Emissions software update

[johnny cabbage head]

Taking my recently aquired superb in to have a spare key coded in at main agents tomorrow, the service dept said between half hour and up to two hours to do it?? Just wondering if they have checked my vehicle details and are intending to carry out the emissions remap at the same time - nothing mentioned but the time frame seems very long for just a spare key being coded in.??

I presume they will have to ask me first if I wanted it done ...which in fact I will decline as imn my opinion the only way to make the emissions lower is by lowering the fuel to air ratio which means a loss of power, this being the 1.6crd greenline 3 ...I dont want it to lose any power for obvious reasons.

Anyone else had this thrust upon them at their dealers whilst booking in for something else ?

Anyone else had their greenline 3 remapped by agents for emissions ?

Thaks in advance

[Ootohere]

Where have you been informed by the VW Group that the Fix is to lower emissions on the road?

 Is that something they put in writing?

 

It is to remove the Defeat Device from the Engine Management is it not?

[Breezy_Pete]

Where have you been informed by the VW Group that the Fix is to lower emissions on the road?

 Is that something they put in writing?

 

It is to remove the Defeat Device from the Engine Management is it not?

 

By definition, removing a defeat device will improve emissions. 

It seems very hard for people to understand this, but the cheat isn't to have a car that has a software mode that passes type testing (that's a requirement), the cheat is to have a separate, different programme mode that takes over when conditions aren't like those of the test.

Removing the cheat means to have software that doesn't detect the test/not-test and change modes, it must therefore be - at all times, or most - more like the 'good behaviour mode' that the old software used when the test was happening. So better with respect to NOx emissions on the road, but probably very similar to how it was previously under test.

 

Simples?

Edited 27 November, 2016 by Wino

[johnny cabbage head]

Where have you been informed by the VW Group that the Fix is to lower emissions on the road?

 Is that something they put in writing?

 

It is to remove the Defeat Device from the Engine Management is it not?

And what does the defeat device actually do in terms of emissions, maybe you are more informed than I am, thanks in advance

[Breezy_Pete]

Just get it in writing from them that they won't do the emissions update, before you leave the car with them.

[johnny cabbage head]

Just get it in writing from them that they won't do the emissions update, before you leave the car with them.

thanks , thats what I intend to do. If the emissions are improved then in my humble opinion it has to be to the detriment of performance, unless somebody can convince me otherwise Thanks for your replies chaps.

[Ootohere]

Definition is all good and well, but the Volkswagen Group are not defining anything.

 

Not even showing that a vehicle with the Defeat Device removed can replicate the EU Test results as the vehicle was given the scores on the doors, 

obviously they can because the German Regulatory Authority Approved the Fixes, after 'Independent' testing because the first approvals for the Fix were questioned.

 

As far as EU testing, thats what it is, and in no way related to real world driving unless you drive in a temperature controlled building on a rolling road to the programme that 

the car is driven under.

http://skoda.co.uk/pages/fuel-consumption-statement.aspx

That is just something that is a technicality to European Manufacturers and those around the world, they all know how to get the results they need to submit.

 

As it is many cars could do with servicing and maintenance and a Engine Management / Software update and might run more efficiently anyway.

'Whats the worst that can happen?'. 

VW would never leave owners / drivers worse off would they?   Well actually sometime Software Updates done at Servicing does, but forget that.

[D-Cunningham]

Like some who have contributed to this discussion on this link and others, I am not an expert. That's why I get my car serviced by someone who is. However, I can read accounts on places like the Honest John site about drivers of VW cars with the same engine as my Superb. Enough of them have reported that their cars have been damaged by the software update, which persuades me that I should turn down Skoda's invitation to have my car's software updated. I believe that this update has no connection to my car's ability to pass existing emissions standards at MOT. It flew through its MOT last week without any problems and I expect it to continue doing that. I'm no hot blooded renegade refusenik. I just think that if my car is going well without the software update and is judged fit for the road by the MOT garage, I'd rather stick with the very nicely performing car that I've got and take no chances with a potentially damaging 'update' from my local Skoda franchised dealer. Others can do what they think is best for them but, if it aint broke ................

[kevberlin]

Like some who have contributed to this discussion on this link and others, I am not an expert. That's why I get my car serviced by someone who is. However, I can read accounts on places like the Honest John site about drivers of VW cars with the same engine as my Superb. Enough of them have reported that their cars have been damaged by the software update, which persuades me that I should turn down Skoda's invitation to have my car's software updated. I believe that this update has no connection to my car's ability to pass existing emissions standards at MOT. It flew through its MOT last week without any problems and I expect it to continue doing that. I'm no hot blooded renegade refusenik. I just think that if my car is going well without the software update and is judged fit for the road by the MOT garage, I'd rather stick with the very nicely performing car that I've got and take no chances with a potentially damaging 'update' from my local Skoda franchised dealer. Others can do what they think is best for them but, if it aint broke ................

That point of view is just too darn logical. Nicely expounded.

[chimaera]

Where have you been informed by the VW Group that the Fix is to lower emissions on the road?

 Is that something they put in writing?

 

It is to remove the Defeat Device from the Engine Management is it not?

 

The defeat device is allowing the car to emit higher emissions in normal driving than are permitted by law. It detects that the car is undergoing the test cycle and switches to a compliant mode that reduces NOx emissions and allows the car to pass type approval. It is likely based on how long it has taken them to develop a fix, that the original compliant mode carried a performance penalty with it.

 

The obligation on VAG is to make the cars compliant with the Euro 5 emissions regulations. Whatever your opinion of the standard testing cycle, any reduction in emissions in that cycle will lower emissions on the road also.

 

Simply removing the defeat device would leave you with a compliant car, but one that likely no longer meets the performance it was advertised as having, either on power, economy or both. At the very least this would create crank customers, and possibly leave VAG open to accusations of fraud.

[TheRobinK]

... Just wondering if they have checked my vehicle details and are intending to carry out the emissions remap at the same time ....

 

I don't think you have to worry about them doing your 1.6 diesel this time- AFAIK, the they havent rolled out the update for our engine yet.

 

Don't wait for them to ask if you want it done though - they will do it without asking. You need to proactively tell them "No". They treat this as a service action for which permission is not required - you give permission when you sign that form that releases then car to them when you leave it for service and/or repairs.

 

The last report on the 1.6 I heard in Ireland was for a start in late October/early November. Well, its November 27th and I've heard nothing else....

[James@RRG_Skoda_Rochdale]

The software update hasn't been released for the 1.6cr engine yet and when it is it will require the fitment of additional hardware to allow for a more efficient combustion cycle and improved egr operation.

When it is released you will be given the choice as to whether you undergo the update or not. You are in no way obliged to do so, no one is holding a gun to your head and the emission that it effects NOx is not measured on MOT.

What makes me laugh is the honest John quotes I see that appear to be blowing this issue right out of the water and putting people off having the update done.

They have had 8 yes that's 8 reports of engines having increased noise levels between a certain rpm on 140bhp Volkswagen Tiguans with the DSG gearbox fitted. Fair enough but that's 8 out of a probable 10,000/20,000 vehicles that are actually affected. My mums is one of them and has had no adverse effects what so ever.

We are currently doing around 15 a week now that it's live on the superb, Octavia and Yeti.

One that sticks with me is our local Bosch/beissbarth engineer who I spoke to pre and post software update then 3 months after, he claims he's noticed no difference and actually experienced a small fuel economy increase.

I suppose a lot of people are just looking to justify not having it done for their own piece of mind by using the (very few) examples that exist on the internet and as we all know - if you look for bad experiences and negative opinions on the internet: YOU WILL FIND THEM.

[Ootohere]

So where you are working is getting around 15 a week done.

 

There are many more VW Dealerships than Skoda ones, and lots more Tiguans to get the 'Fix;,  

I wonder how many have been done & is the number 8 just those reported on Honest John a Site that often gets things wrong as proven over the years,

Or is this some numbers that the VW Group say are the only ones reporting issues?

 

As it is the VW Group has plenty of Vehicles and Lease Plenty Fleet Vehicles so any doubts should be easily put aside as the VW Group will be able to show 

the Before & After results of Hundred of Vehicles run by them, and even UK Government Departments.

Oddly there is little coming from the VW Group in the way of showing any testing results.

Not just anecdotal evidence and Online stories from customers and employees.

 

Bosch are under investigation are they not as the provider of the defeat device.

Obviously an Engineer in the UK is not involved directly, 

but then Turkeys might not be expected to vote for Christmas. ... Doh, thats the wrong way around.

 

Lots seem to mention a Bosch Engineer they know, but then i suppose there are a few and a few techs that know the same one or others.

 

PS

chimaera, 

That will be the VW Group leaving their self open to even more accusations of fraud obviously, as they admitted so far the fraud they are paying fines for in the US, and then their is the still being investigated potential fraud with the Petrol Audi's and then the previous frauds that VW have been in court over years ago. Then there were the Take Over cases.

As honest as the day is long are the Volkswagen Group. Never knowingly telling a lie or researching cheats until caught.

Pay the fines and make good the Taxes & Duties lost, just not in Germany because the Government let sleeping dogs lie.

 

Then the Co2 Irregularities last year at this time now called Implausible Co2 was just Testing and Reporting failures that resulted in 

new VED Classes for some vehicles, some Buy Backs and some VW Group Euro 6 Vehicle Engine Gearbox combination vehicles 

not being available as new models were launched.  ie Seat Ateca 2.0 TD 150ps Manual Front Wheel Drive.

Edited 28 November, 2016 by Offski

[johnny cabbage head]

The software update hasn't been released for the 1.6cr engine yet and when it is it will require the fitment of additional hardware to allow for a more efficient combustion cycle and improved egr operation.

When it is released you will be given the choice as to whether you undergo the update or not. You are in no way obliged to do so, no one is holding a gun to your head and the emission that it effects NOx is not measured on MOT.

What makes me laugh is the honest John quotes I see that appear to be blowing this issue right out of the water and putting people off having the update done.

They have had 8 yes that's 8 reports of engines having increased noise levels between a certain rpm on 140bhp Volkswagen Tiguans with the DSG gearbox fitted. Fair enough but that's 8 out of a probable 10,000/20,000 vehicles that are actually affected. My mums is one of them and has had no adverse effects what so ever.

We are currently doing around 15 a week now that it's live on the superb, Octavia and Yeti.

One that sticks with me is our local Bosch/beissbarth engineer who I spoke to pre and post software update then 3 months after, he claims he's noticed no difference and actually experienced a small fuel economy increase.

I suppose a lot of people are just looking to justify not having it done for their own piece of mind by using the (very few) examples that exist on the internet and as we all know - if you look for bad experiences and negative opinions on the internet: YOU WILL FIND THEM.

Thanks James, will enquire when I take my car into skoda Garage later ,just out of curiosity.

[chimaera]

PS

chimaera, 

That will be the VW Group leaving their self open to even more accusations of fraud obviously, as they admitted so far the fraud they are paying fines for in the US, and then their is the still being investigated potential fraud with the Petrol Audi's and then the previous frauds that VW have been in court over years ago. Then there were the Take Over cases.

As honest as the day is long are the Volkswagen Group. Never knowingly telling a lie or researching cheats until caught.

Pay the fines and make good the Taxes & Duties lost, just not in Germany because the Government let sleeping dogs lie.

 

The US situation is quite different to the EU one. The US emissions limits are much stricter and the test more onerous than what Euro 5 allows. It is looking impossible for non-DEF equipped cars to be brought in line with US standards without adversely impacting on performance. This would be effectively fraud since the product does not match the specification it was sold with.

 

That repairable cars (DEF-equipped ones) are being included in the buyback/compensation package is likely to prevent finger pointing from disgruntled owners, and probably also to stave off any further legal action.

[Ootohere]

We know, we have followed things.

 

Buy back happened in the UK & EU with the Co2 Irregularities / Implausible Co2 just this year.

Not received much publicity obviously, as the VW Group spend as much on Media Spin & Lawyers as they do on the 'Fix;.