Felicia 1.3 MPI - Oil in coolant tank / white gue in Oil cap

[RicardoM]

The core plugs in question, I showed them here. There is a very remote possibility one cracked open a hair if bad coolant froze in the cylinder head at one time.

 

Wino is right about engine oil at high pressure seeping into coolant. I added his observation on my drawing.

 

Christian, the HG can get literally destroyed by old, acidic coolant. The coolant eats from head too then heat, pressure, and fatigue do the rest. Re. to low torque on head bolts from factory, I don't buy it. Such error would show up in 3 days, not in 15 years. It is important to gather specific information about your engine, not listen to folklor and myths on various forums.

[RicardoM]

As suggested Im of to replace the HG - Started investigating in a shop that can unwarp the head when removed - Rickardo wrote that he was doing an guide somewhere in them threads. Is that published?

Not yet. Holidays...

And, When the enginge is this dismantled I should also check for valve leaks I got.

Yes. Not mandatory but highly recommended.

SHould I also replace the gaskets for the intake and exauste while this much is removed?

Yes.

The Mechanic -Matt- "Schrodingers Box" - says replace the bolts when doing this aswell .) SO Im guessing that is also on the list to do

Skoda service manual says they can be reused. I used new bolts only once

[criiser]

The water usually passes past the push rod holes but very rare to see oil in the water so I suspect the core plugs under the rocker shaft have corroded thru.

 

So, opened the lid that covered the rocker shaft and photoed all three core plugs (last in the album now). They all seem fine to me, maybe remove the actual rockers to see them even more clearly... Or maybe not, them bolts seems to be part of the head fastening to the engine. Removing just them might warp the entire thing.....

 

Also surprised over the little mayo residues inside that. Just some around the oil intake and nothing more.. THAT is good right? :-)

Edited 2 January, 2016 by criiser

[felicia16v]

OK yes those are the core plugs I was thinking of. I'm a bit suspect of the 2nd one pictured as it's half clean as if something is washing it, coolant passing thru a pinhole maybe? I would be tempted to give it a really good veranda and poke with something sharp to make sure it's not corroded thru from underneath.

[criiser]

OK yes those are the core plugs I was thinking of. I'm a bit suspect of the 2nd one pictured as it's half clean as if something is washing it, coolant passing thru a pinhole maybe? I would be tempted to give it a really good veranda and poke with something sharp to make sure it's not corroded thru from underneath.

 

That I will do. Open the patient again and poke it with an screwdriver! Um. Not SUPER hard i presume

 

Oh eh, does that explain the oil in the coolant? Or the Coolant in the OIL?

 

Br, C

Edited 2 January, 2016 by criiser

[RicardoM]

Also surprised over the little mayo residues inside that. Just some around the oil intake and nothing more.. THAT is good right? :-)

The first thing that came to my mind was "define GOOD"...

The only 'good' thing about current situation is the HG failure is minor. Regardless of what failed where, the head must come off. Oil in coolant or coolant in oil indicate a head crack or a head gasket failure. When you'll open the patient for surgery, try not to disturb the head gasket too much if you want to 'read' what area failed (both sides).

[felicia16v]

Both. Coolant will be under pressure so would leak thru while the engine is running and oil sat in the core plug would be sucked thru as the engine cooled down.

Again there is not really any were else the oil can get into the coolant. The pressure feed to the head is a long way from the waterways.

You could clean the core plugs and pressurise the cooling system and watch for any coolant coming thru them.

Water in the oil only could be headgasket or liner seals but either very rarely puts oil in the water..

This is experiance from working in a skoda srevice dealer since 1994 and rallying one for 6 years.

Changing 2 heads a day at one point with dissolving headgaskets when vw got the mix wrong lol.

[RicardoM]

Again there is not really any were else the oil can get into the coolant. The pressure feed to the head is a long way from the waterways.

Actually there is, and not far at all, as it has been previously stated.

 

[criiser]

Both. Coolant will be under pressure so would leak thru while the engine is running and oil sat in the core plug would be sucked thru as the engine cooled down.

Again there is not really any were else the oil can get into the coolant. The pressure feed to the head is a long way from the waterways.

You could clean the core plugs and pressurise the cooling system and watch for any coolant coming thru them.

Water in the oil only could be headgasket or liner seals but either very rarely puts oil in the water..

This is experiance from working in a skoda srevice dealer since 1994 and rallying one for 6 years.

Changing 2 heads a day at one point with dissolving headgaskets when vw got the mix wrong lol.

 

OK so are these plugs replaceable? or get a new head??

 

Br, C

[criiser]

The first thing that came to my mind was "define GOOD"...

The only 'good' thing about current situation is the HG failure is minor. Regardless of what failed where, the head must come off. Oil in coolant or coolant in oil indicate a head crack or a head gasket failure. When you'll open the patient for surgery, try not to disturb the head gasket too much if you want to 'read' what area failed (both sides).

 

Good as in, Good its not errupted that much into the engine making this an -**** its broken don't /cant  drive it not more until its fixxed...

 

And good that its spotted now, MIGHT not be that much damage done to the rest of the engine.

 

WHAT should i put in the coolant to clean it ? Degreaser?

 

Br, C

[RicardoM]

Good as in, Good its not errupted that much into the engine making this an -**** its broken don't /cant  drive it not more until its fixxed...

And good that its spotted now, MIGHT not be that much damage done to the rest of the engine.

WHAT should i put in the coolant to clean it ? Degreaser?

 

I think you are not having the correct attitude here. I am trying to help and apparently you are not listening. If you have read the other too topics, I had all the patience to share my knowledge from start to finish. Part of success came from the owners paying attention to me, trusting my judgement, and doing what I explained or showed using photos and videos. It is not the right thing to become neurotic and freak out over a head gasket job. If you feel you've got too much advice from too many people, I suggest you to decide who are you gonna trust and who want you to walk you through it. I was very clear, regardless where the oil in coolant and vice versa are coming from, the cylinder head has to come off. Neither oil in coolant nor coolant in oil do good to an engine. It is common sense the problem will not go away, but worsen and damage the engine. You don't have to degrease the coolant. That is like putting makeup on a patient in ICU...

 

Stop using the car. The potential damage is minor for now, so yeah, that's good news. You have to have good mechanic skills, a good understanding of how an engine works, patience, calm, and the tools I specified in those topics. I hope I'm clear now.

Edited 3 January, 2016 by RicardoM

[criiser]

I think you are not having the correct attitude here. I am trying to help and apparently you are not listening. If you have read the other too topics, I had all the patience to share my knowledge from start to finish. Part of success came from the owners paying attention to me, trusting my judgement, and doing what I explained or showed using photos and videos. It is not the right thing to become neurotic and freak out over a head gasket job. If you feel you've got too much advice from too many people, I suggest you to decide who are you gonna trust and who want you to walk you through it. I was very clear, regardless where the oil in coolant and vice versa are coming from, the cylinder head has to come off. Neither oil in coolant nor coolant in oil do good to an engine. It is common sense the problem will not go away, but worsen and damage the engine. You don't have to degrease the coolant. That is like putting makeup on a patient in ICU...

 

Stop using the car. The potential damage is minor for now, so yeah, that's good news. You have to have good mechanic skills, a good understanding of how an engine works, patience, calm, and the tools I specified in those topics. I hope I'm clear now.

 

Hey, English is not my mother tongue so I may come across as not listening. But trust me I do!!! As said initially, I read the previous threads on the headgasket Aprox 3 times each! And YES I saw that you superbly assisted both fpga and areed. And YES, i strongly believe that you and others in this super forum will easily guide also me around replacing this gasket. For me Preparation IS everything. So I read, I walk thru the steps I'm doing in my head over and over again... Do this, then this etc etc. remember this etc. This MAP, for me, is built up in non chronological order. Hence IT might come across that I was putting make up on - when I was more - When everything IS done, how the heck will i get the remaining coolant system clean?

 

So tasks in progress is:

 

Find machineshop that will unwarp the head. Sent email to two of them....

Get parts. Posted question to your friend in the other thread as well. (MAYBE add the plugs to this request if at all that is possible.

 

      http://www.cc-autodily.cz/sada-tesneni-fel-1-3mp - looks like the gaskets I need. But then I'm not that good in Czech language.

 

(Crap, realizing i need to find the EXACT enginge part nr to be more precice when ordering stuff. and using the licenseplate AND the VIN did not work out that well. When I entered the VIN into that site http://vagfans.info/ - my car had an Diesel Engine.. ?!?! So I checked and double checked.. and sadly yes... That cant be used :( )

 

By process of ellimination and the registration papers I have engine: Š 781.136M

 

(Wikipedia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%A0koda_Felicia / I have Siemes Controller in the car / The registration papers says 50 kW)

 

 

And also, trying to be positive - the car DO actually work. But as recommended, I will use it as LITTLE as possible. In fact - NOT AT ALL

 

Back to the task at hand. Those core-plugs in the head - WHILE it's off, does it hurt to replace them as well? Since the head ANYWAY is off?

 

Br, Christian

Edited 3 January, 2016 by criiser

[RicardoM]

Hey, English is not my mother tongue so I may come across as not listening.

What can I say? Welcome to the club! I speak Spanish. As far as I'm concerned, you could write in Swedish as well. I wouldn't mind. But the forum is English only.

 

Get parts. Posted question to your friend in the other thread as well. (MAYBE add the plugs to this request if at all that is possible.

His service is in early experimental stage. It means he is trying to assess the interest from people, the costs of shipping, the methods of payment, etc. Although he has access to cheapest original quality Czech parts, the shipping costs are a nightmare. I thought first that was because Czech posting services are greedy, but same thing happen when shipping stuff to Czech R. from abroad. So I recommend looking local part dealers for now.

 

And also, trying to be positive - the car DO actually work. But as recommended, I will use it as LITTLE as possible. In fact - NOT AT ALL

Of course the car works. It appears there are no leaks from combustion chambers, so the compression and combustion are not affected. For now. But both coolant and oil are contaminated. Not much, but that is how it starts.

 

Back to the task at hand. Those core-plugs in the head - WHILE it's off, does it hurt to replace them as well? Since the head ANYWAY is off?

My opinion about the possibility of core plugs leaking is this: I find very remote that to happen on stock Felicia. I would be very surprised if the plugs would get punctured like paper if pushed with a screwdriver... unless previous owners used only tap water as coolant for years. I find more probable the freezing scenario, given your location. In fact in the USA they call them 'freeze plugs' for block and head. If you can install new core plugs? Sure you can. You can put new valves, valve seats, valve guides too. Sky is the limit.

 

Flushing the cooling system: that was discussed in the topics mentioned before. There are cheap specific liquids to flush it.

 

One last advice: you could use a torque wrench to torque again the head bolts at 100 Nm. Maybe you are lucky. The engine must be cold when doing that. It is mandatory to torque the bolts in a specific order. Here is a good article. It is in Polish but Google is our friend. What service manual do you have for your car?

[felicia16v]

I'm out. So much arsing around over such a simple job. Check the core plugs properly. If it's not those then it's the head gasket simple as that I'm afraid.

Yes the head could be cracked but in 20 years as a skoda mech I've not seen a 136 head crack yet.

[criiser]

What can I say? Welcome to the club! I speak Spanish. As far as I'm concerned, you could write in Swedish as well. I wouldn't mind. But the forum is English only.

 

His service is in early experimental stage. It means he is trying to assess the interest from people, the costs of shipping, the methods of payment, etc. Although he has access to cheapest original quality Czech parts, the shipping costs are a nightmare. I thought first that was because Czech posting services are greedy, but same thing happen when shipping stuff to Czech R. from abroad. So I recommend looking local part dealers for now.

 

Of course the car works. It appears there are no leaks from combustion chambers, so the compression and combustion are not affected. For now. But both coolant and oil are contaminated. Not much, but that is how it starts.

 

My opinion about the possibility of core plugs leaking is this: I find very remote that to happen on stock Felicia. I would be very surprised if the plugs would get punctured like paper if pushed with a screwdriver... unless previous owners used only tap water as coolant for years. I find more probable the freezing scenario, given your location. In fact in the USA they call them 'freeze plugs' for block and head. If you can install new core plugs? Sure you can. You can put new valves, valve seats, valve guides too. Sky is the limit.

 

Flushing the cooling system: that was discussed in the topics mentioned before. There are cheap specific liquids to flush it.

 

One last advice: you could use a torque wrench to torque again the head bolts at 100 Nm. Maybe you are lucky. The engine must be cold when doing that. It is mandatory to torque the bolts in a specific order. Here is a good article. It is in Polish but Google is our friend. What service manual do you have for your car?

 

As for parts. Hear you, will investigate using local dealer in Sweden!

 

As for core plugs. I could interpret you are getting fed up with my questions, and obvisosly i was not specific ENOUGH. I could also buy an new car and stop asking. So this is to LEARN and to understand. I hope you understand also that I realize I can replace everything on the car, its just a matter of COST and money. So coreplugs - in the same fashion as replacing the intake gaskets and exhaust ones while doing it, have you replaced them. Where they costly - or is it more not really, just check them properly like this ->insert description<- 

 

Also, IF they froze, they should have "popped" out of position I would suspect and not still be seated as they seem to do right now. I suspect that has not happened..

 

-Flushing the coolant- heading back to the threads. Thank you for being patient.

 

"One last advice.." - Eh, hope that is not the final words...

 

As for going to 100Nm and feeling lucky - not my bag of tea.. Head is coming of, simple as that. Just need to get space in the garage to actually HAVE the car in there - -6 degrees are a PAIN to work in, Cold metal, Cold oil. human bodyparts exposed to both. PAINFULL :-)

 

 

I'm out. So much arsing around over such a simple job. Check the core plugs properly. If it's not those then it's the head gasket simple as that I'm afraid.

Yes the head could be cracked but in 20 years as a skoda mech I've not seen a 136 head crack yet.

 

I'm sorry if I come across as arsing. Not my intention at all!. I will ofc check the core plugs too as that seem really easy to do without ANY major dismantlement. Thing is I don't have tools to pressurize the coolant... (Need to build something that will do that... Using bike pump or something)

 

Any job is easy when you have done it several times before and/or have had training for it. For me, HG removal will be the FIRST in my 42 years of life. Since this is the daughters car AND i really enjoy at times work at "easy" engines (or other car LOOKS to be way to complicated for me), I'm considering undertaking this. And after reading the threads in this great forum the HG replacement SEEMS to be fairly easy. 

 

The key, for me, is when doing this - learning and understanding from other peoples mistakes. The successes are easy to focus on, but the mistakes are the ones that we ALL can and will learn from. And based from your focus on the core plugs IS that at one time that was overseen AND was actually the cause. And also might be really easy to check.

 

And another one that Rickardo pointed out was, putting the gasket the wrong way, blocking the oil. Simple error, MAJOR consequences. Those small things, are the ones I'm actually after. I call them experience - I hHave have little in this area, you and Rickardo come across has having way more.

 

Maybe I'm focusing on the wrong questions - Feel free to tell me that - Still trying to learn....

 

Kind regards,

Christian

[Breezy_Pete]

Off topic, but Christian, and Ricardo, both of you write English amazingly well.

 

Back on topic: If you do find a problem with one or more of the core plugs, I think they would be quite cheap and easy to replace, so worth being sure that they are not the problem.  Just running the engine up to normal temperature will pressurise the coolant, so if you whip the rocker cover off while the engine is up to temperature - soon after switching off - you should see coolant being extruded through any holes that exist. Ideally, until fully diagnosed, it would be better not to run the engine if you can devise a bicycle-pump method though.

 

Edit: , you have a core-plug-based electric heater? Use that to warm up and pressurise the coolant.

Edited 3 January, 2016 by Wino

[criiser]

Off topic, but Christian, and Ricardo, both of you write English amazingly well.

 

Back on topic: If you do find a problem with one or more of the core plugs, I think they would be quite cheap and easy to replace, so worth being sure that they are not the problem.  Just running the engine up to normal temperature will pressurise the coolant, so if you whip the rocker cover off while the engine is up to temperature - soon after switching off - you should see coolant being extruded through any holes that exist. Ideally, until fully diagnosed, it would be better not to run the engine if you can devise a bicycle-pump method though.

 

Edit: , you have a core-plug-based electric heater? Use that to warm up and pressurise the coolant.

Thank you! 

 

Looking at the parts site: http://www.partscats.info/ I think I find the piece i need from:

 

http://www.teilekataloge.info/Skoda/view_parts.php?catalog=sk&markt=CZ&modell=FEL&einsatz=2000&epis_typ=101&dir_name=R&hg_ug=103&bildtafel2=103060

 

IE. #23 on the exploded diagram.

 

Now, if that is 163 EURO a piece - Eh, No that is NOT being replaced.... Even with 163 Eur for 3 is a steal of a price IMHO. But then again, what would I know

 

The heater just does 40-50 degrees :( not much to increase the pressure with sadly. But good idea!!!

 

Br, C

[Breezy_Pete]

I don't think those prices are in euros, but I don't know what currency it is (Rubles?).

 

Edit: This page suggests a much friendlier price, where available.

Edited 3 January, 2016 by Wino

[criiser]

I don't think those prices are in euros, but I don't know what currency it is (Rubles?).

 

Edit: This page suggests a much friendlier price, where available.

 

Yep, grinding that site alot :-) with translate and everything.. Not THAT huge shippment costs to sweden so might be worth it if I cant get the prices here in Sweden... Found the entire gasket set on that site for an good price too so. Did NOT find them coreplugs we spoke about. Or, dont KNOW if they are hiding in there. Just did general search on Felicia 1.3

 

Br, C

[RicardoM]

C,

I was not being sarcastic at all about replacing head parts. As you said, it is only cost related. The core plugs are very cheap (1 Euro all 3) if you can find them. They are made of steel (possibly stainless) or brass. If not, they are anti-corrosion plated. They are press fitted, maybe using some sealant too. If they leak, you'll notice it right away, visually. A cooling system is tested at 1.1 bar. Now you have all info about those little suckers

 

Back to real world. Where will you do the repair job? Have a heated garage? Manuals? Tools?

[criiser]

C,

I was not being sarcastic at all about replacing head parts. As you said, it is only cost related. The core plugs are very cheap (1 Euro all 3) if you can find them. They are made of steel (possibly stainless) or brass. If not, they are anti-corrosion plated. They are press fitted, maybe using some sealant too. If they leak, you'll notice it right away, visually. A cooling system is tested at 1.1 bar. Now you have all info about those little suckers

 

Back to real world. Where will you do the repair job? Have a heated garage? Manuals? Tools?

 

In the real world I need to free up 1,7M times 7 in my warm garage that I currently have computer and "generic" junk in... Plan B - put up one of those party tents and be somewhat covered from the snow/weather. Plan C - Sneak into an garage close by and do an HIT and run mecanic.. (Litte room for errors on this one however... so Really not an option), Plan D -wait- for warmer weather...

 

Manuals, The trusty old Haynes. YES i read your rants on them :-) and YES I get that. :-D

 

Finally tools, Check. Have the large wrench set 109 pcs. And one extra with the Torx and Hex nut ones. Apart from the normal stuff. Rubber hammers, Car Jack, 4 stands to have the can On off the floor. Got all of that in the same heated "junk yard" that I so now need to clean out /make room/ Even have the Tourqe wrench to secure NM. Missing the degree thinggy when doing the two steps of 90 degrees - BUT i figure I could easily use an try square for that purpose as guide. Planning on getting the set for cleaning out the (argh, where the bolts are in.. Bolt holes?! ) - and finally borrow my nice friends compressor with compressed air... Um.. THINK thats about it apart from the "clean the coolant" solution I need to find an alternative for in Sweden and to be honest -read the thread again to find what chemicals are in the ones you recommend- (Did that with the coolant solution as G12 is NOT something we have here - But replaced it with the same name. Same goes for WD-40 - Here we have CRC 5-56 pretty much the same thing as well. Got even some loctite special chemical that should also do magic on rusted bolts and nuts...

 

Um, what am I missing, power drill and bits to that, angle grinder for TRULY emergency cases - and worst case - I might be able to borrow an induction heater device..... THAT should make any bolt release its grip... (On that note, is the lower half of the engine ALSO aluminum? - IF the bolts are heated, will that damage the "lower" parts!? )

 

Looking into getting them copper based scrapers to clean and remove the old gasket and an hefty bottle of acetone Hmm, Wonder if white scotch-sprite will do the trick too?

 

So, on the notion planning all at once and un syncronized, Read in one of the threads Valve gap adjustments. Have an nice blade measure i presume is needed for that as well. But don't know howto... YET

 

Even have an straight aluminum bar that can be used, just as the "eric" scientist mechanic did to see if the head actually IS warped or not.... together with the blade measures.

 

Anyways main concerns is at the moment:

 

1) Find shop that will and CAN level the head.

2) Get the parts that are needed.

3) Need an place to do the actual work.. Outside in -6 is NOT an option.

4) See if the plugs are leaking with some tricky gimmick and an pump 1,1 Bar is NOT un-obtainable with an bicycle pump... and the proper lid to the coolant tank...

 

And soon my Normal work will begin again, so time will also be an factor. Weekends will be the slots when time can be spent on this. So i guess the place i set this up needs to be somewhat weather proof...

 

I think that's about it.... See anything missing for the preparations apart from an actual place to do the work? :-D

 

Br, C

 

Edit: So found the reference to the cooland cleaning. Weeeeeell that is not an brand I have seen in any of the car parts shops Ive been to... Found alternative with the chemical: Natriummetasilikat 1–10 %. Dont know if thats the same as the one you referred to however... But, in swedish it says it will remove rust and "other" contaminants... Process is Empty system 443ml of this juice. Top with water. Let enginge get warm for about 10 min DRAIN instantly. Flush with water... End of story... That part might be done outdoors IF i make room for the car indoor....

Edited 3 January, 2016 by criiser

[RicardoM]

Wow, you are much better equipped than I expected... So now you have no excuse for doing an excellent job fast.

You are right about the preparation phase, it is critical. But you will always miss something and then, as we all do, you have to improvise. It's not like you repair the space shuttle

 

You have the tools, you'll free the space, you'll have the parts, the flushing solution you found is OK. I will share Skoda Felicia service manual in English with you (see PM). If you have an uneven table around your house, you can always put the Haynes manual under the shortest leg. Other than that, I / we will try to advise about common mistakes on each step. That should do.

 

The most time consuming part is cleaning the surfaces to mate of gasket material leftovers, cleaning any rust, and cleaning the threaded holes in the block. Detailing quality will pay off in the end. Other than that... patience, precision where needed, and if in doubt better ask for clarification.

 

The engine block is aluminum too, if that is what you've asked.

Oh, and if by "eric" you ment ETCG, yeah... ehem... forget about using 'scientist' near his name. Technician? Nope. Yet I have to admit he does a good job on brakes.

 

PS

No need to quote my entire post if you reply just after me. Scrolling long topics is a pain.

[criiser]

I ment "Schrodingers Box" - his name is also Eric And he comes across as more scientific! Great information from him. Especially the 12 tests for HGF...

 

Going for part now...

[criiser]

Ordered:

 

1 pcs of - 047103383D

1 pcs of - 047103483 

1 pcs of - 047253050

2 pcs of - 047253039

2 pcs of - 047129717E

2 pcs of - 047129717F

 

Total of aprox 50 Eur mor or less - 1 week delivery to my local VW.

 

Now - GET an machine shop to level the head....

 

Plan A, reuse the headbolts.. Plan B - order new

 

Br, C

Edited 4 January, 2016 by criiser

[RicardoM]

I ment "Schrodingers Box" - his name is also Eric

Actually it is Matt, but that is the least of my worries. Speaking of his 12 tests, I've realized that his 100% 'accurate' test (the CO₂ detector bubbling gizmo) doesn't work for all 6 types of HGF, but only for combustion chamber leaking to cooling system.

 

Did I mention to take photos of parts and repair steps to double check with us? Better safe than sorry.