It's a perfectly legitimate diversion in this period of flux as we don't know enough to be able to take any power mod options without the new parameters.....it'd be risky to jump in too soon with an existing 'box' after the 'fix'.

Oops the above was a due to a problem with my Remington typewriter ........

That's right Fred, BUT without the 'cheat' it will demonstrate it cannot pass the formal test procedure.....in other words filthy ALL the time.

So now it will have to consume more exhaust gas to lower the combustion temp and thus pass the NOx test WITHOUT THE CHEAT DEVICE.......and remain like that 'on road' also with passable NOx levels.

Result - less power and torque

But - same economy(?) and CO

It was always a dirty powerful and economical engine which only passed the test by cheating the exams........very naughty boy!

Now everyone is going to do some sort of 'detention'........the other boys are going to deal with Mr VW 'out the back' after school.

 

Considering that we don't know what the "fix" is going to be that is speculation!

Those of us of the 2.0L persuasion, seem to be getting a simply power robbing fix(up) but the 1.6ers will be much more interesting with regards to outcome.......I'm certainly in no rush and won't respond till I know ALL my options.

 

More speculation.

Considering that we don't know what the "fix" is going to be that is speculation!

Of course

But it's not too hard to work out that without any hardware changes its just left to reducing NOx and that can only be done by reducing combustion temps .....that's just a basic diesel characteristic.....and the basic diesel fix is......

More exhaust gasses being burnt with the existing amount of fuel........ or less fuel........

Either way less power

Note VW don't mention specific power levels at all.

Basically cheat = cars pumping out more CO2 than they're supposed to.

Recall = re-map / re-work the cars to pump out less CO2.

 

Less CO2 will almost certainly mean less power - though possibly better fuel economy.

 

I'm sorely tempted NOT to take my car back. It's currently a 170. If after the "recall" it's suddenly down to 150 or similar I will NOT be happy.

 

If I was a 2nd hand buyer I'd be looking for a car that HAS NOT had the recall work done. I would pay more for one of those personally. Unless someone can categorically convince me that the rework did not cost the car BHP or Torque.

 

I think the remappers are going to have a field day!

The cheat is not about CO2 though, it is about NOx. The cheating part of the software realised the car was on test and set the engine to run with reduced NOx, at the expense of fuel economy (and CO2). Once out on the road, the car reverts to naughty mode and pumps out more NOx (which drivers and road worthiness tests don't detect) but made more power and better fuel economy (which drivers DO detect). Result = happy drivers = more sales.

Now, to correct this they are going to have to get the engines to reduce the NOx in normal driving. The only way to reduce NOx is to reduce combustion temperatures. This can be achieved in a number of ways, including increased EGR rates, reduced turbocharger pressures and modified fuel injection timing. This will reduce NOx at the expense of increase particulates (PM). The DPF will catch the PM, so all is OK, right? Except the DPF will need more generations, using more fuel. And the reduced combustion temperatures will reduce the thermal efficiency of the engine, leading to increased fuel consumption.

None of this is speculation, this is all fundamental engine mechanics. The speculation is what, precisely, the retune will change and what degree of impact this will have. As stated above, if they could meet the emissions targets with good fuel economy and acceptable power output then they would have. There will be a compromise.

Nobody is going near my ECU before I have some detailed answers to searching questions. If I don't like the answers, it's not happening. Nobody can force me, and perhaps an un-updated car will command a premium in future...?!

The DPF will catch the PM, so all is OK, right? Except the DPF will need more generations, using more fuel.

And presumably more frequent regenerations means the rate of ash loading will increase, bringing forward the time at which DPFs need replacing...?

The cheat is not about CO2 though, it is about NOx. The cheating part of the software realised the car was on test and set the engine to run with reduced NOx, at the expense of fuel economy (and CO2). Once out on the road, the car reverts to naughty mode and pumps out more NOx (which drivers and road worthiness tests don't detect) but made more power and better fuel economy (which drivers DO detect). Result = happy drivers = more sales.

Now, to correct this they are going to have to get the engines to reduce the NOx in normal driving. The only way to reduce NOx is to reduce combustion temperatures. This can be achieved in a number of ways, including increased EGR rates, reduced turbocharger pressures and modified fuel injection timing. This will reduce NOx at the expense of increase particulates (PM). The DPF will catch the PM, so all is OK, right? Except the DPF will need more generations, using more fuel. And the reduced combustion temperatures will reduce the thermal efficiency of the engine, leading to increased fuel consumption.

None of this is speculation, this is all fundamental engine mechanics. The speculation is what, precisely, the retune will change and what degree of impact this will have. As stated above, if they could meet the emissions targets with good fuel economy and acceptable power output then they would have. There will be a compromise.

Nobody is going near my ECU before I have some detailed answers to searching questions. If I don't like the answers, it's not happening. Nobody can force me, and perhaps an un-updated car will command a premium in future...?!

Re the last sentence, I dream of that also.

But it'd have to be to an enthusiast because the gen public are clueless and probably think it's gonna blow up or summit.....)))

Out here, our EPA may lean on the registering authorities and make it a prerequisite.

Then there's VW's legal position in having to advise (whoever) that they have completed the recall when, in fact they may not have.

Of course this is all S P E C U L A T I V E )))))

Plenty of wisdom in your post weasley.

If VW are serious about continuing with light diesels, I think the should spend just a teensy bit of time on making their 'sustainability' over the long term, by reducing the cost involved in replacing ancillaries that fail.

Affordable DPF and EGR replacements instead of just another profit opportunity.

Should they not be forced to supply (at their expense) a before and after dynometer reading this

would demonstrate that they had removed the cheat but retained the power and economy that

influenced the customers decision to buy in the first place. I tow a light caravan and the 2WD

has just sufficient power without resorting to a more expensive and powerful 4x4 version, would

any reduction come under the sale of goods laws? as it is no longer the product as described originally

Edited 20 October, 201510 yr by gumdrop

Should they not be forced to supply (at their expense) a before and after dynometer reading this

would demonstrate that they had removed the cheat but retained the power and economy that

influenced the customers decision to buy in the first place. I tow a light caravan and the 2WD

has just sufficient power without resorting to a more expensive and powerful 4x4 version, would

any reduction come under the sale of goods laws? as it is no longer the product as described originally

I would hope that the motoring press and consumer rights organisations like Which will take it upon themselves to do this on our behalf (I for one wouldn't trust a VAG before and after dyno anyway), along with some before and after fuel consumption tests.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Ryeman, just a thought, has anyone considered a Dyno run to check power output (bhp) before having a VAG ECU re-tune?

Then have another Dyno to check for power loss etc. to compare results ?? 

Just in case VAG mess up the tuning. :no:

I suspect every car magazine in the world will be doing this....

Ryeman, just a thought, has anyone considered a Dyno run to check power output (bhp) before having a VAG ECU re-tune?

Then have another Dyno to check for power loss etc. to compare results ?? 

Just in case VAG mess up the tuning. :no:

It's to be hoped we get that info from those who sup at the same table as VW .

I suspect however that the subject will bore them long before we actually succumb to VW's wiles.

The cheat is not about CO2 though, it is about NOx. The cheating part of the software realised the car was on test and set the engine to run with reduced NOx, at the expense of fuel economy (and CO2). Once out on the road, the car reverts to naughty mode and pumps out more NOx (which drivers and road worthiness tests don't detect) but made more power and better fuel economy (which drivers DO detect). Result = happy drivers = more sales.

Now, to correct this they are going to have to get the engines to reduce the NOx in normal driving. The only way to reduce NOx is to reduce combustion temperatures. This can be achieved in a number of ways, including increased EGR rates, reduced turbocharger pressures and modified fuel injection timing. This will reduce NOx at the expense of increase particulates (PM). The DPF will catch the PM, so all is OK, right? Except the DPF will need more generations, using more fuel. And the reduced combustion temperatures will reduce the thermal efficiency of the engine, leading to increased fuel consumption.

None of this is speculation, this is all fundamental engine mechanics. The speculation is what, precisely, the retune will change and what degree of impact this will have. As stated above, if they could meet the emissions targets with good fuel economy and acceptable power output then they would have. There will be a compromise.

Nobody is going near my ECU before I have some detailed answers to searching questions. If I don't like the answers, it's not happening. Nobody can force me, and perhaps an un-updated car will command a premium in future...?!

That is the situation in the US. Over here we don't have the full picture yet, hence why I said that the cars need to be retested to check that they meet the emissions regulations in force at the time i.e. Euro 5 (in the test environment) once the cheat software has been removed. VW have stated that whilst the illegal software is on ECU's outside of the US it is not operational. But we only have their word   for that. 

 

We already know that VW Group engines and other manufacturers emit far higher on the road than under test conditions but that isn't the issue here as that is well known and accepted by governments/legislators as with MPG figures. But what will be an issue is if cars are retested and they meet the regulations but are found to do so by using the cheat software then woe betide them.

 

Suspicions have already been aroused, as I mentioned earlier, by the fact that the 1.6 engines require more than just a software delete i.e. injectors and possible exhaust modifications.

Edited 20 October, 201510 yr by VAGCF

Nobody is going near my ECU before I have some detailed answers to searching questions. If I don't like the answers, it's not happening. Nobody can force me, and perhaps an un-updated car will command a premium in future...?!

 

Hear!  Hear!

 

Just as an aside - if my 110 HP engine can, with only a software change, be made to produce 140 HP why should any software mod to reduce NOx have to reduce performance?

 

Norry

.....

 

Just as an aside - if my 110 HP engine can, with only a software change, be made to produce 140 HP why should any software mod to reduce NOx have to reduce performance?

 

Norry

Because combustion temperature has to be lowered to reduce NOx levels.

Heat = power

That is the situation in the US. Over here we don't have the full picture yet, hence why I said that the cars need to be retested to check that they meet the emissions regulations in force at the time i.e. Euro 5 (in the test environment) once the cheat software has been removed. VW have stated that whilst the illegal software is on ECU's outside of the US it is not operational. But we only have their word   for that. 

 

We already know that VW Group engines and other manufacturers emit far higher on the road than under test conditions but that isn't the issue here as that is well known and accepted by governments/legislators as with MPG figures. But what will be an issue is if cars are retested and they meet the regulations but are found to do so by using the cheat software then woe betide them.

 

Suspicions have already been aroused, as I mentioned earlier, by the fact that the 1.6 engines require more than just a software delete i.e. injectors and possible exhaust modifications.

News to me, do you have a link to a source for that, please?

Because combustion temperature has to be lowered to reduce NOx levels.

Heat = power

 

 

So you think that the 140HP engine will come down to less than 110HP after the mods?  - I don't think so!

Just as an aside - if my 110 HP engine can, with only a software change, be made to produce 140 HP why should any software mod to reduce NOx have to reduce performance?

 

Norry

I suspect increased power and reduced NOx are mutually exclusive - either one or the other - not both? (at least that is without any mechanical mods)

 

Jim

Edited 22 October, 201510 yr by muddyjim

So you think that the 140HP engine will come down to less than 110HP after the mods?  - I don't think so!

 

If VW can lower the emissions on the 2.0tdi with just the software and (as they've said) not lower economy, then power will have to be sacrificed as it's the only other variable. If they could have achieved lower emissions with the same economy and power purely with the software then they'd have done so without "cheating". I doubt it'll be as severe as going from 140bhp to 110 but I'd expect all the engines will take a percentage hit with the modification. Most likely VW are trying to find the best balance right now and trying to figure out what they'll have to do to compensate customers for effectively hamstringing their engines.

 

In Europe CO² is the target and was probably met with the current engine tech so the cheating was no doubt introduced in response to the US NOx emissions test adding another variable. It seems like VW are going to try to meet the CO² and NOx emissions now since they're changing injectors on the 1.6 engines.

 

 

All speculation as Graham will no doubt say, but it looks the most likely scenario to me, since VW aren't telling us then we can only speculate, blame them!

Edited 22 October, 201510 yr by Jimrod

But the 110HP engine and the 140HP engine are the same except for software so why would they have to reduce the 140 as low as the 110?

Norry

So you think that the 140HP engine will come down to less than 110HP after the mods? - I don't think so!

Where did you get the specific power reduction from?

Forget what YOUR mod gives your 110, this is about the 140hp version's reduction by probably 5-10 hp, as a guess.

For me, torque is the most important.

Edited 22 October, 201510 yr by Ryeman

But the 110HP engine and the 140HP engine are the same except for software so why would they have to reduce the 140 as low as the 110?

Norry

But the 110HP engine and the 140HP engine are the same except for software so why would they have to reduce the 140 as low as the 110?

Norry

Who said that?.

But the 110HP engine and the 140HP engine are the same except for software so why would they have to reduce the 140 as low as the 110?

Norry

 

Not sure who's said they'll reduce the 140 to 110... Anyway, your engine has a map, it burns fuel and outputs power according to the map it has, VW will most likely have to reduce running temps to lower emissions, lowering power based on the map you have. ie. 110 becomes 104 bhp, 140 becomes 133 bhp, 170 becomes 162 bhp based on a 5% power reduction. We don't know anything for sure, that's the problem. VW need to speak up to avoid all this speculation, the longer it goes on the more damage it will do to them, their current owners (resale values will drop) and potential new customers.

Edited 22 October, 201510 yr by Jimrod

My point is that they are the same engines mechanically so if the can get about 140HP out of it legally why would they have to reduce the 110HP engine's output?