'Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?

[domhnall]

The most money GB is wasting is benefit sytem.

Generally benefit system is a great thing which UK should be proud of but it is managed very badly. Instead of supporting working people during difficult time it is a life style for many. Encourage people to not to work, to get everything free all you need to do is breed...

The biggest chunk of welfare by a large margin is the pension system. But there is no way it will be tackled as pensioners tend to vote.

Sent from my Nexus 9 using Tapatalk

[domhnall]

Playing Devils advocate Lets say the Vote is Yes and The EU see us as a more integrated part of their Country. Complicit in giving them the green light to no longer a treat us as a sovereign nation. What's to stop them trying to establish an EU wide welfare system and scrapping ours but we still contribute the most but the spending is allocated by Brussels . They could do it by the back door, would we not be powerless to prevent this? Seeing as our MEP's don't really have a say and everything important is decided by unelected officials nominated by each country.

Because that would be an extension of eu competency and would require to be sanctioned by the council of ministers (ie we'd all be involved). Wouldn't that actually solve the issue that Dave claims us driving immigration into England? Our wonderful benefits system? In truth it's all smoke and mirrors as we have some if the least generous benefits in the UK.

Sent from my Nexus 9 using Tapatalk

[Mikek3111]

People seem to point towards benefit claimants way too easily. Not everyone who claims benefits is an intentional scrounger. More money is spent by the government supporting those who work and on a low wage than those who are out of work.

Yes there are those that abuse the system and there will always will be but what about those that generally need that get stuck with the scrounger label that you fail to recognise and unfairly discriminate against?

I worked all my adult life, from 16 to 33 sometimes 3 jobs at a time and never worked less than a 50 hr week, my wife worked from 16 to 28 when she had a medical condition that caused her to become brain damaged and unable to work, she now needs 24 hr supervision and can't be left alone with our 2 daughters due to seizures and convoltions. I quit work to become a full time carer for her and all I claim is £68 per week carers allowance. Yet I get unfairly labelelled by ignorant twits as a benefit scrounger because idiots believe it's a "lifestyle choice".

I'm not alone there are many others in situations similar to mine yet because of ignorant twits who think they are self righteous and that it will never happene to them I become a label?

Think before you open your mouths. Sometimes everyone needs help, God forbid while your thrashing round in your "VRS" that you don't have an accident that puts you out of of work and become one of the "benefit scum" you so refer too.

[swedishskoda]

Our wonderful benefits system? In truth it's all smoke and mirrors as we have some if the least generous benefits in the UK.

 

It probably cannot be denied that some people go to the UK for the benefits system. However, my guess is that there are a few other, more important factors:

1) Language. Lots of people from all over the world have sufficient broken English to get by in the UK. Much harder managing everyday life and get a job in Finland for instance.

2) among the lowest minimum wages in Europe - more unqualified jobs

3) UK opt-out from the EU Working Time Directive - cheap labour when there are applicants willing to accept a +48 hrs week.

 

Ironically, the two second factors are a consequence of not adjusting to standardised EU policy. So whether a Brexit will mean fewer immigrants or not might be an open question. Unless, of course, you blow up the tunnel...

[Ootohere]

?

Does anyone know what these unqualified jobs are that there are more of in the UK than in other EU & neighbouring countries.

What products are we growing or manufacturing or other businesses does the UK have which needs greater numbers of Unqualified workers?

[Mikek3111]

Farming? Loads of EU migrants round here working on the farms? No qualifications for picking potatoes?

[swedishskoda]

?

Does anyone know what these unqualified jobs are that there are more of in the UK than in other EU & neighbouring countries.

What products are we growing or manufacturing or other businesses does the UK have which needs greater numbers of Unqualified workers?

 

If hourly pay for pizza delivery is £6,50 in the UK and significantly higher in other West European countries, UK pizza bakeries can offer home delivery while people in Luxemburg pick up their pizzas themselves = less jobs.

[Eddie-NL]

Farming? Loads of EU migrants round here working on the farms? No qualifications for picking potatoes?

It is also the case that the farmers or gangmasters will provide accommodation for them and claw back money from them for rent

[Mikek3111]

It is also the case that the farmers or gangmasters will provide accommodation for them and claw back money from them for rent

No idea about that. My next door neighbour works for one of the bigger farms locally to us and he says that a lot of the workers they have on the farms are Polish and Portuguese, they get them through an agency for manual labour on the farms and the packing factories.

[cheezemonkhai]

Bloody farage.. a party political broadcast was on earlier, I normally turn over but was doing something at the time.. some ukip bell end banging on about housing problems in Dagenham.

Dagenham's been a difficult town to get a house in for decades, it's nothing new. Unless it's changed, it's also been incredibly racist for decades as well so, unless it's changed lately, I'm a bit surprised ukip didn't get their name on the door..

One of the women he was talking to seemed to have no desire to try and resolve her own issues and instead seemed content on blaming anyone and everyone else.

On the spending front and with the above graphs, I find this one quite scary.

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2014/3/20/1395326815809/Budget-2013-the-governmen-010.jpg

Look how much more we spend than we take in.

However we do it, we do need to trim about £100bn off our spending and some of that is going to be by restricting:

- International aid

- Spending on people who are not UK nationals

- Fee's paid to clubs that we're in (I consider the EU to be part of this).

To be honest it might help to get in a bit more corporate tax, but frankly they'd be better off lowering the rate to tempt people in, but enforcing it strongly.

The social protection (Including personal) spending is as much as the NHS and education combined!

That's not good for the people in need.

Would you rather get benefits and have to pay for your health care/education?

Debt interest of 53bn is actually the 4th biggest expenditure after:

- Social Protection

- NHS

- Education

then it's interest payments

Below that are important things like defence, transport, housing.

Can we really argue that these are unimportant?

We do actually need to start trimming things.

On the migrant front, Europe needs to agree that you get paid the benefits of your home country, paid for by your home country.

So a brit in spain gets british benefits.

A german in france gets german benefits.

A note though, that those that come and work and pay taxes actually contribute a lot to our country.

All this stupid we'll vote to say if you can stop it stuff is silly and shows me how out of control the EU has got.

It does need to reform, rather than being the big nanny state.

The argument that we pay loads into the EU is one that's not quite true.

We pay 18bn, get 5bn back in rebate and then probably get 3-4bn back in other payments.

So the net cost to us is about 9-10bn.

That would make a small dent in the defecit, but wouldn't suddenly remove it.

On the other hand, the EU has too many chambers, too many moves from Brussels to Strasbourg, too few signed off accounts and too few controls on spending.

It really needs to get it's house in order and it's own spending in control.

For me this includes stopping the vastly expensive (Approximately monthly) move from Brussels to Strasbourg, not to mention why they have Luxembourg in the mix too for some things.

Edited 3 March, 2016 by cheezemonkhai

[swedishskoda]

A note though, that those that come and work and pay taxes actually contribute a lot to our country.

 

Precisely. Therefore it makes reason that people who work and pay taxes in the UK also recieve UK benefits - and vice versa.

[cheezemonkhai]

Precisely. Therefore it makes reason that people who work and pay taxes in the UK also recieve UK benefits - and vice versa.

But how is it even sane to allow them to claim them for spouses/children who are back in the country they came from?

For the record, the contribution I was talking about wasn't financial alone, that takes a number of years to really work up.

An example is the poles doing houses up in a run down area. It's a contribution and a valuable one for sure, but not a real tax income.

It only makes sense to give it to them, once they've paid in for a number of years.

After 5 years they can apply for a right to remain here, so tie it in to that.

(You can tie it in to UK citizens having had to pay in for 5 years too if you like for all I care).

Fact is, the EU could trim it's fat, you don't need hundreds of people moving offices every month, every year.

Pick a home and stay there, or we move you to Glasgow

The benefits if each country pays it's own citizens, then the drive to move for benefits is gone and all these daft arguments go with it.

Edited 3 March, 2016 by cheezemonkhai

[Evil]

The benefits if each country pays it's own citizens, then the drive to move for benefits is gone and all these daft arguments go with it.

Isn't that risking an increase in our welfare payments?

I mean, there's more Brits in France, Germany, Spain (and others I can't remember) claiming benefits over there than their equivalent claiming over here.

[cheezemonkhai]

Isn't that risking an increase in our welfare payments?

I mean, there's more Brits in France, Germany, Spain (and others I can't remember) claiming benefits over there than their equivalent claiming over here.

Quite possibly, but it's

a. fair

b. stops our lot from whinging about the "bloody foreigners"

c. removes any possible desire to move EU country just for benefits

Edited 3 March, 2016 by cheezemonkhai

[bilun777]

One of the women he was talking to seemed to have no desire to try and resolve her own issues and instead seemed content on blaming anyone and everyone else.

On the spending front and with the above graphs, I find this one quite scary.

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2014/3/20/1395326815809/Budget-2013-the-governmen-010.jpg

Look how much more we spend than we take in.

However we do it, we do need to trim about £100bn off our spending and some of that is going to be by restricting:

- International aid

- Spending on people who are not UK nationals

- Fee's paid to clubs that we're in (I consider the EU to be part of this).

To be honest it might help to get in a bit more corporate tax, but frankly they'd be better off lowering the rate to tempt people in, but enforcing it strongly.

The social protection (Including personal) spending is as much as the NHS and education combined!

That's not good for the people in need.

Would you rather get benefits and have to pay for your health care/education?

Debt interest of 53bn is actually the 4th biggest expenditure after:

- Social Protection

- NHS

- Education

then it's interest payments

Below that are important things like defence, transport, housing.

Can we really argue that these are unimportant?

We do actually need to start trimming things.

On the migrant front, Europe needs to agree that you get paid the benefits of your home country, paid for by your home country.

So a brit in spain gets british benefits.

A german in france gets german benefits.

A note though, that those that come and work and pay taxes actually contribute a lot to our country.

All this stupid we'll vote to say if you can stop it stuff is silly and shows me how out of control the EU has got.

It does need to reform, rather than being the big nanny state.

The argument that we pay loads into the EU is one that's not quite true.

We pay 18bn, get 5bn back in rebate and then probably get 3-4bn back in other payments.

So the net cost to us is about 9-10bn.

That would make a small dent in the defecit, but wouldn't suddenly remove it.

On the other hand, the EU has too many chambers, too many moves from Brussels to Strasbourg, too few signed off accounts and too few controls on spending.

It really needs to get it's house in order and it's own spending in control.

For me this includes stopping the vastly expensive (Approximately monthly) move from Brussels to Strasbourg, not to mention why they have Luxembourg in the mix too for some things.

If this really is the case ,I'm out.

What is slighty worrying is I can't see any remotely  viable case to stay in....

[Ootohere]

I know how many unqualified to process crops and foods work in the UK like slave labour, i live in the area where many are in cold sheds and units and factories doing just that.

(I asked why anyone think there are more jobs for unqualified in the UK, seeing as it is not a large area or actually as productive as many other 

country in the Western World who also use unqualified workers.)

 

The thing is that people forget they might be highly trained, qualified and educated to do many other jobs, having a higher standard of education than many in the UK and able to talk more languages or learn them,

but are here doing unqualified manual jobs are what the do because it is near impossible to have non migrants that are British doing the work.

[Evil]

Quite possibly, but it's

a. fair

b. stops our lot from whinging about the "bloody foreigners"

c. removes any possible desire to move EU country just for benefits

 

Can't argue with that.. I mean, France is reputed to be paying 3x what 'we' are.

 

If this really is the case ,I'm out.

What is slighty worrying is I can't see any remotely  viable case to stay in....

I have quite a simplified view of politics, only really started looking at it at the latter stages of the last general election. I don't understand the finer points, probably never will, but I think I have a grasp of some of the basics.

What really worries me, from the information I have been exposed to, is that leaving the EU will remove their 'protection' for a number of our rights (us, the regular people, I mean) leaving us at even greater risk from the current occupiers of 10 Downing Street - who, it would seem, are intent on tearing the country apart while lining their own pockets to the detriment (and some deaths) of anyone not of their ilk.

 

Under a different government I would possibly vote 'out'.. but not while the tories are throttling us.

 

If that makes any sense at all.

[cheezemonkhai]

If this really is the case ,I'm out.

What is slighty worrying is I can't see any remotely  viable case to stay in....

From the EU itself:

http://www.europarl.org.uk/en/about-us/faqs.html#TOP

17. Why does Parliament move between Brussels and Strasbourg?

The EU's national governments unanimously decided in 1992 to fix permanently the seat of the EU institutions. The official seat and venue for most of the plenary sessions is Strasbourg, Parliamentary Committees and Political Group meetings are held in Brussels and administrative staff are based in Luxembourg. Any change to this current system would need to be part of a new treaty and unanimously agreed by all Member States.

The Daily Fail showing they were going to stop it in 2013 (But they still do it - not that the fail is a good source):

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2510535/European-Parliament-scrap-Strasbourg-HQ-make-Brussels-sole-seat.html

Same goes for the sun:

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/politics/5374519/Brussels-to-Strasbourg-move-is-EU-fail-of-two-cities.html

Better is this translated German report:

http://www.euractiv.com/section/future-eu/news/auditors-put-price-tag-on-eu-parliament-travelling-circus/

This french report shows they'll never let go of it:

http://www.thelocal.fr/20131121/why-the-eu-parliament-must-remain-in-strasbourg

City AM shows the figures of €114m a year come from the EU's own auditors.

http://www.cityam.com/1406894810/eu-parliament-lavishes-114m-year-moving-brussels-strasbourg

So every year we blow in excess of 100m, just to move around.

I dread to think if that includes all the extra expenses claims etc.

Worrying isn't it.

[bilun777]

Quick Edit To EVIL #342.sorry no sense at all .

It' s not "our" Government trying to ,as you say ,"Tear the country apart "

It's all the unelected, faceless Bureacrats  in europe .

That's the point isn't it? It doesn't matter whether it's "call me Dave" or Jeremy (" I've now forgotten why I've always wanted to leave Europe until now.")Corbyn.That's in Downing Street.

For me it's our total lack of Sovereignty over our own country...

Edited 3 March, 2016 by bilun777

[cheezemonkhai]

Can't argue with that.. I mean, France is reputed to be paying 3x what 'we' are.

Like I say if we end up paying more, then we can't make the excuse that it's those b****y immigrants.

That way there is no incentive (perceived or real) to move for benefits.

When you look at the E111 (EHIC now), effectively you pay for your own citizens health care across the EU, so why not the social protection too.

(Well except the NHS is really rubbish at claiming this back from other EU countries or travel insurance)

[Evil]

Quick Edit To EVIL #342.sorry no sense at all .

It' s not "our" Government trying to ,as you say ,"Tear the country apart "

It's all the unelected, faceless Bureacrats  in europe 

So the tories aren't selling everything off to their pals, cutting the crap out of the welfare for the most vulnerable in society, advocating zero hours contracts, stripping our human rights and other stuff I've forgotten?

Edited 3 March, 2016 by Evil

[cheezemonkhai]

So the tories aren't selling everything off to their pals, cutting the crap out of the welfare for the most vulnerable in society, advocating zero hours contracts, stripping our human rights and other stuff I've forgotten?

They are, but it would be nice if we (the voters) thought our vote would make a difference.

They would also again be unable to blame the EU for everything.

Plus, you could have actually propped up the steel industry, even if via a loan, if it wasn't for EU state aid rules.

(Not that it stopped them for the banks).

To be fair many other countries ignore the EU legislation when it suits them, but the fact they keep telling us the world will end if the UK leaves, suggests to me that it's their world and their gravy train that might fall apart more than ours.

[bilun777]

I don't know?

But I fail to see why that has anything to do with ,as the OP says,"Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union,or leave the European Union?

[Evil]

I don't know?

But I fail to see why that has anything to do with ,as the OP says,"Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union,or leave the European Union?

So you counter my post and, when you have no response to the reply, cry off topic?

Weak man. 

 

And, from where I'm sitting, the government is very relevant to my vote. So it has everything to do with it.

[bilun777]

So you counter my post and, when you have no response to the reply, cry off topic?

Weak man. 

 

And, from where I'm sitting, the government is very relevant to my vote. So it has everything to do with it.

I didn't counter your post.

I did respond.

I didn't cry "Off Topic".

Please Troll elsewhere.