Evening all, back after a break 

 

I bought an Auto Express for the first time in ages (used to have a subscription) and flicked through eagerly looking for new exciting stuff.

 

It dawned on me; I am liking new cars less and less and nothing is making me excited or curious now, we just seem to get more and more tech and less and less practicality.

 

I see less clever designand more design by committee and an ever shorter lifespan due to the huge cost of sorting electronic complexity and ever more complex drive-trains which will make a vehicle uneconomical to repair when they fail.  We've conquered rust and leaks and general ageing of the materials, but built in obsolescence of the electronics, turbos, superchargers and safety kit (eg active bonnets).

 

This march towards being a passenger rather than a driver without the obvious advantage of being autonomous back from the pub is turning me off completely.

 

What happened to car seats that fold flat to form a double bed?

Where's the tool kit, spare wheel and practical stuff?

Why are all cars not supplied with a fire extinguisher safely mounted? A first aid kit and triangle?

Why do we have rubber mats over carpet rather than rubber floors with carpet mats over?

Why do we have to have an SUV to get ground clearance, unlike most Russian cars which get decent clearance as standard?

What is this nonsense about sportiness and stupid big wheels?  Give me huge sidewalls and soft suspension!

Why the awful visibility and high dashboards?

Why complicate everything-my cars have clutch and throttle cables, not potentiometers, can-bus, ECU involvement and actuators or hydraulics...

Why all these stupid fashion LED/Xenon/cornering lights when a decent lens H4 unit with upgrade bulbs works far better?

Why no temperature gauges on many new cars?  I don't want a red light to let me know it is about to blow...

 

I use my cars as a comfortable refuge or a mobile part of home and have drinks, food, books, blankets etc on board and see every journey as an adventure.  My first cars were Lada Rivas and these were superb, but the modern day alternative is the Dacia, which loses a lot of the functionality and durability for a higher price.

 

I've seen excellent design in so many of the 300+ cars I have owned, there's often an excellent design in each car, but not a full package:

The rechargeable torch in the Favorit

The tough underside and decent ground clearance of a lot of my old cars

The double bed in the Lada Riva, along with the soft rubber ends on the bumpers that "give" and leave a removable black mark

The full size spare, bonnet light, plug in torch and full took kit in the Riva too

The removable seats in the 2CV which all are freestanding, ideal for a picnic

The hammock back seat in the base old Panda which swapped from seat to an ace secure storage spot in seconds

The flip down rear seats in the Sirion/Myvi and 90 degree opening rear doors which mean a cooker can go in the back from the side

The manual driver's mirror and electric nearside mirror of the Berlingo-the one you hit is reachable and cheaper to replace

The integrated child boosters in some Volvos

The family view second mirror in some MPVs

 

I could go on (!)

Give me a strong, basic, endearing car with a decent quality drivetrain and practicality, soft suspension and decent ground clearance; let me service it and bond with it and keep it for years. I don't want huge depreciation or stupid costs.  Oh, and let the seats fold into a bed.

 

I wish Renault group brought in the Lada range to the UK (I know the Niva 4x4 is imported new by one place even now) and take Dacia up a level, the Granta looks decent and costs £3500 for the base model in Russia...check out the ground clearance on that for a non-SUV!!

 

I'm just seeing more tech and less bright ideas, anyone enlighten me of clever stuff and durability of new stuff?

 

What was the best feature of your cars old and new?

I liked the old Skoda and respect the new Skoda but want the rust proofing and reliability without the tech and poshness!

 

Evening all, 

 

What was the best feature of your cars old and new?

 

 

 

Evening Mender - refreshing read 

 

Best features:

 

Having a bench seat in my Renault 16TL

 

Carbs - so much fun to be had cleaning crap out of a Weber and getting it running right, or putting Redex in the dash pot of an SU.  Points, condensers and timing you could twiddle with

 

Walnut picnic tables in the back of my Austin 1300 Van Den Plas front seats

 

Just about everything about a Mk2 Golf 

 

New cars:

 

Heated seats

 

Bendy lights

 

Air con

 

Gaz

A lot of your issues are down to that fact that most people are idiots.

 

So manufacturers build cars that idiots want.

• Idiots want low profile massive wheels with rock hard track suspension on rutted roads.
• Idiots want massive lists of features even if they'll never use 90% of them
• Idiots believe paper mpg figures so buy tiny engines then rag the tits off them complaining their car get 30% of the paper figure.
• Idiots can't actually afford the cars they buy so they buy 'em on pcp and take out loans to swap them every 3yr for another pcp. So they don't care about residual reliability an always have a new shiny car and pots of debt. Idiot, bank, manufacturer and gov happy.

 

Government figures don't care about the environmental impact of building a car only the impact of running the car. So a newer car is always greener.

 

So if you walk into a car showroom and look askew at the salesman thinking he is talking a load of pish you're probably not an idiot. Unfortunately they don't make cars for you now coz you're a minority.

Edited 12 November, 20169 yr by Aspman

Enjoying this thread, welcome back Mender.

 

Just about the only meaningful improvement I find between my 'modern' (2003) Polo and my 25 year old Golf is that it's the first car I've owned that is quiet enough inside to make it worth listening to classical music.

 

Can't begin to imagine spending half a years pay or more on an actual new car, with all the spurious twinkly-lights, facebook-enabled BS that appears to be unavoidable now.

Evening Mender - refreshing read 

 

Best features:

 

Having a bench seat in my Renault 16TL

 

Carbs - so much fun to be had cleaning crap out of a Weber and getting it running right, or putting Redex in the dash pot of an SU.  Points, condensers and timing you could twiddle with

 

Walnut picnic tables in the back of my Austin 1300 Van Den Plas front seats

 

Just about everything about a Mk2 Golf 

 

New cars:

 

Heated seats

 

Bendy lights

 

Air con

 

Gaz

The only bits I do like of modernity are the air-con...and heated seats are nice while they work

 

With you on the tables!!

A lot of your issues are down to that fact that most people are idiots.

 

So manufacturers build cars that idiots want.

• Idiots want low profile massive wheels with rock hard track suspension on rutted roads.
• Idiots want massive lists of features even if they'll never use 90% of them
• Idiots believe paper mpg figures so buy tiny engines then rag the tits off them complaining their car get 30% of the paper figure.
• Idiots can't actually afford the cars they buy so they buy 'em on pcp and take out loans to swap them every 3yr for another pcp. So they don't care about residual reliability an always have a new shiny car and pots of debt. Idiot, bank, manufacturer and gov happy.

 

Government figures don't care about the environmental impact of building a car only the impact of running the car. So a newer car is always greener.

 

So if you walk into a car showroom and look askew at the salesman thinking he is talking a load of pish you're probably not an idiot. Unfortunately they don't make cars for you now coz you're a minority.

Spot on, the idea is to believe the ridiculous mpg figures and believe that a car with a sub-10yr lifespan that supposedly saves 20g/km co2 is greener than not saving the co2 and keeping a car for 20+ years...

 

I drive dozens of cars a month and most owners have no idea what any of the functions do; last week a woman complained bitterly that her new Mondeo radio reception was poor, so I switched on the RDS AF function and pointed out the DAB....

 

Ask 50% of motorists if their car is fwd, rwd or 4wd and they look at you blankly, most people are clueless and terrified of cruise control...!

Enjoying this thread, welcome back Mender.

 

Just about the only meaningful improvement I find between my 'modern' (2003) Polo and my 25 year old Golf is that it's the first car I've owned that is quiet enough inside to make it worth listening to classical music.

 

Can't begin to imagine spending half a years pay or more on an actual new car, with all the spurious twinkly-lights, facebook-enabled BS that appears to be unavoidable now.

Cheers!

 

I think cars reached their optimum point in the late 90s and since then we've just added nonsense and reduced lifespan for the benefit of others, not owners.

 

We can build 100% reliable aircraft, so why not cars?  Why not concentrate on reliability instead of pointless tech?

 

The other point is the tech is distracting and takes away focus; eg the iDrive in BMW and the MMI in Audi, let alone phone screen mirroring and text messaging at the wheel...

 

My own cars have superb Jap engineered engines and total simplicity, but have air-con (except Kelisa) and run quietly, cleanly and reliably.

 

 

On an aside, next time on the motorway, check out the breakdowns...it tends to be very new stuff not old bangers now! Limp-home anyone?  No spare wheel?

Hi Mender and welcome back.  I have to agree with you and your observations.

 

Best feature of my older cars... I could open the bonnet and recognise everything I saw - and fix anything that went wrong.

Best features of my newer cars... Crumple Zones, ABS, ESP and airbags.

 

Incidentally - I hope the Berlingo is now just a distant memory.

I think you need a bottom of the range Dacia, no mod cons on them but not sure how good the electrics are due to Renault ownership.

Hi Mender and welcome back.  I have to agree with you and your observations.

 

Best feature of my older cars... I could open the bonnet and recognise everything I saw - and fix anything that went wrong.

Best features of my newer cars... Crumple Zones, ABS, ESP and airbags.

 

Incidentally - I hope the Berlingo is now just a distant memory.

Haha, spot on with all of that

 

Damned Berlingo was a sad tale, so much effort and cost to make it right then the new owner screwed the newly fitted gearbox, blamed me and got nasty...

 

I want the safety kit, but willing to forgo it if it affects total reliability...

I much prefer older cars. New cars just look **** and have no character or soul. Sure it's nice to have a few creature comforts but I much prefer to drive a car rather than have it drive me.

 

If someone said to me I can only choose one car to keep forever and not change, it'd be this:

 

 

Noise, looks and feeling.

Ask my neighbour about the cost of tech... His 2013 Ford focus DRL (LED) packed up the other day, just out of warranty with sub 20k miles.... Main local Ford dealer - complete headlight replacement, total cost £868.00!

Apparently no serviceable parts..WTF

I think you need a bottom of the range Dacia, no mod cons on them but not sure how good the electrics are due to Renault ownership.

Thanks-makes sense

 

Inspected several times; the base Logan MCV, base Sandero hatch and the Duster Access 2wd (total bargain at £6800 brand new with arch kit, stereo, soft front bar, decal kit and 5 year warranty if bought on finance as a dealer special!)

 

I don't like Renault particularly (from experience!) and found the car of generally poor quality even at £6k and the fact that the only option I value is air-con-and this is only available on all models at Laureate (top) spec and not as a cost option.... The Dacia seems to be a joyless car too which needn't be the case.

 

I know Lada is part of Renault and the Granta looks like the old Logan, but in Russia, the (tough, raised ground clearance) air-con model is sub £4k, not over £8k to get an aircon Dacia model!

Ask my neighbour about the cost of tech... His 2013 Ford focus DRL (LED) packed up the other day, just out of warranty with sub 20k miles.... Main local Ford dealer - complete headlight replacement, total cost £868.00!

Apparently no serviceable parts..WTF

Mate's Audi A3 S-Line had one front bulb out, cost £500+ for Xenon bulb, the controller and fitting and the tech said the other side was on the way out too, another £500++.

 

My whole 23k mile mint Kelisa cost less than one side!!

I'm completely with you. 

 

My car is a 2003, and to be honest, it's right on the line of being "too new" for me, the saving grace is it's a PD, so fairly basic under the bonnet. 

 

I bought an old Inca (Seat mk2 caddy) a few months ago, and it's about one trim level up from being a garden shed. Windy windows, 5 gears, manual heater controls, no turbo, no ABS, no traction control, no immobiliser. Every time I look at it and the car next to each other, and I've got the keys for both, I end up saying "**** it, I'll take the van". 

 

Would I rather be driving a mk2 Polo though? Yes!

I'm completely with you. 

 

My car is a 2003, and to be honest, it's right on the line of being "too new" for me, the saving grace is it's a PD, so fairly basic under the bonnet. 

 

I bought an old Inca (Seat mk2 caddy) a few months ago, and it's about one trim level up from being a garden shed. Windy windows, 5 gears, manual heater controls, no turbo, no ABS, no traction control, no immobiliser. Every time I look at it and the car next to each other, and I've got the keys for both, I end up saying "**** it, I'll take the van". 

 

Would I rather be driving a mk2 Polo though? Yes!

Much the same, we've sold our newer cars and run a 2007 Perodua Myvi, 2005 Perodua Kelisa (google if unfamiliar!) and a 1999 Daihatsu Sirion.

 

As part of running a bodyshop, I have to drive loads of different cars; this week a 2015 Mondeo Titanium, 2012 Audi A5 convertible, 2011 BMW 520d and so on and although the heated seats are jolly nice, the overall drive underwhelms me totally and the fear of huge unexpected repair costs scares me.

 

I get back into my Kelisa and rejoice in its simplicity, honesty and direct driving manners.

I think the crux is......that I talk to it; I relate to it.

I agree, and im the same... I have mates that are financed up to the eye ball so they can always drive the latest "sports" BMW / VW, and when a repair is needed we dont see them for a month due to the fact they are skint. 

 

But i dont understand what the issue is with just finding a decent mk1 octavia or fabia, scout ... no table/ rechargeable torch or rear bed tho lol..

 

I must admit i have been wanting a newer car, just to try and get something i can rely on for the next 5-7 years, but i also am struggling to better what i have with out all the un necessary electrics that will break, as im convinced new cars are designed to fail, drumming up business. 

I agree, and im the same... I have mates that are financed up to the eye ball so they can always drive the latest "sports" BMW / VW, and when a repair is needed we dont see them for a month due to the fact they are skint. 

 

But i dont understand what the issue is with just finding a decent mk1 octavia or fabia, scout ... no table/ rechargeable torch or rear bed tho lol..

 

I must admit i have been wanting a newer car, just to try and get something i can rely on for the next 5-7 years, but i also am struggling to better what i have with out all the un necessary electrics that will break, as im convinced new cars are designed to fail, drumming up business. 

The mk1 Fabia vRS is a stunning cult classic, nothing Skoda has built since has appealed to me more....I'd keep it

 

Just keep them seats clean!!

I agree, and im the same... I have mates that are financed up to the eye ball so they can always drive the latest "sports" BMW / VW, and when a repair is needed we dont see them for a month due to the fact they are skint. 

 

But i dont understand what the issue is with just finding a decent mk1 octavia or fabia, scout ... no table/ rechargeable torch or rear bed tho lol..

 

I must admit i have been wanting a newer car, just to try and get something i can rely on for the next 5-7 years, but i also am struggling to better what i have with out all the un necessary electrics that will break, as im convinced new cars are designed to fail, drumming up business. 

 

I think they're more like washing machines, built to last the warranty/finance period, then you're on your own.

 

I was a trade plater a few years ago and I got to drive pretty much everything, and most of it, even the "interesting" stuff was a complete snore-fest, I used to look forward to the transit vans. 

I like older cars, and the Classic family fleet has a couple of older examples which I can maintain myself. But I disagree that new cars are boring or that the electrics are a time-bomb waiting to happen.

The majority of faults on sub 10 year old cars are mechanical, eg dual mass flywheels, turbos, timing belts/chains, DPF's etc etc

We have a 2003 fabia and a 2001 Astra neither of which have had any electrical problems that weren't simple to fix - Astra needed a new lambda probe at 120k miles and the Fabia needed alternator wiring repairing and a split vacuum hose caused the eml to come on.

The modern car I drive every day is awesome, it is reliable, has good performance whilst still returning 50+ mpg. I get in and the radio immediately syncs to my phone for music/hands free, the auto climate control demists it quickly if required, then regulates the cabin temp without any interference from me, heated seats, cruise control, sat nav, 12v sockets, multiple airbags, steering wheel controls, good seats, massive boot and nice to drive. Would I swap it for a basic no frills Lada/Dacia type thing ? - absolutely not. Is it boring ? - No. Is Auto Express boring ? Yes, but not because of the cars, they are better than ever.

Edited 13 November, 20169 yr by classic

Maybe we need new 'old' cars.

I like older cars, and the Classic family fleet has a couple of older examples which I can maintain myself. But I disagree that new cars are boring or that the electrics are a time-bomb waiting to happen.

The majority of faults on sub 10 year old cars are mechanical, eg dual mass flywheels, turbos, timing belts/chains, DPF's etc etc

We have a 2003 fabia and a 2001 Astra neither of which have had any electrical problems that weren't simple to fix - Astra needed a new lambda probe at 120k miles and the Fabia needed alternator wiring repairing and a split vacuum hose caused the eml to come on.

The modern car I drive every day is awesome, it is reliable, has good performance whilst still returning 50+ mpg. I get in and the radio immediately syncs to my phone for music/hands free, the auto climate control demists it quickly if required, then regulates the cabin temp without any interference from me, heated seats, cruise control, sat nav, 12v sockets, multiple airbags, steering wheel controls, good seats, massive boot and nice to drive. Would I swap it for a basic no frills Lada/Dacia type thing ? - absolutely not. Is it boring ? - No. Is Auto Express boring ? Yes, but not because of the cars, they are better than ever.

We may be talking different eras...I think that somewhere roughly around 2000 the actual cars reached a high spot of technology, reliability and durability-as you say with your Astra and Fabia.

Since then we have added more complications to reduce g/km emissions, many of which will affect longevity, such as the turbo/supercharging of tiny capacity engines, stop/start and so on.  In addition, we have since added huge amounts of tech such as touchscreens and media tech which may not last as long as the car itself could, either by breaking and being expensive to fix or by becoming out of date and incompatible with next gen kit.

 

With the crazy unreliable mpg tests, we are losing kit like spare wheels to save a minute amount of emissions, but this is not improving the car!

 

I drive all sorts of cars, week in, week out and usually find many cars out of warranty have faults on the dash or niggles that would not have been a problem even 15 years ago; especially climate control panels and daft oddities like false TPM readings or all the airbags being offline due to a tiny fault in one of the multi-airbags (is it not better to have two working than all seven off due to a fault?!).

This is the point, but you are driving a new new car under warranty and may not own it out of warranty and experience the faults it will have as it ages, but your older cars were simpler than your current one.  How will that fare in 15 years and 120k miles?  I guess that with more complexity that more will go wrong and a point will come where the repair cost is not worth it; probably sooner than older cars due to parts prices.

 

I appreciate the convenience of all the bits, as you say, but as a long term used ownership proposal the liability of it all scares me.

 

What I appreciate is a fundamentally good car, not propped up by tech to make it work and not a headache when it ages!

All the new features seem to be electronic, not practical; we are only advancing one way (apart from zip-off washable seat covers on the Captur!) and although convenience is handy, it does not excite me-I'd rather have a car which coped with the odd by-road without falling to bits, one which folded into a bed, one which had good strong physical design.

 

I don't ever want a leaking, slow, unreliable classic car, never, ever, ever-I wanted the designers to accept what was perfected such as 60mpg chain driven engines with 300,000m capability and improve something else like practicality, not get 61mpg by reducing cc and adding turbo and superchargers, stop/start, DPFs, but reducing longevity....

 

I want quality, rust-proofing, good engineering, good design and simple engineering that works (see throttle cable, above)-we have seen it can be done, but we are ever going into more tech and more complexity to little benefit other than convenience, to the detriment of longevity.

 

I like climate control and other bits, but would rather have working ventilation than a failed climate unit that needed replacing complete at £700!

Much the same with stop/start; save maybe £50 fuel pa, but the battery and starter will cost way more than that over the years...and why the need for DMFs??

 

With the new tax laws coming in March 2017 where all newly registered cars will pay £140pa tax after the first year (first year varies on g/km and first 5 years get expensive if value over 40k), this race to reduce g/km will have been mostly pointless....

 

The other point is relating to the car; I don't relate to a mobile pc in the way I relate to an oiled machine, maybe that's just me and unnecessary tech that does not improve things such as DMFs, electric handbrakes etc, but gives a possibility of a large bill is not something I want

Edited 13 November, 20169 yr by mender

Maybe we need new 'old' cars.

You can still buy a Suzuki Jimny new in showrooms today, launched back in 1998, or import a Lada Niva, launched in 1977!

 

Any others since we lost the Morgan Plus8 and the Defender?

I've always gone for low spec in the past for the reasons you state. The Fabia has wind up windows, no aircon or central locking which at 13 years old might well go wrong no matter how well I've cared for it.

I chose my current daily driver car, a Toyota Hybrid, as the technology is proven as reliable and is actually mechanically simple. No clutch, no turbo, low stressed engine, no timing belt or any belt driven ancillaries. In 10 years time it will have done 200k miles and at that point will owe me nothing.

Car Mechanics Magazine have just got a 160k miles 2005 Prius for £1500 as a project car, I think as mechanics get used to the tech of modern cars we'll be less afraid to repair it

Edited 13 November, 20169 yr by classic

Valid points in the OP but it has to be said it is exactly what my Dad says.

 

And no doubt something I'll say to my kids when I'm his age.

 

It's difficult for people to embrace change, not many people like leaving their comfort zones. We all have fond memories about our early driving days and the cars we were driving.

 

New cars aren't without their faults but lets face it as a general rule they are demonstrably better than the cars they replaced.

 

Luckily cars that will appeal are still out there, and for the large part are cheap too. Buy a modern car for the day-to-day stuff where reliability is key, then buy a childhood memory car for the weekend to tinker with.