1.2 12v Fabia, won't start

[hutchysrs50]

Well the chains been put on with the timing pins still in place. Took them out, turned the engine over (by hand) and they don't line up, not even close. Very confused...

Back to stage one of stripping her back down. I'm going to have to have a sit down and have a good think how the chain was in place with the pins locked the engine, removed pins, turned over, tried to refit and miles away.... Like half the teeth away :S

[Breezy_Pete]

Cam sprocket slipping round?

 

You did turn the crank two full turns before trying to refit  locks?

[hutchysrs50]

I turned it over about 20 times in different places thinking... Eh!! Huh!! Wtf!!!

Then closed the bonnet.

I checked the keyway on the crank was on properly but that's it, the two camshaft locking tools both went in at the same angle of about 70° off.

I'm praying nothing has happend to the valves when I've been turning it over.

Is it possible to even bend or damage valves by turning the engine over by hand on the bottom pully... Was just using a half in ratchet.

All the same anyway... I'll be stripping it back down and checking when I get a chance. I'm also thinking I've forgot where most of it goes, it's been about 2 month :l

[hutchysrs50]

Right I've been sitting thinking, looking over the manual and even made a drawing!

I'm thinking... Possibly... The camshafts are mixed up? I marked them on removal with a tipex pen I for inlet and an x for exhaust so I don't get them mixed up.

I don't recall checking this when they were put in, they got built up in a box so upside down also, to me that would explain the timing pins being off but don't know why try wouldnt line up again... If you get me

[sepulchrave]

Jeez Hutchy, I thought you were in the trade, what did they teach you at college, how to shake your head while sucking through your teeth?

[Breezy_Pete]

^ very helpful.

 

I'm not sure that camshafts being swapped would explain this. If the marks/locking things were all correct when the chain went on, they should stay in phase, and all line up again every second full turn of the crank irrespective of what they're actually doing to the valves?

[sepulchrave]

The point I'm trying to make is that there isn't ANYTHING that explains this because it cannot actually be happening.

The timing cannot shift from where it was set because the chain prevents it doing so, to alter the timing you'd have to take the chain off, move something then put it back on again, if everything is locked in place then nothing can move.

 

Edit: You do know that the camshafts move at half crank speed which is why you do the two full turns of the crank to get back to where you started.

Edited 13 March, 2015 by sepulchrave

[hutchysrs50]

Don't worry, his comment is totally justified if this is the case, a total amature mistake, that's why I take precautions such as marking the cams before removal to avoid this. They just become useless if I don't even check them before fitting.

I think they are right though, I also put a row of x's down the side of the box beside it as well before building up.

Yeah I'm aware of turning them over a few times, like I say, done it plenty of times! I even put my magnet down cylinder one to check tdc.

My problem is it's such a chore, doing 10, 15 minutes here and there without concentrating won't be helping things.

I should stress again, I've done this job a few times now with no faults, all within 1 to 1 and a half days.

[hutchysrs50]

Next question.

I'm fairly sure it's only one, but does the flywheel lock In a few different places?

Just before tdc, then tdc and then the three pistons all in a line?

Will have a helping hand tomorrow so providing all the valves are fine still, will be back on track hopefully!

[sepulchrave]

Take number one sparkplug out and drop a long screwdriver in the hole, you can then actually see when the piston is at TDC and pop the lock in place knowing that it's right.

[hutchysrs50]

The cams seemed fine, I checked them simply by locking them with the camshaft position sensor in the top of the rocker cover so they are definitely right.

Moving on, I'm left a little bit confused by the bottom pully set up. I was pretty sure the bottom end had no keyway for the chain and that's why the bott bolt has to be so tight. If it comes loose the bottom end stops turning.

Now I know the bottom end does have a keyway so happy with that. Regardless I thought I would replace everything anyway, so bought the new pully bolt, sleeve and o ring...

But it looks like the o-ring sits inside the sleeve, which slides over the crank, then the pully goes on with the bolt and squeezes it tight. Over time will the o-ring not degrade and then put less pressure on the bolt making it loose? Or am I missing something?

[Breezy_Pete]

Looks to me like that o-ring is designed to seal radially against the inside of the spacer and outside of the bolt, rather than axially. So it won't hold the spacer off whatever its being pulled up to as the crank bolt is tightened.  Have you used a new crank bolt? Looks new.

[hutchysrs50]

What do you mean, sorry?

So you think the order I have the parts in the picture is wrong?

Yeah, all parts in the picture are new. O-ring, bolt and sleeve. Cost around £20.00.

[Breezy_Pete]

Doesn't the o-ring get pushed completely inside that spacer?, is what I meant. Sealing on its inside diameter against the bolt shank, and its outside diameter against the inside diameter of the spacer.  Rather than sealing end-on? What does the spacer look like without anything in it?

 

Edit: all the force on the bolt when its preloaded is tension, along its length. And that will be tons of load pinning that spacer in position.

[hutchysrs50]

Yeah that's right, it gets pushed right inside the spacer sealing as you say, but I'm thinking the o-ring will hit the crank, then the spacer then torquing to the right setting sealing against the o-ring and not metal to metal.

My thinking is it could easily work loose being rubber.

[Breezy_Pete]

If the o-ring gets pushed right inside the spacer, it can't also be hanging out of the end getting stuck between the crank nose and the end of the spacer, can it? :think:

[hutchysrs50]

Nah, the bolt is a tight fit for it anyway so it gets stretched enough on that.

I've checked a few diagrams and think the way I was doing it is fine, was just making sure.

I'll put a drop of locktight on the bolt and make sure it's plenty tight. Then forget about it.

*clatter clatter bang*

[hutchysrs50]

Just thought I'd mention, I never checked/changed the guide at the top that sits between the two cam pullys.

Looking over the old kit, I can't see any reason why it jumped teeth either.

[hutchysrs50]

[hutchysrs50]

Well... She runs!

Just had it on idle for about 10 seconds but it's progress.

[Breezy_Pete]

^:sun: 

[sepulchrave]

Only took you six weeks, have a biscuit and a little lie-down.  :p

[hutchysrs50]

Thanks

[hutchysrs50]

It's abit slow

The handbrake is sticking on after being parked up for a while, so that doesn't help.

[sepulchrave]

It will also need to relearn all its settings since you've had the battery disconnected for so long.