

Just checked,this with a full warm engine. Basic settings 004 and then tdi timing

It says timing out of spec too advanced 8.4 and,10 seconds later 14.4

Well, go back to posts #31 - #37 and you can try adjusting it.

Im going to give it a shot this afternoon and post results. Thanks again.

Have attached a couple of photos that shows the front of my car (service position) with the cam belt and timing belt fitted and another with all the belts removed. Makes the pulleys a bit easier to see.

It seems that the VP44 has 37 teeth, meaning that if the belt is one tooth out, then this would equate to 360/37 = 8.8 degrees wrong.

Good luck.

The 3 bolts to undo/redo during adjustment are on right hand side pulley in the first picture.

Not sure how you got on yesterday, but based on the info, I'd be willing to bet that the garage that fitted the VP44 fitted it one tooth out when it came back from the repairers. Not sure if a one tooth error can be taken up on the adjustable pulley's slots, but I would doubt it.

If I was you, I think I'd go back to that first garage, take a screen shot of your VCDS timing graph and show it to them and explain why you think that is the case.

What I would now do is persuade them to check the initial position of the VP44 by:

1. Put the front of the car in the service position.

2. Remove the timing belt covers.

3. Using the crankshaft pulley nut, turn the engine clockwise until the timing mark can be seen through the oil filler.

4. Install the threaded crankshaft locking pin (part of the timing tools kit)

5. Remove the 4 bolts from the vibration damper on the pump sprocket and now comes the acid test.

If the VP44 sprocket locking pin (as shown in my photograph) fits into it its hole, then the pump is in the correct position, if it doesn't then it's positioned wrongly.

If wrong then remove the VP44 timing belt tensioner and belt, move the VP44 sproket to the correct position ( the pin fits in the hole) and then refit the belt, with the slots positioned to give movement either way. (Note that you need a special tool to correctly set the VP44 belt tensioner (shown on page 4 of the attached PDF)

Remove locking devices, start the car, warm it up and use VCDS to incremetally fine tune to 0.8 degrees after TDC.

Note that the cam belt does not have to be touched. The only reason for pinning the cranshaft at the timing position is to "pin" the VP44 sprocket in the correct place.

Good luck.

PS If it works out that the VP44 sprocket is in it's correct position, then I think I'd do a "Basil Faulty" on it

V6 Timing Belt.pdf

Done the adjustment but only when I get it to -1.2 does it say within spec. I'm I on the right track here?

The original VW/Skoda spec for the "late" value is 1.2ATDC to I think ?3.2ATDC, but for good cold starts you want 0.6ATDC-1.2ATDC. I use 0.8deg ATDC. Perhaps VCDS uses default VW range to say if it is within spec. I'd still set it to 0.6ATDC-1.2ATDC. If you want clear "within spec", just leave it at

-1.2 (hot engine and belt cover on).

What is the "early" timing value reported, is it 15degBTDC or less? Any improvement in engine operation? Remember to clear error codes.

There is also a peculiarity of VP44 in that due to 2 more cylinders than VP37 and still only 1 turn over which all cylinders must fire, the maximum advance (the "early" value) is bordering on marginal, especially on remapped engines. You see around 14-15deg BTDC and about 13-14 is requested from the pump at full power above 3.5k rpm. For this reason, it is better to set this particular pump right at the top of the timing spec, ie closer to 0 rather than further. This guarantees the "early" timing to be advanced enough, ie at least 14degBTDC. No unwanted side effects as long as fuel is injected past top of the stroke at idle. "Late" timing should not be BTDC as it raises peak cyl pressure on a cold idling engine and puts unneccessary stress on the engine, not to mention making it sound like a tractor.

Edited 25 March, 201313 yr by dieselV6

Bought it within spec and now the engine shakes between 1000 to 2000 revs

Don't know what else is wrong

Then it could still be that the other belt is mistimed, and they moved injection timing in a vain attempt to balance this. Could be valve timing on one head different than on the other. I'd have this engine retimed, front in service mode, and a set of locking tools is needed. As I said before, likely the original timing belt job was bodged.

What is the "early" timing value reported, is it 15degBTDC or less? Any improvement in engine operation? Remember to clear error codes

Edited 25 March, 201313 yr by dieselV6

I tried to take it slightly out of spec and the misfire us now only from 1800 to 2000 rev

The 2nd garage had done this, put it in service position and checked the timing through.

What is the "early" timing value reported, is it 15degBTDC or less? what are the 2 values you are getting now?