My feeble engined 1.6TDI is prob not too different from the engine quoted, AND I understand the transmission is identical. (So Ya boo sucks gonoffski!)

Anyway started driving in about 1977.

Since then, believe it or believe it or not, I have never skidded on so-called "black" ice.

Driven slower, slithered about a bit, dunted kerbs twice, deliberately drifted on hard packed snow etcetc

Despite, never once, that I can recall, deciding not to venture out because of inclement weather.

And visiting the Trossacks, or near enough, over the 1995 Christmas period, in a Citroen BX.

Intelligent anticipition and a modicum of moderation of belief in ones driving "skillz" count for a whole lot.

And an appreciation of the laws of Physics, and how to work within their constraints.

And space space space.

I never rated myself as a fast driver, but will "lock horns" with most anyone of non-Scandanivian background, in respect of driving in challanging or  tricky or slippery conditions.

I do however see and indeed know drivers who simply cannot drive in anything other than perfect conditions.

These other drivers also simply cannot accept that other drivers possess different skill sets.

PS

I cannot ride a motorbike, a fast jet, or do brain surgery, etc etc, we all have our limits.

Some of us however appear to be better able to recognise our limits.

Search "Dunning and Kruger" tis very interesting .

heres one link

http://psych.colorado.edu/~vanboven/teaching/p7536_heurbias/p7536_readings/kruger_dunning.pdf

 

I work with a couple of guys this article might have been written about every day.

I also work under a couple of managers who DEFINATELY do not fit this template.(but there are those who do!)

 

cheers

m

Edited 27 December, 201411 yr by dieseldogg

Oddly i have been driving only automatics from 1977, and i can assure you the TDI & DSG behaves a little different from the 

Twincharger & the DSG, but thats no real issue, you drive them as suits you, and i have had both, and drive a fair bit in the snow.

If you find they are the same then that is lovely.

Good on you that you do well in adverse weather conditions, most do, and drive what they have and with the intention of doing it incident free.

 

I would like to see someone while in the Trossacks coming down Dukes Pass into Aberfoyle when it is icy and open

and just leave the Twinchargers DSG in 'D' and rely on it doing its thing, and doing some braking.

Or that matter the Cairn o Mount, or many other rather extreme descents.

Anyplace really with 10-16% gradients.

Edited 27 December, 201411 yr by goneoffSKi

Black ice can catch anybody out. Regardless of skill sets. If you're in the wrong place at the wrong time you could find yourself on it.

I went round a corner last winter doing about 20mph in a 30 going steady. Then out of nowhere the front started sliding and the back was sketchy too.

I held it, fortunately because i wasnt going very fast, but theres not alot you can do about it.

Its okay saying its all about the skill, but if you do get caught on black ice theres very little any input can do.

You must have just been fortunate to never come across any, or you live where the conditions dont get bad and the roads are well gritted.

We've got 8 inches of snow outside atm which is ice underneath as its currently below 0. There will be plenty sliding around tonight

Tyre choice is key IMO. But no winter or summer tyre will grip on black ice will it. Not without studs anyway

Just watching the news & i see they are saying 15,000 cars stranded in the French Alps just now.

Edited 27 December, 201411 yr by goneoffSKi

Just watching the news & i see they are saying 15,000 stranded in the French Alps just now.

Crikey.

Bet they wish theyd bought snow tyres

It is always good fun at the Scottish Ski centres when people go up and it is rammed on a brilliant day, then the weather changes before they have to head down.

Edited 27 December, 201411 yr by goneoffSKi

as said b4 some countries is mandatory to have winters fitted.

Loads of fun being had for many.

http://bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-30613481

Black ice can catch anybody out. Regardless of skill sets. If you're in the wrong place at the wrong time you could find yourself on it.

I went round a corner last winter doing about 20mph in a 30 going steady. Then out of nowhere the front started sliding and the back was sketchy too.

I held it, fortunately because i wasnt going very fast, but theres not alot you can do about it.

Its okay saying its all about the skill, but if you do get caught on black ice theres very little any input can do.

You must have just been fortunate to never come across any, or you live where the conditions dont get bad and the roads are well gritted.

We've got 8 inches of snow outside atm which is ice underneath as its currently below 0. There will be plenty sliding around tonight

Tyre choice is key IMO. But no winter or summer tyre will grip on black ice will it. Not without studs anyway

Otaylor,

(i) We live in Co Londonderry/Antrim, I drive on plenty of gritted/ungritted roads, BUT I simply use ALL my senses, in combination with known recent and current weather conditions, to deduce the likelyhood of ice, then slow down and test accordingly, if in doubt.

A road covered in ice WILL SIMPLY  look different, if then wet by a light shower, it will look wet, but if one knew it was previously freezing, hmmm?.

And anyway the car will by n large keep an attentive competent driver informed as to the traction available.

Sliding around is absolutly fine, as long as sufficiently removed from other cars/vehicles, or indeed pedestrians.

PS

Believe it or not, about 1980 coming back from Omagh about 04:00, somewhere about Campsie, on the main Derry road that was always gritted, and I was therefore driving at normal empty main road with no cameras speeds, I had cause to wonder at the appearance of the road.

Sommat did not add up?

So I gently braked, nowt happened, tried again, harder, nowt, absolutly nowt, checked the speedo the next time I braked, it instantly dropped to ZERO.

Oops!, quite genuinely during these few moments the car never reacted in the least.

So, being young and still a bit adventerous (or plumb foolish) I tried the steering, absolutly no reaction to steering input, despite some considerable wheel turning in both directions.

All the while I had prudently kept my foot off the throttle, and continued to do so, until my forward speed had abated.

A shower of rain had flushed the salt and then frozen into a perfect skating rink.

So, that is to agree wit your statement re NO TYRES gripping on ice.

cheers

m

You are never going to have issues because of your experience, knowledge and skills, unless you get caught out,

but many never get that until they experience things for them selves.

 

As to looking different, well if it does then that makes things simple, but it is not always the case that it does look different,

well not in the dark as you drive towards or onto it.

 

Just a small point.

but Black ice can form and often does when the air /grass & Ground temperature is still above 0*oC in the general area & you are not aware of

any moisture in the air or on the ground,

then you come across a piece of road where the temperature has dropped there is it 'Black Ice' which you do not see,

it can be as slippy as you can not keep your feet on it, and vehicles become sledges if there is no traction with tyres and surface.

Sometimes like when you aqua plane on water, you can just carry on across if there is no need for steering 

or braking when you are lucky, or that is just how it goes. 

Just like on snow or mud descents etc, you keep the tyres turning and you have some degree of control.

Like when many drive using gears for decelerating and stay off the brakes, even modern brakes and ABS,

esp and the likes.

 

But then you know all that.

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/300199-fabia-monte-carlo-driving-like-bambi-on-ice

 

As to Driving on snow with a DSG,

a bit like driving any time with a DSG, different people drive differently according to preference,

location and circumstances and how they find things out for themselves with trial and error maybe.

Edited 28 December, 201411 yr by goneoffSKi

I remember as a young inexperienced driver, in the day's of cable brakes and clutches    and proper snow. I lived up in the Yorkshire Pennines at the time and was going downhill in around 4" of snow. It was more common in those days to use engine braking by dropping down a gear or two on long gradients.

I dropped the old Rover down a gear and did a 360 deg  Pretty scary.

 

These days if it's snowing I'm in the fortunate position of not having to use the car but more than once in my working days I have had to park the car up and walk home in deep snow.

 

Take care is the best advice guys.

Otaylor,

(i) We live in Co Londonderry/Antrim, I drive on plenty of gritted/ungritted roads, BUT I simply use ALL my senses, in combination with known recent and current weather conditions, to deduce the likelyhood of ice, then slow down and test accordingly, if in doubt.

A road covered in ice WILL SIMPLY look different, if then wet by a light shower, it will look wet, but if one knew it was previously freezing, hmmm?.

And anyway the car will by n large keep an attentive competent driver informed as to the traction available.

Sliding around is absolutly fine, as long as sufficiently removed from other cars/vehicles, or indeed pedestrians.

PS

Believe it or not, about 1980 coming back from Omagh about 04:00, somewhere about Campsie, on the main Derry road that was always gritted, and I was therefore driving at normal empty main road with no cameras speeds, I had cause to wonder at the appearance of the road.

Sommat did not add up?

So I gently braked, nowt happened, tried again, harder, nowt, absolutly nowt, checked the speedo the next time I braked, it instantly dropped to ZERO.

Oops!, quite genuinely during these few moments the car never reacted in the least.

So, being young and still a bit adventerous (or plumb foolish) I tried the steering, absolutly no reaction to steering input, despite some considerable wheel turning in both directions.

All the while I had prudently kept my foot off the throttle, and continued to do so, until my forward speed had abated.

A shower of rain had flushed the salt and then frozen into a perfect skating rink.

So, that is to agree wit your statement re NO TYRES gripping on ice.

cheers

m

By definition, black isnt appears nearly invisible as its the same colour as the road below, hence 'black ice'. It might look abit wet but so does the rest of the road that is just damp with water covering. So you cant tell them apart.

The road can be fine, cold but not freezing, steering telling you theres grip, then you drive onto the black Ice without even knowing at first. Then your steering goes really light and the car begins to slide.

Obviously then theres not much you can do. Braking will make you go in a straight line, so will accelerating, you may get a certain degree of turning but itll probably just understeer. You're left hoping for the best that theres nothing in the way.

I dont believe any degree experience can really help you out in a situation like that, other than just not to use and input other than steering a little.

Quite frankly, if you're faced with proper black ice on a corner. The driver becomes the passenger pretty much.

Well Doh!

Only if carrying EXCESS speed, into a corner, in the circumstances pertaining, seriously, quite seriously.

 

Gentle acceleration (incl braking) and steering input are also vital, so as not to unnecessarily break traction.

 

ps

I had a message into our local town this morning, and into a couple of housing developments, IT WERE BLOODY ICY, car refused to turn right across a side-throw, into a side turning (even with wor Winter Continentals fitted!) so I proceeded on down the hill, and turned in left on the way back up.

btw. The "esp" light had been flickering on and off bytimes as I drove into town too, which merely reinforced what my two finger-tips and thumb were already telling me.( & see gentle reference above )

Then executed a lovely slithery "J" turn on a reasonably sloping dog-bone to exit the development.

i.e. I swung in UPHILL, cos of the clearly poor traction meaning I required to use momentum as opposed to traction, to get up the hill, then reversed back down with the aid of gravity, and nowt but a lawn and shrub behind.

All I had to do was dab the brakes to bring the front end down and round.

Actually had a little difficulty in pulling away forward without slithering furthur down the hill.

Physics is quite a wonderful useful tool bytimes.

cheers

marcus

I don't know what the manuals say these days but in the bad old days of my 6-speed DSG Passat the manual said put the car in S and turn traction control off. That locked the differential and, most importantly, allowed the front wheels to spin a little without completely cutting the power which is what happens to most DSG drivers when they get in the car on a slippery surface. It simply kills the revs and won't go anywhere.

Having winter tyres does make that a bit redundant, but I bet most folks in the UK don't have winter tyres.

Well Doh!

Only if carrying EXCESS speed, into a corner, in the circumstances pertaining, seriously, quite seriously.

Gentle acceleration (incl braking) and steering input are also vital, so as not to unnecessarily break traction.

Well yes. Excess speed. You can blame excess speed for nearly every car accident in one way or another.

Realistically though. You cant see its there until you're on it, and you cant drive everywhere at 5mph just incase.

Yeah easy on everything. Plenty of room etc. We get it quite bad round here. (:

As already stated the dry 7 speed DSG may have its idosyncracies, BUT, at 55 years old and been driving manuals for 40 years previously.

I simply find "D" works as good at gear selection and engine rev control, as I ever could.

I mostly do not drive in hills or mountains, but there are sufficiently steep braes to "larn" on, like Drumrammer, which admittedly is at least a straight incline.

And actually the one particularly relevant thing carried forward from my early days on the farm, is that despite tractors being  on grippy agricultural tyres, a sloping field was to be treated with respect, particularly if firm underfoot with good lush grass cover.

Particularly particularly with a silage trailer behind.

 

Whayhey!!! 

 

A clear illustration of  Scottie's famous "ye canny deny the Laws o Physics Captain" moment or two!

 

PS

Anyway, regardless of not driving at 5mph "just in case", and perhaps due to some good fortune(**but you are aware of what that famous Golfer said when clearing a tricky shot from a bad bunker, and being told it was a lucky shot) my methodology has worked for me for 45 years.

Like it did for my father for about 60 years btw, without incidents or accidents involving other vehicles. 

but

I did grow up in a rural area where most roads were not gritted/assumed to be gritted, and drove cars on the roads from the age of 18, despite youthful testerone, without serious  incident, or incidents involving other vehicles.

I did get "pulled" on more than one occassion, but managed to maintain a clean licence despite these experiences.

i.e. 

the odd scrape and dent and fright, while "larning", which is exactly how one learns.

 

EDIT

I can only agree that regular winter driving in Derbyshire, could indeed be challanging, having travelled through the County in the summer past

 

 

**The more I practice, the luckier I  get!"

Edited 28 December, 201411 yr by dieseldogg

As already stated the dry 7 speed DSG may have its idosyncracies, BUT, at 55 years old and been driving manuals for 40 years previously.

I simply find "D" works as good at gear selection and engine rev control, as I ever could.

I mostly do not drive in hills or mountains, but there are sufficiently steep braes to "larn" on, like Drumrammer, which admittedly is at least a straight incline.

And actually the one particularly relevant thing carried forward from my early days on the farm, is that despite tractors being on grippy agricultural tyres, a sloping field was to be treated with respect, particularly if firm underfoot with good lush grass cover.

Particularly particularly with a silage trailer behind.

Whayhey!!!

A clear illustration of Scottie's famous "ye canny deny the Laws o Physics Captain" moment or two!

PS

Anyway, regardless of not driving at 5mph "just in case", and perhaps due to some good fortune(**but you are aware of what that famous Golfer said when clearing a tricky shot from a bad bunker, and being told it was a lucky shot) my methodology has worked for me for 45 years.

Like it did for my father for about 60 years btw, without incidents or accidents involving other vehicles.

but

I did grow up in a rural area where most roads were not gritted/assumed to be gritted, and drove cars on the roads from the age of 18, despite youthful testerone, without serious incident, or incidents involving other vehicles.

I did get "pulled" on more than one occassion, but managed to maintain a clean licence despite these experiences.

i.e.

the odd scrape and dent and fright, while "larning", which is exactly how one learns.

EDIT

I can only agree that regular winter driving in Derbyshire, could indeed be challanging, having travelled through the County in the summer past

**The more I practice, the luckier I get!"

Just got stuck a few hours ago infact.

No black ice, just compacted frozen snow (8inches fell friday night and its not really been above freezing yet)

Tryna get up a hill on my way home with around 2.5mm tread on summer tyres. Doesnt bode well.

Like you though. I could see that coming.

Luckily the 4 seasons tyres are on order and should be here this week (:

Erm,

As previously mentioned, the reason I now run winter tyres is precisly because I failed to get up said Drumrammer brae in the 2010 Snow, the brand new/3 month old Octavia being fitted with plastic Turenza tyres, which were absolutly useless, compared to all other tyres I had had exp of.

On my final marginally overfast for prudence "run" I near made it, only to slide down backwards, oh the ignomy!

This after a wee old Peugeot Partner van "pootled" up the hill past me with NO FUSS! (While I was waiting way back on the flat for the road to clear to get a good run at the brae)

Despite being aware of winter tyres for years, and their advertised properties, only once getting them actually fitted, was the stupendous difference clear.

Especially on hard packed smooth frozen snow.

Cheers

M

Just got stuck a few hours ago infact.

No black ice, just compacted frozen snow (8inches fell friday night and its not really been above freezing yet)

Tryna get up a hill on my way home with around 2.5mm tread on summer tyres. Doesnt bode well.

Like you though. I could see that coming.

Luckily the 4 seasons tyres are on order and should be here this week (:

If you had a set of these you would have got to the top of the hill with no problems.

 

http://www.snowchains.com/snow-socks/fix-go-sox

Lovely,

but once people get to the top of the hill, or the bottom they often want to continue to more hills and dales,

and if the road is not back to Black Top & Cleared, they are not much cope,

you can keep running on the snow for so long with them,

but were Mainroads are cleared / Treated and sideroads are not, they could be on and off more than an strippers knickers.

Edited 29 December, 201411 yr by goneoffSKi

Lovely,

but once people get to the top of the hill, or the bottom they often want to continue to more hills and dales,

and if the road is not back to Black Top & Cleared, they are not much cope,

you can keep running on the snow for so long with them,

but were Mainroads are cleared / Treated and sideroads are not, they could be on and off more than an strippers knickers.

OK.

 

Better to sit at the side of the road then......

 

Winter tyres are not included on the lease of my car, I've used the socks a few times over the past 4 - 5 years, they work well and are not too much hassle to fit.

Nothing wrong with C-ock Socks really when they work for your needs. as you say, they can get you out of trouble.

 

As long as the not so bright know which are the drive wheels that they need fitting too.

I will not bother posting the annually posted picture of them on the front of a BMW.

I dont think using S is the way to go thanks to the much more agressive throttle mapping.

 

In most of North America and Canada even the areas that see snow on the ground for more than 8 months of the year automatics make up most of the transmissions in use even in buses and trucks. 

 

The gearbox makes little difference , the correct tyres and smooth use of the brakes , throttle and steering are what keep you under control.

 

As for not having a warning about black ice , thats what the 4 degree "bong" is !

Have you never used 'S' to slow down, Decelerate?

There is no Aggressive Throttle Mapping when you are off the throttle.

 

I have been out and done 50 miles this morning in temps below -4*0C in a vRS & hardly touched the brake,

Roads not Salted for 2 Days & temp has never been above freezing for 3 days,

and drove going between 'D' & 'S' just light throttle.. 

 

We had 4*oC Bongs in August & September & i was out a few times when it was -2*oC in September,

and many often run around at that Ambient Temp, that does not give an indication of there being Black Ice,

but it should make you aware there might be.

Edited 29 December, 201411 yr by goneoffSKi

Not in snow no , you dont need the gears to slow you down , normal engine braking is sufficient.