Overnight parts from Japan make all the difference

Dare I saw "don't knock it till you've tried it", Jabo? I'm curious to try out the BMW 1-series with the 8-speed unit, having done over 100k with a DSG7 so far.

So Phil, irrespective of comparisons and having exceeded 100k miles what is your honest opinion of the 7sp DSG. Are the worries of slow pick up at junctions justified or is it, as VW seem to suggest, that it's a case of learning how to drive them properly. Are they, as the OP suggests "awesome"?

So Phil, irrespective of comparisons and having exceeded 100k miles what is your honest opinion of the 7sp DSG. Are the worries of slow pick up at junctions justified or is it, as VW seem to suggest, that it's a case of learning how to drive them properly. Are they, as the OP suggests "awesome"?

Both the 6sp DSG and 7sp DSG take some learning, I've done 45k miles in the 6 speed now and 33k miles in two different 7sp DSG cars.

The 6 speed wet clutch is smoother around town, backing onto your drive or into a parking space that sort of thing, the 7 speed can take a bit of skill especially if reversing up hill etc. You do get used to it but it isn't fool proof like most conventional auto's.

The second area to learn and affects both the 6 and 7 speed DSG's is approaching roundabouts or junctions at slow speeds when rolling and then applying the throttle. Most people who have never driven them before press the throttle too harshly which forces down changes so you get no drive for a split second then take off like a loon, Again you get used to this and apply the throttle gently or select a manual gear on approach.

These as well as slow down changes sometimes are the only real drawbacks of DSG that I find that are not as good as a conventional auto.

Cheers

Lee

Cheers Lee, I saw it on a 'tutorial' (youtube I think) that it appears if you come to a stop at a junction or roundabout in drive the gearbox will be in first but pre selects 2nd and reverse. At that point the gearbox does not "know" whether you wish to go forward or are about to select reverse, hence the delay if the throttle is pressed hard. It seems a gentle coaxing of the throttle is whats required for instant motion. It says it's all in fractions of a second anyway. Can't wait to pick up mine and start playing!!

So Phil, irrespective of comparisons and having exceeded 100k miles what is your honest opinion of the 7sp DSG. Are the worries of slow pick up at junctions justified or is it, as VW seem to suggest, that it's a case of learning how to drive them properly. Are they, as the OP suggests "awesome"?

Very good - not perfect, but very good. Previous cars have been 4 speed autos though; I've yet to try a conventional (epicyclic) auto with more gears yet. The gearbox is reactive, so only knows what you're doing at the time, not what you want to do in a few seconds time (i.e. slowing at junctions etc) so thats where I tend to use the paddles and override it - I want to be in 2nd/3rd approaching the island/junction, not in 4th and then try and change down 2 gears as soon as I apply throttle like it can want to..

Way too technical for me but I love the DSG in the Fabia - certainly never had any 'hesitation' issues.

Considering that every vehicle i have driven since 1977 has had an Automatic Gearbox or a Servo Clutch,

i have no idea where anyone has problems with gearboxes.

Even faulty ones work to some degree.

My Transits Durashift cost the most to repair, my Renault 21 Estate took longest to get fixed.

My Volvo 343 had a great CVT & my iQ CVT or Punto Speedgear was the best fun to drive.

Subaru Justy was amazing, & so was a Fiat Strada 1.5 Auto.

I love automatics of all sorts, and getting to know how they perform best is a joy as far as i am concerned.

I never ever thought something could be worse than a Smart's gearbox untill VAG came out with theirs for 3 cylinder engine cars.

george

Me too.

3, 4, 5, 6 and 8 speed Conventional Auto's (Never had a 7 speed. lol). A CVT, a sequential manual (Alfa Selespeed) and DSG's of wet and dry clutch variety.

The 4 Speed auto's were in Sierra's and Granada's and were the only unreliable units I've had, managed to explode one in a 2.8V6 towing a trailer up hill, they really needed additional cooling.

The Alfa 156 Selespeed Veloce was a lot of fun although you had the gap when changing gear. The noise of the 16V twin spark and the handling of the car together with the gearbox always made for a fun drive. The gearbox never missed a beat in the two years I had the car but the rest of the car always had little niggles with suspension and trim, the joys of Alfa ownership.

Cheers

Lee

Mother in law has a XC70 Auto. I drive it now and then and it's a horrible auto box. you have to drive a little faster to get it to chance gear and there's so much lag between changes

The DSG in my octavia is a far superior box

logiclee,

My 2.9 Granada Scorpio, ex Police had the gearbox go on fire when it had done away with all the ATF.

on the A9 middle of the night towing a trailer.

No wiring and no hazards to switch on,

& only cover for 30 mile recovery, so had to pay the extra 30 miles needed to get home.

george

EDIT, PS,

The 4 speed auto ZF with upgraded Spag Clutch by Ashcroft in my Defender along with the 4.6 on LPG

made it a perfect and economical tow barge.

logiclee,

My 2.9 Granada Scorpio, ex Police had the gearbox go on fire when it had done away with all the ATF.

on the A9 middle of the night towing a trailer.

No wiring and no hazards to switch on,

& only cover for 30 mile recovery, so had to pay the extra 30 miles needed to get home.

george

Yep. exactly the same, looked in my mirrors and all I could see was smoke.

Car was in warranty but didn't cover trailer recovery so had to pay to have it recovered. Garage I bought it from gave me the money back as free fuel though.

I had another two after that but had additional gearbox radiator and manual electric fan fitted on them.

Cheers

Lee

A strange auto box I had was in my old Jeep Cherokee, it was actually a 6 speed auto but only used 5 gears.

It had a choice of two 2nd gear ratios and would pick either one depending whether you were going up the box or down the box, or towing/off road. Whoever thought of that I don't know.

Cheers

Lee

On the test drive I had I tried the box on Junctions, hill starts and reverse just applying a gentle throttle to move off. I experienced no probs at all. The biggest surprise was that I was in 4th gear before I knew it had changed a gear at all!! It's the smoothest I've ever experienced and have driven a few Autos in my considerable time!! Of course I appreciate living with something is another ball game. Still, looking at the vast array of opinions on the web I see a lot more for than against. Honest John seems to have a problem with DSG (well VAG in general it seems) He seems to like his Fords! Then there's a lot of hype from the manual guys who wouldn't touch an auto at any price and the few unfortunates who have experienced problems and have given up on DSG.

Mercedes have been making good torque converter autos for years.Not long ago I had an SLK 320,5 speed tiptronic

auto,and I thought the box was excellent for an oldish car.

I agree with George about the Chris Harris video.it seems nowadays no test of any car remotely sporting is complete unless they take it on track.Just how many purchasers of new RS3s or 135i's are going to do this?...about 1% ?

I know what is meant in that I don't doubt in some ways a BMW will have a better driving feel,but all the track stuff puts undue emphasis on this aspect IMO.

CH used to work for Autocar mag together with a guy called Steve Sutcliffe,who is still there.Steve has now matured and quite liked the TT RS he ran,but he was more of racer years ago,so much so that a reader called him "Steve...look how far I can get the back end out on this M3 that I don't own...Sutcliffe."...which I thought was quite funny!!!

But that's not to say that the BMW is not a great buy at £30k,it obviously is.

Probably the most respected Petrol Head jounalist comparing a dsg equipped audi to a ZF8HP BMW.

slightly off topic, I liked the vid, and yes, 4WD audi's understeer more than BMW's, but he made little or NOTHING of the fact the BMW was on michelin pilot supersports, which are virtually a track tyre, and the audi on standard continental road tyres.. even the worst driver of us would notice a HUGE difference in the way he was driving on the track even if BOTH cars were BMW's and one on the michelins and one on conti's... sorry, but it would have made a huge difference to the way the audi drove if it also had track tyres.. he's not a petrol head if he doesn't understand what a difference the two types of tyres on the cars would have on a track....

horkin,

you need to be aware when jumping into Demonstrators or others cars, that the Auto box can behave in different ways

due to the previous driver.

My car takes some time to come back to the way i like it after being driven by others.

Even feels different if i thrashed it for some time and parked up,

and just head off the next day for an easy run.

Also lots of talk about DSG's which are Wet Boxes, maybe on a diesel and something different to drive from a 7 speed dry

on a petrol or more so on a twincharger.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/news/8368343/Roadtesting-under-the-microscope.html

george.

horkin,

you need to be aware when jumping into Demonstrators or others cars, that the Auto box can behave in different ways

due to the previous driver.

My car takes some time to come back to the way i like it after being driven by others.

Even feels different if i thrashed it for some time and parked up,

and just head off the next day for an easy run.

Also lots of talk about DSG's which are Wet Boxes, maybe on a diesel and something different to drive from a 7 speed dry

on a petrol or more so on a twincharger.

http://www.telegraph...microscope.html

george.

Hi George I appreciate that. I suppose the car adjusts to you after a period. I suspect my car has been driven quite sedately, the previous owner being an older guy (like me!) and being on a 10 plate has done just 15K miles. Mind you I might be old but still really enjoy the fun driving and as yet am not doddery

It is indeed logical to expect a dry 7 speed box to behave differently to a 6 sp wet box on a diesel and honestly I can't say that the critiques I have read have related to which combo. Mainly they have just referred to " A DSG gearbox" I am still waiting for mine as I am having my plate transferred to it and the DVLA have me at their mercy. Doesn't help that we have a bank holiday either

I have a wet clutch dsg diesel and a dry clutch dsg TSi.

They are very different and have their own different avantages and disadvantages.

Cheers

Lee

Edited 27 May, 201313 yr by logiclee

Mercedes have been making good torque converter autos for years.Not long ago I had an SLK 320,5 speed tiptronic

auto,and I thought the box was excellent for an oldish car.

They have been getting pretty poor reviews recently, the 7 speed conventional auto and the dual clutch both seem to suffer from slow changes, slow reactions and slow responce to driver commands. Drove a new A250 recently and it's not a patch on the ZF8HP or VAG dsg.

Cheers

Lee

slightly off topic, I liked the vid, and yes, 4WD audi's understeer more than BMW's, but he made little or NOTHING of the fact the BMW was on michelin pilot supersports, which are virtually a track tyre, and the audi on standard continental road tyres.. even the worst driver of us would notice a HUGE difference in the way he was driving on the track even if BOTH cars were BMW's and one on the michelins and one on conti's... sorry, but it would have made a huge difference to the way the audi drove if it also had track tyres.. he's not a petrol head if he doesn't understand what a difference the two types of tyres on the cars would have on a track....

He did actually say the Audi was on standard Conti's, the BMW comes with Supersports as standard. I doubt that fitting super sports would change the Audi's handling characteristics though. It has a big 5 cylinder engine sat transversely in the engine bay together with the DSG gearbox, haldex transfer box, diff and drive shafts, all in the engine bay at the front of the small car. The weight distribution is around 63%/37% I believe and the front wheels have to steer and power,

The M135i has 4 of it's 6 cylinders behind the front wheels, the gearbox is mounted in the bulkhead and the diff and driveshafts are over the rear wheels. Weight distribution is 52%/48% (50/50 for 4 cylinder models) and the fronts just have to steer.

I think it's just the law of physics as to how the balance of the cars feel and you don't have to go for the RS3 V's M135i to feel that difference on the road. Just drive an A3 1.4TSi and 116i back to back down some twisty B roads and flowing A roads and the difference is clear. The Audi is a better package for interior space, rwd eats into your front and rear legroom and requires a longer bonnet but the BMW is a far better drive.

We tested both extensively last year in both petrol and diesel. The new A3 sportback wasn't out then so I haven't driven that but did try the new A Class Merc, not impressed at all. The Merc has tight rear legroom, iffy lower plastics, crashy ride and slow auto box.

Cheers

Lee

Edited 27 May, 201313 yr by logiclee

I must say, what and excellent thread! A pleasure to read, plenty of very good info and testosterone free discussion on the subject - way to go for all involved!

Nissan do a pretty nice twin clutch DSG style box too... even if it is only a 6 speed.

Nissan GTR? have to agree this box is excellent.

Nissan GTR? have to agree this box is excellent.

Yes, could do with a 7th gear with a higher ratio though IMO.

Running 80's and 90's stuff mainly, I tend to end up with the older 4 speed autos (3 speeders tend to use the torque converter slip instead of a 1st gear I find); ZF units I've tried in a BMW, Jag and Range Rover have all been the same basic 4HP22 and are quite pronounced in the gear change, as were the 4HP18 (?) FWD ones in a Citroen ZX and Saab 9000. The Aisin Warner one in my 94 Jeep is very reluctant to change down for inclines until too late unless using the gearbox in "Power" mode, but with the 4.0 engine there's enough torque to pull it along at under 1500rpm unless towing. Al those boxes had lockup on 3rd and 4th IIRC, so you could tell there were 5 changes (3 > 3 lockup > 4 > 4 lockup).

The Smart gearbox is another level; you really feel the gearchanges in the Roadster as there's a good amount of pull in the gears, and then it seems like an age before power is reapplied but at least you can make sensible, if jerky, progress.

Only DSG6 I've tried was a Gold TDI so might not have been a good compairson as you have turbo lag to worry about which might have been masking the gearchanges.

Very keen to try out a more modern 5/6/7/8 speed auto with some intelligence and see how it behaves.

The ASG is, in my opinion, slightly better than the Smart offering - certainly smoother on the changes although they do take a while. Wifey doesn't seem to mind though and its her car. Fine for its intended use as a city car and when on dual carriageways/motorways you're in 5th anyway so it doesn't matter.

Running 80's and 90's stuff mainly, I tend to end up with the older 4 speed autos (3 speeders tend to use the torque converter slip instead of a 1st gear I find); ZF units I've tried in a BMW, Jag and Range Rover have all been the same basic 4HP22 and are quite pronounced in the gear change, as were the 4HP18 (?) FWD ones in a Citroen ZX and Saab 9000. The Aisin Warner one in my 94 Jeep is very reluctant to change down for inclines until too late unless using the gearbox in "Power" mode, but with the 4.0 engine there's enough torque to pull it along at under 1500rpm unless towing. Al those boxes had lockup on 3rd and 4th IIRC, so you could tell there were 5 changes (3 > 3 lockup > 4 > 4 lockup).

The new 8 speeder ZF is a massive step up to be honest, you never feel the torque convertor being locked up and to be honest because it locks up by 1200rpm in 1st and 2nd and totally locked up in other gears you never get any sense of convertor slip at all. The revs always rise with engine speed just like a manual or DSG. Although the gearbox is shifting gear while locked up they are still very smooth, three reasons for this.

1, There's a torsional damper fitted that takes small shocks out of the drivetrain. 2. The change time is down to 200ms. 3, Because of the 8 ratios the difference between each gear is small so no massive change in rpm like on a 3 or 4 speeder.

In the RS3 V M135i video you can hear how fast the ZF changes gear when he's on track.

For 2013 ZF are also fitting a disconnection system that will allow a sail function when in eco mode and also the ability to configure Launch Control.

Change points are altered depending on mode and as the gearbox is tied in with the engines ecu it's now easier to configure the required shift. On some models the change points are tied to the GPS so the car wont change gear mid corner and will pick the correct gear for the road ahead.

Only DSG6 I've tried was a Gold TDI so might not have been a good compairson as you have turbo lag to worry about which might have been masking the gearchanges.

On a DSG the shifts are near enough instant so the engine ECU does not reduce boost and fueling during changes so there is no turbo lag between changes.

The 6 DSG can slur changes because of it's wet clutches, it will pick 2nd gear and slip the clutch when in traffic and will allow significant slip to pull away in 2nd when rolling.

The 7 speed DSG with dry clutches always tries to have the clutch fully disengaged or fully engaged, it always wants to direct drive to prevent wear and heat of the dry clutches. This can make it a bit jerky in traffic and requires a light foot.

The 6 speed DSG drives mor like a conventional auto at very low speeds, infact you see more slip on the 6DSG than you do on the ZF8HP.

Cheers

Lee