Long-Interval Service Items - "Sprich zu mir"

[rum4mo]

I'm not sure that these filters are stocked items at VAG dealers, seem to remember that mine had to get ordered in. I certainly would not take wife's Polo very far away from home while it has that original filter fitted - which suit us as we have a bigger car for longer distances. Going by my past history of "non service mandated parts", I could end up binning that filter after changing the car, but I'll try to change the filter when the weather improves a lot!

[Breezy_Pete]

The fuel filter on a petrol fuel-injected car is under much more fuel pressure from the pump than a filter on an old carburettor equipped car. Therefore the filter casing has to be a lot stronger. Transparent plastic simply wouldn't be up to the job. I had an old M-reg Escort with fuel injection and the (metal) fuel filter was in the same place as the Fabia - near the rear axle beam. It's not just a VAG thing, it's the same on many petrol cars.

Good point. In fact, in the case of the filter being between the tank and the mechanical pump on the engine (of a carburetted car) there'll be less than atmospheric pressure inside the filter, because the fuel is being sucked out of the tank, rather than pushed. Hence why, when mine was cracked, it leaked air into it, rather than allowing fuel out. That would seem to be another candidate reason for taking the filter out of the engine bay of an injected petrol car, and putting it somewhere where the consequences of rupture (and resulting 3 bar+ power-shower of petrol) are not so definitely catastrophic.

 

Regarding rum4mo's point about stocking of filters, it would indeed be a good plan to inform your main dealer of your requirement for a replacement a couple of days before the service visit, to make sure they can get one in for the job. If I remember rightly there are two types with the pressure regulator, one where it's fully integrated inside one housing, the other where it's detachable. You should only need the filter part, unless yours is the type where the pressure regulator isn't a separate, detachable part. I think you'll be able to see which you have with a quick glance under the car. Take a photo of it if you're not sure and email it to the dealership.  

[TMB]

Good point. In fact, in the case of the filter being between the tank and the mechanical pump on the engine (of a carburetted car) there'll be less than atmospheric pressure inside the filter, because the fuel is being sucked out of the tank, rather than pushed.

 

 

Yes

[rum4mo]

On the subject of filter type, the diagram of a filter is same as mine as fitted to a 1.4 16V BBY engine - and is a two piece assembly, the "slotted ring" at the LHS is where the securing spring pin gets pushed through to lock the regulator to the filter.

 

One thing to consider if you have the same filter assembly, at a high mileage and quite a few years, will it be possible to reuse the regulator (new O-ring seals should come with filter) - what I am meaning is, will road salt etc not have attacked the steel bodied regulator or its pipe stub  -  that was the other reason why I built up a complete assembly, that and speed/ease of swopping. VAG sell both the individual regulator and filter element AND the built up assembly under two different P/Ns - obviously. (wife might want to drive my S4 if I left her Polo "VOR" )

[Breezy_Pete]

Here's an example of the one-piece version, on a 2003 Polo, same engine as above:

 

 

And here's a two-part version on a 2005 1.2 Fabia (with some corrosion evident on the steel-cased bit as mentioned above):

 

[Clunkclick]

You're right. VAG dealers of today don't hold the levels of parts that they used to - its usually an overnight or possibly a two day job. That's JIT and cashflows at work.

 

Had the same problem when one of the link fuses in the battery lid broke (Courtesy of someone breaking the hinges on the battery lid, <cough> not me). Main dealer two day lead time, middle-east spares place 3 miles away, same day.

 

Looks like Europarts (3 miles away)  have got a full stock, about 6 different types for the 1.4 engine, 3 or 4 bar, with or without regulator, 2 different diameters and three manufacturers, Crossfield, Mann & Bosch and there is also two main VW dealers within 3-4 miles - no doubt a Polo one would fit. Obviously VAG are keen on the cost-of-production reducing effects of variety reduction ! Err . . . Not ! No wonder European cars are so expensive.

 

I think if I were doing it  need the Vin number and take a look underneath just to get the right one - unfortunately ERWIN provides no help on making this distinction. But then, ERWIN is so dumbed-down, its probably designed for use by the infinite number of Monkeys that Mr Newhart used to refer to.

 

Ideally let the main dealer do it.

 

As to pressurised fuel, I see one preparatory trick is to remove the fuel pump fuse, start the engine and run it until the remaining fuel in the line and rail is exhausted. So no squirty when you remove the filter and no air locks when you come to start it up after ?

 

If my car had done normal annual mileage of 8,000 miles, at 12 years old it would done 100,000 i.e. near the unofficial service limit that people like Continental specify for spares.

 

As to not having the fuel filter in the engine compartment. Well, the rubber hose line (@ 3 or 4 bar - that's double the pressure of water in my home central heating system)  still has to go there and its a lot less tough than a metal filter. So that's the supposed safety argument negatied. Personally, I think that having the fuel filter underneath, and without ANY undertray protection (!!),  is lunatic and even more risky.(Even if  full undertray protection for the tank and fuel filter can't be managed because of the clearances, you'd have thought (Industrial designers and thought, there's a contradiction in terms) that there would at least be a forward facing road debris deflector in front of the tank,  Or dare I suggest something like slat armour recently used on British armoured vehicles in the far away place. Anyway, It must be alright 'cause its got DOT Type approval).Travelling on "C" class roads in country districts, I already had a suspension component (One of the front swinging arms) clumped by a baseball sized lump of flint which was lying in the road leaving a sizeable dent in  the SA - had it hit the fuel filter, who can tell what would have happened.. In operation, the metal fuel filter must contain at least a quarter of a liter. Fuel fllter next to fuel tank, tank immediately below kids in the back seat. Wunderschoone !

 

N

Edited 23 January, 2015 by Clunkclick

[rum4mo]

Wino, these pictures make me wonder if VAG reconsidered the "two part" option due to the extra labour costs needed to separate the filter from the regulator - I'm guessing that would cost more than having the regulator inside the filter - that and the corrosion issue that might lead to car going VOR until a regulator was procured.

 

I seem to remember that it was said that it was, in the early days, a case of "has it two pipes" or "has it three pipes" - the ones with the remote regulator ran at a different line pressure. After fretting about this, and discovering the car had three pipes I think that I had a good look at my copy of ETOS and that made it all clear - though by this time I had read off the VAG p/n from the filter body.

[Breezy_Pete]

Dunno, what do Mk2 Fabs have? That may give a clue about VAG's thinking on the relative merits of the two designs.

 

I'm a little disappointed that having photographed the two types this morning, lying on my back in the frost, to show Nick what the options look like, all he can do is continue ranting rather randomly, rather than show an ounce of gratitude.  I feel much happier now that he's on my ignore list. :sun:

[rum4mo]

Yes you are not wrong there!

 

I remember looking under my daughter's late 2009 Ibiza SC with the 1.4 16V engine and it had three pipes - but at that time I would not have thought about the filter maybe having an internal regulator.

 

Our weather has gone the other way, driveway that has been frozen and a slight covering of crispy snow since Sunday, has finally thawed!

[Clunkclick]

Sorry mate, didn't appreciate you done that. VMT.  Have a hot Bovril and sherry !

 

At the moment I can't be sure what format the filter on mine is - even inputting my vehicle  reg into the selector produces 9 different filters, some one pipe on the input side and others with one put-in plus a return pipe from the regulator to the tank

 

.As has been said above, it looks at the moment as if there are two possible configurations one with an integral fuel regulator and one with an external regulator.

 

 

So, I  think the only  way I can narrow it down is to get the actual part no of the one fitted to my car + VIN number, then there can be no mistake.

 

 

Sure as, If the dealer won't do it then I'll leave it to the better weather.

 

 

N

[rum4mo]

Have you tried to see what the on-line VAG parts listing offers, I thought, for wife's Polo, it made it quite clear - reading the p/n off the filter would be good - if at this age, it is still possible.

[Clunkclick]

If I put my vehicle reg in  to any of these spares, its literally perm any 8 from 100, witness:-

 

http://www.mister-auto.co.uk/en/fuel-filter/skoda-fabia-saloon-6y3-1-4-16v-100hp_v16060_g9.html

 

and

 

http://www.eurocarparts.com/fuel-filter?awc=3997_1422045633_078e6b3c7d9dbbc43b9767d7e93e809d&utm_source=Skimbit&utm_medium=affiliate&utm_term=ecp+homepage&utm_content=awin+traffic&utm_campaign=Sub+Networks

 

and

 

http://www.carparts4less.co.uk/fuel-filter

 

and

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/like/371215879351?limghlpsr=true&hlpv=2&ops=true&viphx=1&hlpht=true&lpid=108&chn=ps&device=c&adtype=pla&crdt=0&ff3=1&ff11=ICEP3.0.0-L&ff12=67&ff13=80&ff14=108

 

Looks to me as if they changed the design in 2002.

 

So my vehicle is on the cusp,  its a 1.4 (1390) 16v saloon, BBZ engine,  registered in 2003 and according to the VIN it was manufactured in 2002. So I suspect it could go either way as regards the inclusion of a regulator i.ntegral with the filter

 

Only way is to look at the existing fitting and get the part number. As said, if I have to do it (As opposed to the dealer)  then it wiil have towait till the better weather - the car's running OK at the moment and  I'm unlikely to do any thing other than local miles until the summer.

 

 

Postscript

 

Bingo ! This might be the one, according to the applications list of vehicles:-

 

http://www.inlinefilters.co.uk/Filters-Fuel/Inline/Metal/FFR-G10147

 

Also gives other manufacturers part numbers.

 

N

 

N

Edited 23 January, 2015 by Clunkclick

[sepulchrave]

Incredible, they're all the same filter, some with reg. built in, some without, they all filter the same and the built in reg. provides the same delivery pressure as the separate reg; ~2.5 bar.

 

Look at Winos pictures more closely:

 

They both have three hose connections with the same quick release connectors; unregulated supply, excess pressure return and regulated supply.

Guess what, you can use one with a built in reg. EVEN if yours has a separate reg. just throw away the whole old assembly and fit the new one in its place, as long as the filter diameter is the same it will fit perfectly and the hoses will snap straight on there, beware though some aftermarket filters have the pumped supply and the excess pressure return reversed, if the car won't start just swap them over.

I have no idea why, mine was like this, it was a Crossland from ECP with the built in reg.

 

So you really can't get this wrong.

[Clunkclick]

The Mahle catalogue states that  two filters are suitable for my 1390 16V 100Bhp  BBZ engine:-

 

KL156/1 - which it states has a  built-in regulator with pressure relief @ 3 bar

 

KL176/6D - which it states  doesn't have a pressure relief (This entry may be a mistake as it has the same /D suffix as used for  Diesel filter listed elsewhere in the catalogue)

 

The table shows that these also fit the 75 BHP engine and engine codes AUA, AUB. BBY and BKY i.e. all the 1.4 DOHC engines up to 2006.

 

Looks like KL156/1 is a 2 lines in and one out:-

 

http://www.opieoils.co.uk/pv-69888-mahle-fuel-filter-kl1561-seat-skoda-vw-3-bar-single.aspx

 

Haynes manual states that the  regulated fuel pressure on all the 1.4 DOHC engines (And the 1.4 OHV and the 1.2 engine) up to 2006 is 2.5 bar, that might suggest a 3 bar limit on the filter ?

 

It seems that Mahle, stamps the  relief pressure in bar on the end of the filter.

 

But there are some 4 bar filters out there. I presume that they would be unsuitable ?

 

N

Edited 24 January, 2015 by Clunkclick

[Clunkclick]

Incredible, they're all the same filter, some with reg. built in, some without, they all filter the same and the built in reg. provides the same delivery pressure as the separate reg; ~2.5 bar.

 

Look at Winos pictures more closely:

 

They both have three hose connections with the same quick release connectors; unregulated supply, excess pressure return and regulated supply.

Guess what, you can use one with a built in reg. EVEN if yours has a separate reg. just throw away the whole old assembly and fit the new one in its place, as long as the filter diameter is the same it will fit perfectly and the hoses will snap straight on there, beware though some aftermarket filters have the pumped supply and the excess pressure return reversed, if the car won't start just swap them over.

I have no idea why, mine was like this, it was a Crossland from ECP with the built in reg.

 

So you really can't get this wrong.

You can go wrong:-

 

1) You can buy a filter with the wrong pressure relief setting i.e. 3 bar when you need a 4 bar, 4 bar when you really need a 3 bar.

2) You could buy a filter without an integral pressure relief valve i.e. one line in, one line out, when your system needs one because it  hasn't got a separate regulator.

3). As you said you can buy the wrong diameter filter.

4). You can buy a filter for an earlier chassis number (6Y2, which can also mount an earlier version of the 1390cc, 100BHP, 16 V engine) which is only one line in, one line out.

5). You can buy a filter for the wrong build-period - e.g.  Skoda Fabia 1.4s built after 2007 take the Mahle KL156/3, one line in one line out.

6) Many of the cheaper filters (Mann ?, AC Delco, Coopers/Fiamm) are only warranted for 2 years i.e. they are not lifetime and are priced accordingly.

 

I think only Mahle are regarded as equivalent in quality to OE, but even some of those I've seen marked "Made in China".

 

Unfortunately I can't check the Mann list cause somebody's hacked the catalogue PDF on the website.

Similarly Crossland (Which apparently hasn't existed as an independent manufacturer since 2005), which now is only a trading name owned and used by Europarts and, apparently, anything can get stuffed in the box).

My reading of the details on the  Bosch UK car parts site suggests  the Bosch warranty on Fuel filters only extends to 10000km and specifies a limit of 15 grams of dirt in each filter before they recommend replacement.

 

Postscript

 

Indars comments, at the end of this post, seem to agree with my findings:-

 

http://www.briskoda.net/forums/topic/226713-fuel-filter-for-14-16v-which-one/

 

It seems from the OP that even the Skoda main dealer was supplying Chinese made filters bearing the inscription VW China AG.

 

N

Edited 24 January, 2015 by Clunkclick

[Clunkclick]

Oh dear ! Even more unhappiness, this time expressed by Fab 2 owners with the 1.2 TSI, with regard to the VW interpretation of "Lifetime":-

 

http://www.briskoda.net/forums/topic/298350-high-milage-12tsi/

 

Love the Romanians comments !

 

 

Definitely one for JC  and top gear - the fuel filter challenge. First procure the right filter, fit and rate the experience out 10. Within five minutes of start, Clarkson would be trashing the VAG cars with May's toolset

 

 

N

 

 

 

 

[sepulchrave]

You can go wrong:-

 

1) You can buy a filter with the wrong pressure relief setting i.e. 3 bar when you need a 4 bar, 4 bar when you really need a 3 bar.

2) You could buy a filter without an integral pressure relief valve i.e. one line in, one line out, when your system needs one because it  hasn't got a separate regulator.

3). As you said you can buy the wrong diameter filter.

4). You can buy a filter for an earlier chassis number (6Y2, which can also mount an earlier version of the 1390cc, 100BHP, 16 V engine) which is only one line in, one line out.

5). You can buy a filter for the wrong build-period - e.g.  Skoda Fabia 1.4s built after 2007 take the Mahle KL156/3, one line in one line out.

6) Many of the cheaper filters (Mann ?, AC Delco, Coopers/Fiamm) are only warranted for 2 years i.e. they are not lifetime and are priced accordingly.

 

I meant YOU can't go wrong.

 

I didn't go wrong, I correctly worked out that these filters are all the same and bought the cheapest, fitted it and have been trying to get you do the same and stop beating your gums about it.

It took 10 minutes including reversing the connections when the car didn't start.

 

Despite the obvious Aspergers and unreconstructed contrarianism you seem you have enough about you to avoid the staggeringly obvious pitfalls you list, so are you going to bother fitting a new fuel filter or not?

 

Choices, choices, so many choices...

[Clunkclick]

Here's an example of the one-piece version, on a 2003 Polo, same engine as above:

 

 

And here's a two-part version on a 2005 1.2 Fabia (with some corrosion evident on the steel-cased bit as mentioned above):

 

From my researches (Particularly on the Bosch web site), I'd say that these are diesel filters or diesel like filters, two ANGLED lines in on the input side + a water drain line and one line out .

 

Only things is, is that the blue line is usual the return to tank and the arrow which points to the front of the car and the single line out, appears to be pointing to an  angled connector on the front. Very strange.

 

But using Diesel bits or fluids on petrol cars wouldn't be unusual for VAG - but we're not supposed to talk about it.

 

N

 

N

Edited 24 January, 2015 by Clunkclick

[Clunkclick]

I meant YOU can't go wrong.

 

I didn't go wrong, I correctly worked out that these filters are all the same and bought the cheapest, fitted it and have been trying to get you do the same and stop beating your gums about it.

It took 10 minutes including reversing the connections when the car didn't start.

 

Despite the obvious Aspergers and unreconstructed contrarianism you seem you have enough about you to avoid the staggeringly obvious pitfalls you list, so are you going to bother fitting a new fuel filter or not?

 

Choices, choices, so many choices...

Here we go again. Do one matey.  Get found out and the insults start - you and Wino have got a nice little line in co-operative BS going.  Do give the same regime to your customers ?

 

To somebody who hasn't done any serious servicing on a car  since the era of the MK 1 Golf, returning to this field, even on am amateur basis, is a real eye opener. It seems to me as if VAG has chucked the principles of variety reduction to the four winds in favour of blatant commercialism. But that's marketeers for youse.

 

Whatever happened to output adjustable injection filters of old, where a grub screw adjusted the tension of the pressure relief  spring ?

 

N

Edited 24 January, 2015 by Clunkclick

[sepulchrave]

From my researches (Particularly on the Bosch web site), I'd say that these are diesel filters, two ANGLED lines in on the input side + a water drain line and one line out .

 

Only things is, is that the blue line is usual the return to tank and the arrow which points to the front of the car and the single line out, appears to be pointing to an  angled connector on the front. Very strange.

 

But using Diesel bits or fluids on petrol cars wouldn't be unusual for VAG - but we're not supposed to talk about it.

 

N

 

N

 

I think you may have completely lost the plot, please see a doctor and take the pills he prescribes.

 

Diesel filters are physically much larger because they require a larger surface area due to Diesel being more viscous than Petrol.

 

Diesel filters are mounted vertically to allow water to collect at the bottom of the housing where the drain is fitted.

 

The angling of the connectors is meaningless, simple packaging considerations.

 

The arrow is simply there to denote the flow direction, it is superfluous frankly since the assembly cannot be incorrectly fitted without modifying the bracket and the lines.

[sepulchrave]

Here we go again. Do one matey.  Get found out and the insults start - you and Wino have got a nice little line in co-operative BS going.  Do give the same regime to your customers ?

 

I'm teasing you, not insulting you and frankly you deserve it.

 

I don't have customers I have clients, my clients LISTEN to me because they hire me to help them with what they don't know, they wouldn't need to hire me otherwise.

 

Try listening and taking the best expert advice available, I'm not charging you, you can ignore me if you want, if you can figure the whole thing out by yourself then do it QUIETLY, not here on the forum. Watching you struggling with automotive engineering 101 is painful to say the least.

[Breezy_Pete]

Stop quoting this guy folks, it spoils the 'ignore' function!

 

For Pete's sake Nick. LOOK AT THE CAR, NOT THE INTERNET.

If you pop your head down just in front of the right rear wheel, you'll easily spot your fuel filter.  It will look like one of the two photos I posted for you. If it has the detachable regulator, when you book your service tell them you have that type of fuel filter, if it doesn't, tell them you have the all in one type. From there you can quite safely leave it to your Main Dealer to order the part(s) that seems most appropriate for your car. If you can't understand the pictures and what they're showing, take one of your own, as I also suggested, and show it to the dealer. They'll understand.

[Clunkclick]

I'd say just one thing,

 

I have found that getting advice on the latter part of this post has been like drawing teeth (Compare and contrast the 2012 post which I linked earlier).

 

Perhaps, that may be due to the fact that "Professionals" face a conflict of interest when posting on a forum like this and are reluctant to reveal "Trade" information. Anyway, we are where we are.

 

Thanks for your trouble. You're dead right there's no substitute for no 1 eyeball and a digital camera in these circumstances and perhaps a call to Chessington

 

Cheers.

 

N

Edited 24 January, 2015 by Clunkclick

[rum4mo]

When I am faced with apparent choices/options, I always get the parts from my local VAG dealer's parts department - give them all the facts and they might just be able to add in their knowledge to get the right parts first time.

 

VAG do tend to use some filters made in China (one of their markets), and it is indeed a UFI filter that was fitted to wife's Polo at the factory back in September 2002.  The replacement filter element I bought from my local VW dealer, again was a UFI made in China, VAG P/N = 6Q0 201 511 indicated for use with "4 bar 6Q0 201 051A" and "3 bar 6Q0 201 051", the VAG P/N for the complete assembly is 6Q0 201 051B which is just a filter (6Q0 201 511) + 3 bar regulator (6Q0 205 59) + 2-off seals + retaining bar  - or as said a newer number for the complete assembly.

[Clunkclick]

Cheers.

 

Conicidentally, I'd established yesterday from this site:-

 

http://www.comline.uk.com/filters

 

 

 that VAG 6Q0201511 is equivalent to their part EFF129, which Comline claim is suitable for the fuel filtering requirements of  Fabia 1390cc 100HP (6Y3 chassis) built between 12/1999 and 12/2007. My car falls in this category. This web site says that this part has been fitted from 9/2005 onwards and shows it as two lines on the input side of the filter and one out.. Presume that with this configuration it has an integral regulator. There's no mention of the Bar or the warrantied life.

 

The website states that amongst the shed load of  other manufacturer filters which they list as equivalent, the following, which I've come across in my web searches, are acceptable:-

 

CoopersFIA   FT5739

Crosland        6833

Knecht/          KL176/6D

Mahle           

Mann             WK59x

Wix                WF8317

 

Comline also list part EFF234 as compatible with my car, but fitting of this was only valid up to 4/2006.

 

If it warms up later today I'll have a look.

 

N

Edited 25 January, 2015 by Clunkclick