EU referendum/Brexit discussion - Part 2

[lol-lol]

14 hours ago, vrskeith said:

 

 

 

May's "plan" is only an interim arrangement, perhaps until Dec 2020 and perhaps somewhat later.  Volume car companies could breath a sigh of relief if the May deal goes through as at least it give certainly for the next 25 months. Would not imagine there would be any new production lines planned until the actual customs deal post the interim plan is sorted.

 

Labour should seriously consider supporting the May plan as it is pretty much what they wanted ie honouring the BREXIT vote but staying in the EU 's customs union for a significant period of time plus it probably would have the bi-product of tearing the Con party apart.  

 

 

 

Edited 18 November, 2018 by lol-lol

[Ryeman]

It’s interesting that the latest polling indicates a larger majority for remain than the original ‘win’.

[lol-lol]

50 minutes ago, Ryeman said:

It’s interesting that the latest polling indicates a larger majority for remain than the original ‘win’.

 

Hundreds of thousands who voted for BREXIT are now dead whilst their are hundreds of thousands who have turned 18 who demographics say would vote remain. Not sure the middle bit of voters have changed their minds.

[Ryeman]

2 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

 

Hundreds of thousands who voted for BREXIT are now dead whilst their are hundreds of thousands who have turned 18 who demographics say would vote remain. Not sure the middle bit of voters have changed their minds.

The great unknown is exactly what effect a pre poll poll indicating 52-48 remain had on those who were of the (status quo) contented class.

To me, Trump and Brexit were of the shooting your own foot variety.

At least an Australian result is a true reflection of intent.

[Ootohere]

Turn out was 72.21%, and that is of those that were Registered to vote, 46 1/2 million.   

nothing like the number that could have been registered to vote in the British Isles or where ever they were around the world.

[Ryeman]

2 minutes ago, Offski said:

Turn out was 72.21%, and that is of those that were Registered to vote, 46 1/2 million.   

nothing like the number that could have been registered to vote in the British Isles or where ever they were around the world.

What I find most objectionable is the need to make people irrationally angry in order to get them to vote for the biggest liars.

[Ootohere]

Those Liars are Members of Parliament so voted in anyway, Peers / Lords not voted in, even failed politicians.

Non elected Government Employees or Advisers to Parties and Politicians. 

Captains of Industry and major employers etc etc.

 

So the same liars that run the Government, Opposition, Economy etc day in and day out.    Liars regularly for General Elections or Local Elections or Referendums.

 

Nobody ever seems to hold the fact they lie and deceive or de-fraud against them.

Actually if caught promote them, punt them & give them a Knighthood. 

(if they are really naughty threaten to remove the Knighthood, but only if the Media Barons decide to back that happening.)

[Ryeman]

So what was ‘in it’ for these players -

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/nov/17/arron-banks-emails-steve-bannon-brexit-campaign-funds

[Ootohere]

Money / Wealth, Power / Influence and a newish World Order.

 

[lol-lol]

1 hour ago, Offski said:

Those Liars are Members of Parliament so voted in anyway, Peers / Lords not voted in, even failed politicians.

Non elected Government Employees or Advisers to Parties and Politicians. 

Captains of Industry and major employers etc etc.

 

So the same liars that run the Government, Opposition, Economy etc day in and day out.    Liars regularly for General Elections or Local Elections or Referendums.

 

Nobody ever seems to hold the fact they lie and deceive or de-fraud against them.

Actually if caught promote them, punt them & give them a Knighthood. 

(if they are really naughty threaten to remove the Knighthood, but only if the Media Barons decide to back that happening.)

 

What is stunning in some in the Con party the do not care about manufacturing industry for the UK as they seem to believe we can "just" be finance. 

 

 

https://www.lemonde.fr/economie/article/2018/07/06/brexit-le-****-business-de-boris-johnson-risque-de-se-retourner-en-****-britain_5327111_3234.html

Brexit : « Le “F*CK business” de Boris Johnson risque de se retourner en “F*UK Britain” »

Le vibrionnant ministre britannique s’attire les foudres des milieux d’affaires, qui avertissent qu’un « hard Brexit » sans transition ni aménagement se traduira par des délocalisations, explique Philippe Escande, éditorialiste économique au « Monde »

Par Philippe Escande Publié le 06 juillet 2018 à 12h07 - Mis à jour le 06 juillet 2018 à 12h09

Temps deLecture 2 min.

 

 

Edited 18 November, 2018 by lol-lol

[Ryeman]

Plenty capable of criticism - few (if any) capable of submitting a workable alternative.

They (Farage and Johnson) are convincing blowhards though.

What is most incredible is the complete lack of understanding of a potential Irish problem returning .

[Ootohere]

The EU might not need the UK or dependencies but the Republic of Ireland seems to be a bit UK dependent.

Let them sort out their own problems, they are very EU dependent as well, they stayed in, their voters voted that way for the ROI, but those that got a vote as well on the UK staying or leaving could have voted anyway, and nobody knows how they did vote.

[181ce]

Offski don't for get the Irish "problem ",is all England's doing in the first place {removed}

Edited 18 November, 2018 by john999boy
{Comment removed by Staff}

[lol-lol]

European Research Group's summary of the 585 page Withdrawal Agreement........

 

http://2mbg6fgb1kl380gtk22pbxgw-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/Your-Right-to-Know.pdf 

 

Your Right to Know:

The Case against Chequers and the Draft Withdrawal Agreement in plain English 

 

Summary: The case against the proposed Withdrawal Agreement on 1 page

1. We would hand over £39 billion of taxpayer’s money with nothing guaranteed in return. Under the proposal the UK would agree a financial settlement with the EU of c.£39 billion, made up of various elements, including continued EU budget contributions during the transition period (up to December 2020), contributions to unfunded EU commitments and EU pensions. Despite offering this vast sum of British taxpayer’s money the United Kingdom is not guaranteed any future trading arrangements, which are still to be negotiated.

2. The UK will remain a ‘rule taker’ over large areas of EU law. The UK will continue to be bound by EU laws in vital areas such as social policy, environmental policy and employment policy, i.e will obey EU laws, but have no further influence over how they are drafted. We will thus become a ‘rule taker’ and will have surrendered our sovereignty in these critical areas.

3. No exit from a ‘backstop’ Customs Union. The agreement establishes a ‘joint committee’ which will oversee the UK’s ability to proceed to a future trade relationship. If this relationship cannot be agreed by both parties the UK will enter a so called ‘backstop’ Customs Union with the EU, despite many public assurances to the contrary and directly at variance with the Conservative Party’s 2017 General Election manifesto. We could only subsequently leave the Customs Union with the agreement of the EU. While we remain in a Customs Union we would be unable to strike international trade deals without the EU’s permission.

 4. The Agreement creates internal borders within the UK. Northern Ireland would become a ‘rule taker’ in further areas such as goods, agricultural products and VAT compared to the rest of the UK. This threatens the internal integrity of the United Kingdom and is completely unacceptable to the Democratic Unionist Party on whom the Conservative Party now rely for a majority in the House of Commons.

5. The European Court of Justice (ECJ) will remain in control of the agreement and large areas of EU law directly effective in the UK. The ECJ will remain as the final arbiter of the agreement and of the EU laws the UK will be subject to.

In summary, the combination of these measures means the United Kingdom will have not left the European Union but will instead be ‘half in and half out’. This will mean that we will become a ‘vassal state’ many of whose laws will have been created abroad and over which we have no influence. This is completely against the spirit of the 2016 referendum in which 17.4 million UK citizens voted to leave the European Union..............

Edited 18 November, 2018 by lol-lol

[Ootohere]

@181ce 

 That is OK then as long as it was England & not the UK, they were the same with Wales Scotland and Northern Ireland.

 

So now ROI is the backstop, or as some might call it the Butt Plug.

Something needed to stop it as being used as a back passage for getting stuff in and out of the British Isles as it has been getting used for decades.

Edited 18 November, 2018 by Offski

[181ce]

15 minutes ago, Offski said:

@181ce 

 That is OK then as long as it was England & not the UK, they were the same with Wales Scotland and Northern Ireland.

 

So now ROI is the backstop, or as some might call it the Butt Plug.

Something needed to stop it as being used as a back passage for getting stuff in and out of the British Isles as it has been getting used for decades.

We were a country before ye lot came along its entirety here fault north ern Ireland exists,ye deserve everything thing that's due

[Ootohere]

Who is you lot?   

Are you some sort of a crazy fud?  If you are Anti-English do not include me in your rant.  

Edited 18 November, 2018 by Offski

[181ce]

I'm not anti English at all

Just admit to the carnage the empire caused around the world.

It is full stop yere fault northen Ireland exists at all.

You now the same way the Germans accept that Naziism happened,and have spent the last near 100 years trying to make amends,unlike glorious Brittania

[domhnall]

16 minutes ago, 181ce said:

I'm not anti English at all

Just admit to the carnage the empire caused around the world.

It is full stop yere fault northen Ireland exists at all.

You now the same way the Germans accept that Naziism happened,and have spent the last near 100 years trying to make amends,unlike glorious Brittania

 

actually in fairness , the Irish and the Scots were as much involved in the running of the Empire as anyone. The policy was all set in London to be sure (ie the creation and continuance of the Empire were English decisions for sure) but those administering and managing it were just as much Irish and Scottish as they were English. We tend to not like to admit that these days and blame it on the nasty English but the other countries involved aren't blameless. 

[@Lee]

No deal is still a very real possibility.

 

Quote

UK running out of food warehouse space as no-deal Brexit fears rise

Owners of storage facilities say demand has reached ‘fever pitch’ since last week’s chaos

https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2018/nov/18/uk-running-out-of-food-warehouse-space-as-no-deal-brexit-fears-rise?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other&__twitter_impression=true

[@Lee]

In arguing that leaving will boost British sovereignty, the Brexiters coddled themselves in 19th-century imperial fantasies. Here in the 21st century, virtually all the major challenges faced by developed nations are global: climate change, microbial resistance, regulating the tech giants, to name just some. They will be solved only through international collaboration, and while the EU is far from perfect it is by far the most successful model the world has seen. To leave at a time the world is getting darker; when we have a fiercely nationalist, anti-global US president who is openly contemptuous of Britain; when trade wars are the new norm; when Russia is more insurgent than at any time since the cold war; is nothing short of lunacy, a terrible act of self-immolation.

Far from establishing the “will of the people”, the referendum created a democratic deficit: a narrow margin in favour of leaving the EU, but with no mandate dictating the terms and the cost of such. The Leave campaigns - both of which we now know broke electoral law - fed the public misinformation and untruths: the idea we could seize back control and get richer in the process, freeing up cash for the NHS, all without jeopardising the union. We cannot make sense of the 2016 result without a second-stage referendum on the terms of our exit.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/nov/17/observer-view-on-brexit-the-people-must-have-a-say?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

[Aspman]

On 18/11/2018 at 09:11, lol-lol said:

 

Hundreds of thousands who voted for BREXIT are now dead whilst their are hundreds of thousands who have turned 18 who demographics say would vote remain. Not sure the middle bit of voters have changed their minds.

 

That's no reallt fair. Brexit was voted for predominantly by the elderly vote who are more likely to be registered to vote and more likely to turn up and vote.

If the lazy ****** young had been registered and had put down their ****ing smashed avocado or x-boxes down long enough to turn up to a ****ing polling station it never would have gone through.

 

IF we ever get another vote I'm sure this time there will be enough motivation to feckin vote  and there is no chance it would go through however I'm not hopeful that they'll get a chance.

Edited 19 November, 2018 by Aspman

[Ryeman]

The opportunists waiting in the wings -

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/16/opinion/sunday/brexit-theresa-may-politics.html

[domhnall]

23 hours ago, Aspman said:

 

That's no reallt fair. Brexit was voted for predominantly by the elderly vote who are more likely to be registered to vote and more likely to turn up and vote.

If the lazy ****** young had been registered and had put down their ****ing smashed avocado or x-boxes down long enough to turn up to a ****ing polling station it never would have gone through.

 

IF we ever get another vote I'm sure this time there will be enough motivation to feckin vote  and there is no chance it would go through however I'm not hopeful that they'll get a chance.

 

 

not really fair that either, the young were also sold on dreams of English nationalism, that's what drove it through. I suspect that's why the message worked in England (and bizarrely Wales) but not in Scotland or Northern Ireland. But at the end of the day the numbers dictate that whatever England decides, the rest have to follow. WHich is why a targeted English nationalist message was the brexiteers' best option. 

[Aspman]

46 minutes ago, domhnall said:

 

 

not really fair that either, the young were also sold on dreams of English nationalism, that's what drove it through. I suspect that's why the message worked in England (and bizarrely Wales) but not in Scotland or Northern Ireland. But at the end of the day the numbers dictate that whatever England decides, the rest have to follow. WHich is why a targeted English nationalist message was the brexiteers' best option. 

 

Well we're all agreed on something.... it's no fair!