After taking the car into the main dealer for inspection/diagnosis of gearbox noises (Whine/rumble in neutral with engine running and car stationary; initially whine when moving in gears 1 & 2' which has now spread to gears 3 and 4), I've been told that there's metal in the gearbox oil and that the best option is to go for a replacement gearbox.

 

Obviously, the main dealer's quote for sourcing and fitting a re-manufactured box and clutch, which I'm told comes with a two year warranty, is pretty horrendous (Just over £ 2,600 inc VAT).

 

As the car is now 14 years old and got 60,000 miles on the clock,  that's a pretty hefty investment to make for something I only intended to keep for the next 3-4 years, expecting to do 2-3,500 miles  year. So- I've obtained quotes from on-line re-manufacturers.

 

Quite honestly, they look very attractive,  offering a fully re-manufactured and tested box, with one year warranty, which together with a replacement clutch and fitting  (By an independent) and fluids comes in, at the most expensive, iro £1,000 inc VAT..

 

Apparently, they can deliver the replacement box to virtually anyone for fitting.

 

Anybody got experience of  this type of supply ?

Does it work ?

 

Do they last a reasonable time, trouble-free ?

 

 

Nick

Edited 13 January, 20179 yr by Clunkclick

Hey clunk click. I'd get a second opinion before parting with any of your hard earned. I'm not saying its exactly the same symptoms as mine but I have a nasty rumbling that comes and goes in neutral, which disappears when I put the clutch in. Sounds like a dwarf with a hammer in the gearbox !!!  I had it checked out by a VAG mechanic whom I trust and it turns out it is my dmf which is coming toward the end of its lifespan. Like I say, your car sounds similar to mine but may be another issue. Mine is a VRS by the way. Not sure if you even have a DMF on yours as you haven't stated what model it is.

As Valvedoctor has said I'd definitely put some thought before parting that sort of money. I got a good price for a rebuilt and strengthened box with a diff for not a lot more than that, again model VRS, so there better deals around.

Its 1.4 16v  100BHP petrol, BBZ, circa 2003, I don't think it has a DMF - aren't they something only used on the high compression diesels only ?  I'll check the Haynes manual.

 

I spoke on the telephone yesterday  to the MD's master mechanic and he says that the noise seems to be coming from the gearbox. And this morning the service agent told be that an inspection of the gearbox oil (After I requested it) showed metallic particles.

 

My reading of the advice on the internet is that  the noise in neutral is probably caused by a worn input shaft bearing (The seal has been leaking on and off since 30,000 and ever since I got the MD to replace the gearbox oil 2 years ago, when you get out of the car after a trip, all you can smell is hot transmission fluid) and that the whine in drive, which is present on the overrun, is probably a worn differential pinnion. Funny it was all OK until 6 months after they changed the oil.

 

The reason I took it into the MD was because the noise had started to increase and I the transmission oil smell had started to subside, suggesting the oil level inside the gearbox had fallen below the lowest part of the input shaft seal.

 

I suppose most MDs don't want to know this sort of work, they'd  rather sell you a new car, hence the silly prices - e.g. £295 for Clutch kit (Pressure plate, friction plate and releasebearing) which you can get from Europarts for anything from £100-130+VAT. But that's the name of the franchised dealership game.

 

I've have been told that some of the suppliers of these re-manufactured boxes may well supply the main dealers, but do so through an intermediary, so everybody is on the gravy train taking a cut. The re-manufactuers offer a one year warranty as an industry standard,  so you begin to wonder whether, even going to a MD means that in actuality you're getting a box re-manufactured to a one year standard and are just paying extra for a warranty extension, to two years ,organised by Skoda (I asked an indy re-manufacturer and they weren't prepared to offer a two year warranty) + Skoda MD labour rates (About 1/3 more than indy's).

 

Quite honestly, I could do without a car most of the time, as it only gets used max twice a week and the rest of the time it sits in the residential car park, at best, providing a lean-to infrastructure facility for the ladies of the  night. Much more economical, just to hire when long journeys and  holiday time comes along.

 

Decisions, decisions.

 

Nick

Edited 13 January, 20179 yr by Clunkclick

I'd be tempted to find a used gearbox that is good and get that swapped into the car considering the low use and, let's face it, not very high value of a 13 y/o skoda fabia. Then I would also keep the original box if you have the storage and look at getting it refurbished separately if the other box starts to make any noises further down the line. Just my £0.02

Just 1.8T it... Haha.

As above if it is a gearbox issue then it might be best to source a second hand one, maybe from a seller that will include some warranty with it.

I'd be tempted to find a used gearbox that is good and get that swapped into the car considering the low use and, let's face it, not very high value of a 13 y/o skoda fabia. Then I would also keep the original box if you have the storage and look at getting it refurbished separately if the other box starts to make any noises further down the line. Just my £0.02

Not a bad idea if its mates rates one with known provenance and condition. Otherwise, it would be random.

 

Given that the re-manufactured boxes offer a 1 year warranty (explicitly or implicity meaning 12,000 miles) and the consensus being that you'll know within a month of first use whether or not you've got a duff box, even though I presume I'd have to surrender my existing box to the re-manufacturer, as part of the "Price", if I went down that route, one re-manufactured to 12,000 mile standard would do 4-5 years for me.

 

Wonder if the re-manufacturer's warranty applies if it is delivered to a main dealer ? Then again, if the MD is part of the same supply chain and its regulated by a contract between Skoda GB and the re-manufacturer, then perhaps they are prohibited under their franchise from short-circuiting the deal.

 

The other thing is that paying out nearly £3,000 is equivalent to a one-third deposit on the special offer Fabia that was showing on the UK web site they other day for £9,999 - that deal, available to 27/01/2017, has now disappeared of the web site. Probably a fiddle anyway on the OTR price under one of these lease-purchase schemes.

 

N

Edited 13 January, 20179 yr by Clunkclick

Def a used one. Try 1st choice spares? Some offer a short warranty with them.

Taking it to independent VAG specialist for a second opinion and quote.

Keep us updated clunkclick. It will be interesting to see what the VAG specialist thinks.

Took it down there yesterday.

 

Owner/mechanic drove it and confirmed that the bearings are going, as the main dealer said, if left unaddressed,  these could give out at any time.

 

Sounds to me also as if the pinnion on the differential is on the way out, but he wouldn't commit to that.

 

Probably, all caused by the wretched input shaft seal leak (Which wasn't identified formally by the MD till year 10, when I insisted that they inspect for a leak)  + the wretched VAG policy BS of "Sealed-for-Life" gearboxes (Targetted at the fleet users)  and main dealers compliance with it - the last car I had, VW Golf Mk1, I changed the gearbox oil every 4 years, and it went on to 75,000 perfectly OK.

 

I think its a good idea to get the clutch done, because the car's done 62,500 miles approx and the clutch has never been right from new - always had a very high bite point. Additionally, the MD's service agent iindicated that a faulty clutch could induce a further gearbox failure. (But that could justy have been sales talk).

 

it is in there today for Gearbox re-conditioning (Gets sent away to a local bod) and I've asked for a new clutch and the timing belts and water pump to be done (They're over due by about three years - in fact I don't think the water pump was done in 2009)).

 

Needless to say the quote is substantially less than the main dealers and more financially manageable as far as I'm concerned.  I'm told the  work comes with the garage's own one year warranty. I'm told that it gets all new parts. 

 

Hopefully, if the  gearbox work is completed to a 12,000 mile standard, it should do me for the next 3-4 years.

 

When its all done and dusted I'll be able to quote some comparatives.

 

 

N

Edited 17 January, 20179 yr by Clunkclick

Yipes, you have been playing Russian Roulette with that engine!  Cambelts etc are no believers in low milage/low time.

Yipes, you have been playing Russian Roulette with that engine!  Cambelts etc are no believers in low milage/low time.

 

Nah, 1.4 16V is easy on belts, there are two belts for starters and it has roller rockers and mild springs, it's only contamination that's a worry and the oil seals seem reliable as well, there's a lot of nonsense talked about cam belts, I don't recall a single thread on here about smashed valves on a 1.4 16V due to cambelt failure, not one.

Tend to agree.

 

If it was a V - engined petrol, with more vibration and torque or a torque happy VRS diesel then I'd say change at the prescribed interval, because on take-up of power or rapid decleration, the belt undergoes more stress going from the "Untensioned" state to fully tensioned (And vicky verky) and I would imagine that the repeated cycling of that effect would, over-time,  give rise to a shear failure - a bit like metal fatigue.

 

Also, to be considered, is the whether the belts run un-protected in the open air with no plastic cover. In which case up-flung detritus from the road and flung-off fluids form the engine may impact adversely on it.

 

Also, worthy of consideration is whether you're regulary doing high speed runs - that said, the technicians say that its the heat-up cool down cycle that does the most damage. So that even though manufacturers like Continental used to specify a 120,000 mile limit on their website, VAG adopted 4-5 years beteen changes.

 

IMHO, It has to be decided on a car by car basis:-

 

Taking my experience, Alfa-Sud, flat-four, 1.2, cam-belts ran in the open at the front, bottom-side of engine, previous owner had driven the car at the seaside (Suspect beach), so, higher torque from flat four + low mounted and unprotected belts + suspect use in a salty environment = change belts at 30,000 i.e. immeditely I purchased the car, even though the belts that were taken off looked good, although fraying was starting on the tooth side - probably as a result of being run through salt beach water by the previous owner.

 

On the other side of the coin, I had a straight-4 Mk 1 VW Golf 1.1 OHV serviced by me from year 2 to 17,  where the cam belt was covered,  low-torque engine, covered belts, no extraordinary environmental hazards encountered, serviced by me - the car went to the scrappies @ 17 years, 75,000 miles with the original belt on - IMHO this belt could probably have gone on to the technical limit that used to be specified on the Continentall site 120,000.

 

So, the Fabia 1.4 16v (100HP) DOHC, is an in betweeny. Moderate torque, belts uncovered going low-high on offside of engine, not extra ordinary environmental use, occasional long high speed runs. 

 

Hopefully, the change of belts I requested will see my ownership period out.

 

 

 

Nick

Edited 18 January, 20179 yr by Clunkclick

Uncovered cambelt(s) on 1.4/16v? Sure you're not thinking of the aux belt?

Also OHV means pushrod and the VW 1.1 was definitely OHC.

It's a bit late and it's just my opinion but I'm not sure I would have went down the route you have taken.

It sounds like you're spending more to repair the car than it's worth! Unless you got a really good deal. It's called BER - beyond economical repair.

Obviously I don't know your financial situation and it may be have been the only option, rather than getting rid of it and buying something else. But at the end of the day it's a 14 year old Fabia and not worth spending over £1k on keeping it on the road. It'll probably need more work in the future.

Mine is over 10 yrs old now and has 115k miles on the clock, so I'd be in a similar situation and wouldn't want to spend more than £500 on a major repair.

As I said, just my opinion and good luck with the fix. Hope you gets it all sorted.

Opportunity cost:

 

1. Buying a second hand replacement, is, IMHO, buying someone else's undisclosed problems £££££££. And to  do that just for the next 5 years, after which you buy new. Decent second hand Fabia (Being 6 foot I couldn't fit into anything smaller) has got to be £5,000, probably a 5-6  year old vehicle. So, that would meaning I would have to migrate to a Fab Mk2, would be  buying an unknown quantity in terms of  fault knowledge of the new mark and would be depreciating at least £4,000 0f purchase value over the next 5 years + any repairs (Conservatively, lets say £1,000). Cost of motoring for next 5 years under this option = £5,000 + running costs.

 

2, Repair Current car, most the faults are known to me and have already been addressed/or are on the list to be done. Current market value is sub £1,000, so depreciation is next to nothing. Body work good for another 10 years. Possible bills over next 5 years, £1,200 (Engine top-end), + £1570 already paid for gearbox + £500 (Track rod ends + ARB (Again)  + the odd Wheel bearings) +  £1,000 Depreciation = £4,270 + running costs.

 

3.  New car, out of the question at the moment.

 

 

Anyway, got it back today from the Indy VAG specialist. Gearbox rebuilt/conditioned, new clutch, timing belts and water pump replaced. All in £1570 inc VAT (rounded) + 12 month warranty (12,000 miles equivalent) - should do me with my annual mileage of 2,000-3,000 for next 4 years.

 

From what I was told , bearings, gaskets, seals would have been replaced new, and anything else only replaced if it looks bad/outside tolerance.

 

Gearbox bearing noise has gone. Change is smooth. 

 

And, the clutch is soooo much  better.

 

The drive now feeds in smoothly and progressively over the whole range of the  clutch pedal movement - The original part didn't feed in drive until the clutch pedal was at the end of its travel. Something which was never commented upon during 13 years of servicing at the main dealers ! 

 

See how it goes.

 

Main dealer rang me up last night (About the first time ever) to remind me of the imminence of the next annual service and their current pricing regime. (Don't think I'll be letting them anywhere near the car whilst the rebuilt gearbox is in warranty)

 

Took it for a 40 mile round-trip PM with one 1 hour stop-off half-way,   mixed urban, motorway and country road, top speed limited to 60 M.P.H. in top (3,000 Rpm) and light acceleration only.  Totally fine.  I was told to keep a watch on the coolant level, following the pump change - all looks fine.

 

I'll follow this  mild run-in regime for the next  1,000 - 1,200.

 

Now the gearbox noise is gone, all I can hear now is possible wheel bearing noise + occasional offside front clunks (ARB  again ?).

 

Next job is to sort out slight vibration on the steering wheel and slight lack of precision on the steering (Track Rods & ARB) + the cabin heat issue and electrical drain. Hope to get that done at the annual service late Feb early March.

 

Nick

 

 

 

 

You don't need to run anything in, just drive it normally.

 

Running-in is one of the biggest myths in the motor trade, to correctly run-in piston rings requires hard acceleration and deceleration and no constant speed or labouring. Valvetrain on solid lifter engines needs ~20 mins at about 2000 rpm.

Nothing else needs running-in. Seriously.

I don't know on that one.

 

My normal is usually batting along the motorway at the speed at which the engine settles down to <Cough>.

 

My reasoning behind a "running-in" period, was that where you've got a combination of new and pre-worn components (Some of which may be near the manufacturers tolerance, but on the healthy side) the "Accomodating" wear rate may be greater than that on  a new engine/gearbox.  Greater wear rate = more heat ? More heat = more wear. Initially, until its all bedded in. 

 

I do n't know if they replaced any of the gear cogs, given that the MD reported particles in the 2 year old oil, if they haven't been replaced, best take it easy. I would imagine that visible metal particles in a gearbox come from two or three main sources, mis-meshing gear cogwheels, disintegrating bearing races and shafts with too much end-float bashing into the casing. The only thing I know for certain is that the bearings were gone, but that doesn't mean to say that the cog-wheels or the shaft-ends/casing weren't also damaged but adjudged within tolerance/not likely to detiriorate further aqd therefore left in place.

 

Best to take it easy - doesn't the Fab handbook advocate this for new cars. Something along the lines, "No more than 2/3 oif max revs in any gear for first 1,500 miles ?".

 

Nick

Edited 25 January, 20179 yr by Clunkclick

41 minutes ago, Clunkclick said:

I don't know on that one.

 

Best to take it easy - doesn't the Fab handbook advocate this for new cars. Something along the lines, "No more than 2/3 oif max revs in any gear for first 1,500 miles ?".

 

I do.

 

It does, and it's rubbish, it's for the driver, not the car.

 

No gears or shafts will have been replaced, only bearings, bushes, seals and synchro rings (i.e. parts that wear out).

Glad you got it sorted. 

 

I know I've said it before, but now looking at your costs, I still can't believe you've spent one and a half times what the car is worth to keep it on the road. And now your saying you've still to sort track rods, arb's, heating issues and electrical issues! 

 

If if you add up the cost of the repair/maintenance there + your expected costs over the next 4 years and divide it by 4 years of payments, you could have leased a brand new car for close to that amount. Or got one on PCP/PCH. 

 

I'm honestly not saying this to be nasty. Just so that if someone else reads this topic and is in the same position, it gives them another point of view and options. 

 

Good luck with the car, hope it serves you well.

2 hours ago, del-gti said:

Glad you got it sorted. 

 

I know I've said it before, but now looking at your costs, I still can't believe you've spent one and a half times what the car is worth to keep it on the road. And now your saying you've still to sort track rods, arb's, heating issues and electrical issues! 

 

If if you add up the cost of the repair/maintenance there + your expected costs over the next 4 years and divide it by 4 years of payments, you could have leased a brand new car for close to that amount. Or got one on PCP/PCH. 

 

I'm honestly not saying this to be nasty. Just so that if someone else reads this topic and is in the same position, it gives them another point of view and options. 

 

Good luck with the car, hope it serves you well.

 

I'm with Nick on this, better the devil you know, secondhand cars are such a lottery that once you've worked through all the foibles of a particular model it's way easier to stick with it than twist and have to jump right back on that expensive learning curve with a different one.

 

A cars value is in its function as a mode of transport, not as a depreciating financial instrument or a statement of status. It's just a car.

The other thing to be considered is that. at the moment I'm a pensioner on a limited income occuptaional pension, and I may not be, at the moment,  credit worthy for a personal lease scheme/car loan. Hopefully, that will change in three years time when I get a State pension.

 

Then there's the whole spectrum of new faults with a new model.

 

Experience to date is that MD's either try to avoid acknowledging them,  or push it to the right,  in the expectation of consequential  negative   effects on their franchise  if, by their customer response, they inflict a blot on the maker's copybook.

 

An Indy garage who just do servicing and repairs probably probably won't be so constrained.

 

Nick

Edited 26 January, 20179 yr by Clunkclick

I can understand both sides of this "bin it" or "sort it" argument, but as said, if that car lasts another 5 years and only needs another say £1430 of repairs done in that time, that only equates to £600 a year material costs.  It is very easy to look at a big spend and claim it cost that in 1 year, but it is the full life or full ownership costs that make sense.

Sometimes it is not very easy to work out when to part with a car, in my case, I was buying my wife a new car and had run that previous car for 13 years and 104K miles and as it had been a personal import the costs had been lower than running a UK sourced car into the ground. The other thing with her Polo was that probably due to where we live and the route my wife travelled to work, the underside of that car was in a very poor state even though it got regularly washed and hosed underneath - in my book if you are getting rusting on a modern car then it is only going to spread despite your best attempts to slow it down, so I think that I made the right call with that 2002 Polo.

As said replacing that car with another well used car could be problematic - there used to be a guy at work that did that, and needed to do that a lot while running out of money - he was a committed Rover 75 and VX Vectra TD fan, always working on what was not his preferred hobby!

ARB, if you have replaced the horrible plastic end stopped version with the solid or welded end stops, I'd not be expecting to replace that again - or am I wrong there? Probably just mounting bushes need replacing and/or the drop links.

Good Luck!

 

Edit:- just to add, in the case of my imported 2000 Passat 4Motion, I parted company with it after 13 years 87K miles, in that case I was probably getting nervous about the expensive parts needing worked on, though in all fairness it never failed for me, and it is still running okay apart from intermittent interior light/central locking issues it seems, it also seems like I'm getting "an opportunity" to run VCDS on it to see if it can help locate the root case of these issues, though I don't want to get involved with taking it apart in winter! My other reason for selling that car was to seize the chance to buy something that I fancied a bit more.

Edited 26 January, 20179 yr by rum4mo