So, a private ownership market, with an increasing number of owners in the higher age-group bracket/ limited incomes.

 

And what do the manufacturers do as a long-term sales strategy . . . everything that will alienate older customers - shortening  the design life,  over-sophisticating the systems with more inter system dependencies (Think modern electrics) resulting in more complicated and more "Beyond economic repair" failures short of the design life. Let alone modern bodywork with all those double curves on the same panel and highly technical shut-lines driving up repair costs.

 

They've effectively increased the fixed-cost costs of  car ownership by making daily depreciation go through the roof.

 

Brilliant. Increased fixed costs and, hence depreciation rates is really going to appeal to bods on limited incomes with a low vehicle use profile.

 

And, of course, my bette noire, they made cabin ergonomics, even more problematic for people with reduced mobility (If that's possible), on the principle that its much more important to have a pretty outside than a usuable/easily driveable inside.

 

Older peeps will ditching car ownership in favour of taxis and hire cars for occasional longer use faster than the spread of the Black Death.

 

Motoring industry nit wits.

 

. . . unless that's part of a wider social/environmental strategy which the motoring nit wits are implementing for govt.

 

 

N.

Edited 15 November, 20169 yr by Clunkclick

I've always gone for low spec in the past for the reasons you state. The Fabia has wind up windows, no aircon or central locking which at 13 years old might well go wrong no matter how well I've cared for it.

I chose my current daily driver car, a Toyota Hybrid, as the technology is proven as reliable and is actually mechanically simple. No clutch, no turbo, low stressed engine, no timing belt or any belt driven ancillaries. In 10 years time it will have done 200k miles and at that point will owe me nothing.

Car Mechanics Magazine have just got a 160k miles 2005 Prius for £1500 as a project car, I think as mechanics get used to the tech of modern cars we'll be less afraid to repair it

i have started to look at prius now :P

but the lack of power puts me off 74bhp... how ever the new one has 134bhp but also has all the said additional gimics and gadgetry to break :(

I'm going to have to get me a pair of these rose tinted glasses, my experience of older cars is that they were nowhere near as competent, safe, fast, comfortable, spacious, quiet or fuel efficient.

 

Yes some older cars were good and there are many older cars that are considered classics for a good reason but a mass market car now is vastly superior in just about every way to a mass market car of the 1980's...

Built in obsolescence i think its called.

 

I am convinced that Vauxhall have the best one currently in the Zafira and recently found in the Corsa - only problem is that it does not have the Mission Impossible warning voice of - This car will self destruct in 10 seconds    

I'm going to have to get me a pair of these rose tinted glasses, my experience of older cars is that they were nowhere near as competent, safe, fast, comfortable, spacious, quiet or fuel efficient.

 

Yes some older cars were good and there are many older cars that are considered classics for a good reason but a mass market car now is vastly superior in just about every way to a mass market car of the 1980's...

 

Think you'll find that's the impression that your 'ooh sparkly new thing' tinted glasses are putting on these cheaply made, not very good and designed to fail quickly modern cars. :p

I genuinely understand where you are coming from with your opening statement on this, its a pain in the backside sometimes but I will use my E39 as an example, its a late 2003 3.0 diesel, has a few niggles but is on 185000 miles, costs a bit on maintenance but I am struggling to find a better all round car, just for pure overall driving and enjoyment of a car.

 

It also has a full sized spare alloy, first aid kit, rechargeable torch, toolkit, triangle,jack wheel chock etc. 

 

Modern cars seem to come with the minimal needed to make sure you are safe and are all very much the same and not built to meet standards rather then what engineers/designers want to do. 

 

Favourite features are that it has an extendable boot floor, heated seats, and the ability to add options to it fairly easily from similar age cars, as in I have a set of 7 series contour seats to fit which are wingback leather seats all bar. 

 

Not forgetting the flappy paddle retrofit as well  

Edited 16 November, 20169 yr by sigarland1987

cheaply made, not very good and designed to fail quickly

and that's the point, this is nothing new! Car manufacturers make their money by selling cars, to sell more cars its beneficial to them to ensure that the cars they make do not last for ever.

 

How many Sierras, Escorts, Orions, Cavaliers, Senators, Omegas, Corollas, Camrys etc. do you see on the roads? not very many because they have all blown up and fallen apart...

and that's the point, this is nothing new! Car manufacturers make their money by selling cars, to sell more cars its beneficial to them to ensure that the cars they make do not last for ever.

 

How many Sierras, Escorts, Orions, Cavaliers, Senators, Omegas, Corollas, Camrys etc. do you see on the roads? not very many because they have all blown up and fallen apart...

 

You won't see many modern ordinary cars last more than 15yr just because they are exponentially more complex than cars of 20yr ago.

 

I don't think they reliability has really improved, I think we hit a plateau in the last 90s. It might be that overall components in cars are more reliable but there are so many more of them that the probability of a single failure is higher. That's just probability working.

 

Computer controlled machinery has allowed for much higher tolerences in manufacturing. Where as 20yr ago metal would be thicker because they couldn't be made to the desired tolerance now they can get to the bare minimum much more easily.

 

Efficiency is probably up, but so is the size and weight of cars, driven by legislation and McDonald's burgers.

 

We're back to idiots again, lots of idiots buy cars and most of them don't want to keep them a long time. So why build a car to last 10yr?

20yr ago people were happier to drive older cars. None of us (well very few) would ever have considered a new car even a little **** box like a Corsa.

I'm going to have to get me a pair of these rose tinted glasses, my experience of older cars is that they were nowhere near as competent, safe, fast, comfortable, spacious, quiet or fuel efficient.

 

Yes some older cars were good and there are many older cars that are considered classics for a good reason but a mass market car now is vastly superior in just about every way to a mass market car of the 1980's...

We have made progress in any areas and you are right, in just about every way cars are better now than the 80s.

 

However, as Aspman says, I think we reached a plateau in the late 90s after years of computer design and have now gone off track, not making cars better but to comply with pointless legislation and false testing we have added more unnecessary complexity to save a small amount of emissions, we've reduced panel thickness and lost items like a spare wheel.

 

We have made huge improvements in corrosion protection and safety, but gone off on a tangent with huge wheels and tiny sidewall tyres plus harder suspension and a fixation with handling over comfort.

 

I'm pleased with the crash protection but not happy with poorer visibility, same with mpg vs longevity/complexity and so on.

 

Could we not take the best, ditch the poor ideas and come to a compromise with a strong, practical and well built car with reasonable emissions and safety with a reduction in complexity?

 

Compare a 2002 Passat TDI with the same 2016 model; if you could buy both new now today, which would cover the highest mileage and age with the least faults and expense? 

Take the safety and qualities of the new car and equip it with the simpler drivetrain and systems of the earlier car....

and that's the point, this is nothing new! Car manufacturers make their money by selling cars, to sell more cars its beneficial to them to ensure that the cars they make do not last for ever.

 

How many Sierras, Escorts, Orions, Cavaliers, Senators, Omegas, Corollas, Camrys etc. do you see on the roads? not very many because they have all blown up and fallen apart...

 

You won't see many of those cars as their owners traded them in during the scrappage scheme for generic white goods motoring. Some lovely old barges in my area became Kia Picantos overnight.

Given that the real "Step-change" improvements in vehicle efficiency occur at an interval of 20 years/250,000 miles,  what's the point of changing a roadworthy vehicle any sooner (Unless the user is consistently motoring over average mileage) ? 

 

If marketeers, corporate profits and shareholder returns demand a shorter interval  and provide for a shorter design life, and if potential purchasers are happy to accept this depreciation premium, then,  IMHO, a proportional  environmental impact levy should be raised at the time of purchase to reflect the degree to which vehicle design life undershoots the period of the  20 year efficiency  improvement cycle and therefore damages the environment to a greater extent. 

 

 

Nick

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If any of you havent seen this, maybe worth a look, i will quote a bit  -  "Above all it is disruptive, turning the traditional business incentive to design cars for obsolescence on its head.  In fact, when you sell “mobility” as a service the business incentive is to design cars for longevity, low running costs and sustainability".

 

http://www.riversimple.com/invest-company-driven-differently/

some clear positive change here, it will filter down in 10 years :P

 

There is a sweet Dolly with a supercharged 1.6 mazda engine on the triumph Dolomite owners club. If only I had the cash.

Or this volvo currently on the bay

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/172403490685

Just awesome

If any of you havent seen this, maybe worth a look, i will quote a bit  -  "Above all it is disruptive, turning the traditional business incentive to design cars for obsolescence on its head.  In fact, when you sell “mobility” as a service the business incentive is to design cars for longevity, low running costs and sustainability".

 

http://www.riversimple.com/invest-company-driven-differently/

I'm waiting for the launch, went to see them at the London Motor Show they're talking £350pcm to lease inc insurance, breakdown, maintenance and fuel, plus any updates to the tech

 

Awesome in the flesh too, I worked on the former head of design's mk1 Honda Insight which gave a lot of its styling...

I'm waiting for the launch, went to see them at the London Motor Show they're talking £350pcm to lease inc insurance, breakdown, maintenance and fuel, plus any updates to the tech

 

Awesome in the flesh too, I worked on the former head of design's mk1 Honda Insight which gave a lot of its styling...

Yes sounds a fantastic approach, i do have issues though and have emailed them my concern. I feel that if as they say they aim to make only 5000 cars a year, then they will end up going to the rich investors, and after that collectors with media influences, after that collectors mates etc. So are they producing these cars for the real working class people that actually want a change? 

Yes sounds a fantastic approach, i do have issues though and have emailed them my concern. I feel that if as they say they aim to make only 5000 cars a year, then they will end up going to the rich investors, and after that collectors with media influences, after that collectors mates etc. So are they producing these cars for the real working class people that actually want a change? 

I've spoken to the entire team at length, the biggest hurdles are investment (crowdfunding has been ongoing), getting the hydrogen infrastructure in place, then getting production costs down and the ability to produce in numbers.  They have a great idea but I wonder how the reality will be?  There is huge up-front cost with only long term lease income....

 

They originally set up in Ludlow, then move to Llandrindod Wells to create a workforce in a deprived area and gain Welsh Assembly funding, giving apprenticeships to local kids, they seem to have a strong ethic and want this to be a revolution in the way people approach transport; truly sustainable long term usage without ownership.

 

I wanted to be one of the first triallers and was going to buy some shares, but I understand the testing will happen with a few cars around one hydrogen source in South Wales to begin with.

 

Watch this space....

I previously owned a Renault Twizy and would love one of these...perhaps this is the next motoring quantum leap; longevity and simplicity following an era of ever-increasing complexity...

some clear positive change here, it will filter down in 10 years :p

 

Very very interesting, saw him on Jay Lenos garage , everything done in house, hes reinventing the wheel. freevalve 240 bhp and double the torque and cleaner combustion, lighter no precat 15% fuel saving from a 1.6 turbo, better packaging and 20 kilos lighter and thats before precats and no timing belt to break  if china do produce this engine it will make others from the dark ages

I've spoken to the entire team at length, the biggest hurdles are investment (crowdfunding has been ongoing), getting the hydrogen infrastructure in place, then getting production costs down and the ability to produce in numbers.  They have a great idea but I wonder how the reality will be?  There is huge up-front cost with only long term lease income....

 

They originally set up in Ludlow, then move to Llandrindod Wells to create a workforce in a deprived area and gain Welsh Assembly funding, giving apprenticeships to local kids, they seem to have a strong ethic and want this to be a revolution in the way people approach transport; truly sustainable long term usage without ownership.

 

I wanted to be one of the first triallers and was going to buy some shares, but I understand the testing will happen with a few cars around one hydrogen source in South Wales to begin with.

 

Watch this space....

I previously owned a Renault Twizy and would love one of these...perhaps this is the next motoring quantum leap; longevity and simplicity following an era of ever-increasing complexity...

 

Ye i feel without a Elon Musk / Mark Zuckerberg type investor, for this to be a huge step requires huge investment, the investment is needed to keep production cost low, and services efficient, then there is the infrastructure for making hydrogen available. Its taken over 10 years and huge pressure and finance from the likes of Tesla to start getting electric points, and even now its a long way off what is needed. There was no way a indie crowd funded company could have managed the change in electric, i feel its not possible with hydrogen, without significant backing/ joint venture/ take over. With that backing lets hope the ethos is not compromised. And lets not forget, we dont know what other companies like Tesla are working on behind closed doors.

Edited 18 November, 20169 yr by FromTheDarkness

I saw this and thought it illustrated how cars have grown -

 

 

Edited 5 March, 20179 yr by Brian69

1 hour ago, Brian69 said:

I saw this and thought it illustrated how cars have grown -

 

 

 

And are still growing. I thought the 3 series was a mid sized saloon but I'm finding it hard to park within a normal space. It's not much shorter than the Accord I had which I thought was supertanker long.

 

If you see an 80s car on the road, something ordinary like a golf, it's shocking how small they look.A Mk 1/2 golf is probably smaller than a fiesta now. They had just as much room inside because the sides of cars now are filled with safety measures making them thick and heavy.

2 hours ago, Brian69 said:

I saw this and thought it illustrated how cars have grown -

 

 

 

Just compare an original 1959 Mini with the modern "Mini"... I tend to call the modern "Mini" a Maxi (anyone else remember them?).

 

Last year a friend parked his Superb estate next to a modern Mini in a car park, and we were both convinced the Mini looked bigger - which is ridiculous.

Edited 5 March, 20179 yr by SWBoy

Just remember the first Mini Minor, Toyota Corolla https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Corolla, Honda Civic et al 

ignoring the safety aspects of course 

15 minutes ago, Ryeman said:

Just remember the first Mini Minor, Toyota Corolla https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Corolla, Honda Civic et al 

ignoring the safety aspects of course 

They didn't ignore the safety aspects, we've all become less adept at assessing risk as the 'Elf & Safety lobby have become vocal. It's been argued by those who study human behaviour that we all "need" to perceive a certain level of risk, so as cars become inherently safer we "compensate" by driving more dangerously.

 

Still doesn't seem a good enough reason for a "Mini" to be the same size as a Superb

Edited 5 March, 20179 yr by SWBoy