cabin heating

[voxmagna]

Quote

Our previous petrol car heated up nice and fast and got proper hot air. The Superb takes forever to get warm and never quite gets proper hot. I know this is because it's a diesel but what are my options?

 

I don't understand the heater issue criticism of diesel cars. I have a 2l TDi V.W BMM series engine in a 2007 car and the EA189 CFHC engine in a 2012 Yeti. From a cold start both need about a mile to get heat out of the vents?  All internal combustion engines whether petrol or diesel produce kilowatts of waste heat. If the car has been standing overnight and the engine jacket is cold, it will take longer to warm up, but coolant should only be circulating around the bypass loop. Even though the temp. gauge may be stuck near the cold end, the cylinder head and bypass loop with the heater matrix in it should get hot quickly? Most heater problems are caused by thermostats that don't fully close, air locks or bad sensors. If after after 5-10 minutes running on a cold morning you can feel any part of the radiator warm then you have a partially open stuck thermostat. If you want to analyze the problem and have vcds, look at the cylinder head and engine temperatures during warm up. The cylinder head temperature should rise fairly quickly which is important because that controls the ECU cold (choke) fuel mapping. The engine temperature reading in the main cooling system should come up much more slowly and should only start to rise when the cylinder head temperature is near the stat opening temperature (check stat spec. but around 80C). There are some more complex thermostats around which include a bypass valve and these can go faulty, causing cold coolant to leak past the valve.

[snowathlete]

22 hours ago, voxmagna said:

 

I don't understand the heater issue criticism of diesel cars. I have a 2l TDi V.W BMM series engine in a 2007 car and the EA189 CFHC engine in a 2012 Yeti. From a cold start both need about a mile to get heat out of the vents?  All internal combustion engines whether petrol or diesel produce kilowatts of waste heat. If the car has been standing overnight and the engine jacket is cold, it will take longer to warm up, but coolant should only be circulating around the bypass loop. Even though the temp. gauge may be stuck near the cold end, the cylinder head and bypass loop with the heater matrix in it should get hot quickly? Most heater problems are caused by thermostats that don't fully close, air locks or bad sensors. If after after 5-10 minutes running on a cold morning you can feel any part of the radiator warm then you have a partially open stuck thermostat. If you want to analyze the problem and have vcds, look at the cylinder head and engine temperatures during warm up. The cylinder head temperature should rise fairly quickly which is important because that controls the ECU cold (choke) fuel mapping. The engine temperature reading in the main cooling system should come up much more slowly and should only start to rise when the cylinder head temperature is near the stat opening temperature (check stat spec. but around 80C). There are some more complex thermostats around which include a bypass valve and these can go faulty, causing cold coolant to leak past the valve.

 

Useful information, particularly around diagnosis. But I don't think it's a dysfunction in my car's case. It's functioning as I would expect for a diesel, I just haven't had a diesel for a few years and notice the difference compared to our petrol car. I think it's just the difference between diesel and petrol. Where the PTC heater comes as standard in other regions, it only comes as standard on diesels because petrol car's don't need them. It probably also depends a bit on the type of journey, in my case doing the school run I don't get up to speed enough to get heat into the engine, so there is no warm air. If I was driving on a faster road I suspect it might heat up quicker.

[TLV]

7 hours ago, snowathlete said:

If I was driving on a faster road I suspect it might heat up quicker.

 

I have two routes to get to town. Ones speed limit is 70km/h, the other's 90km/h. The car warms up significantly faster on the latter, after doing the same amount of distance on either. It comes down to using more fuel within the same time span/distance. Take the slow route and it barely blows warm air getting there, take the fast one and it's blowing hot half way there. Average economy barely differs.

[voxmagna]

14 hours ago, snowathlete said:

 

Useful information, particularly around diagnosis. But I don't think it's a dysfunction in my car's case. It's functioning as I would expect for a diesel, I just haven't had a diesel for a few years and notice the difference compared to our petrol car. I think it's just the difference between diesel and petrol. Where the PTC heater comes as standard in other regions, it only comes as standard on diesels because petrol car's don't need them. It probably also depends a bit on the type of journey, in my case doing the school run I don't get up to speed enough to get heat into the engine, so there is no warm air. If I was driving on a faster road I suspect it might heat up quicker.

 

Keep an eye on your DPF soot\ash levels and watch out for engine gumming up, because if you aren't getting the engine up to temperature it won't do a dpf filter regeneration and that should be the first discussion point of this thread, not cabin comfort.

 

The PTC heater might help passenger comfort but won't solve the problem of diesels engines needing to run hot enough to keep the DPF and associated emissions components working and clean. Local mileage driving mpg might be better than you think because there is no dpf regeneration taking place.  IMHO It's better to switch back to petrol for regular short distance low mileage use. You can manage the problem by factoring in at least one 30 minute motorway commute per week and possibly using a fuel cleaning additive? Engine emission malfunctions issues seem to occur 35-55k miles, or are brought on early after the Skoda ECU fix (on an already gummed up engine?).

[snowathlete]

2 hours ago, voxmagna said:

 

Keep an eye on your DPF soot\ash levels and watch out for engine gumming up, because if you aren't getting the engine up to temperature it won't do a dpf filter regeneration and that should be the first discussion point of this thread, not cabin comfort.

 

The PTC heater might help passenger comfort but won't solve the problem of diesels engines needing to run hot enough to keep the DPF and associated emissions components working and clean. Local mileage driving mpg might be better than you think because there is no dpf regeneration taking place.  IMHO It's better to switch back to petrol for regular short distance low mileage use. You can manage the problem by factoring in at least one 30 minute motorway commute per week and possibly using a fuel cleaning additive? Engine emission malfunctions issues seem to occur 35-55k miles, or are brought on early after the Skoda ECU fix (on an already gummed up engine?).

 

You're right that the bulk of our journeys would be more suited to a petrol but we bought the Superb because it suited us in lots of other ways and a petrol wasn't available so we ended up with a diesel. For every 50 diesel versions we found there were only two or three petrols. The petrol is most costly in fuel, insurance, and tax anyway so we probably wouldn't have chosen one. The car we ended up buying was local and at a good price, so that's what we ended up with. We're aware of the potential problem with the DPF so will manage it the best we can. I think the key thing will be knowing when the car attempts a regen and not interrupting it. It's done one regen since we bought the car and that was interrupted, but had we realized we could have taken it on an extended open drive. I've read the posts about the DFP app and we're going to get a cheap android phone just so that we can get it to monitor the DPF situation.

 

The previous owner had the "fix" so we're going to get that rolled back, but it'll probably be a month or two down the line because Shark Performance is a bit far away and they don't have local agents who can do the rollback. There's a local TopGear tuning place but they didn't really seem to know what they were talking about with regard to the emissions stuff. They did call the main TopGear office and they offered to send a guy to do the rollback, who presumably is more experienced, but I'd be more confident taking it to Shark or someone who I can be more certain knows what they're doing. I may call a couple of other local places to sound them out but it might be that we have to drive the car up to Derbyshire at some point.

 

I just had the engine oil changed because that's an important factor and I couldn't be certain what oil was used when it was last serviced by the previous owner, so at least I know it has low ash 507 oil in it now for sure.

 

Edited 28 January, 2018 by snowathlete

[voxmagna]

You seem to be across the issues. IMHO I don't think it's the EA189 mod. per se that causes the problem on its own. The mod. requires more from the emission control design and will find weaknesses putting up faults after their fix is done. Even rolling back, if your engine is gummed up already, it would only be a matter of (longer) time around 50k miles when faults start occurring.

 

Ash levels don't just come from oil. The majority of dpf ash will come from accumulated soot that gets converted to ash after each regen. cycle. Ash never leaves the dpf, it builds up until the fault threshold level is triggered.  This doesn't tell you so much about clogging because rising ash levels are bound to occur with regular dpf regen. cycles and i read the original life of a dpf before the mod was expected to be 100k miles.

 

The best indicator of dpf clogging due to failed or incomplete dpf re-generations will probably be the exhaust gas pressure drop measured by vcds across the dpf. Good ash and soot levels, but increasing pressure drop would indicate dpf clogging. When dpf pressure drop reaches the VAG set limit, the warning will come on. When those dpfs are torn apart, they aren't just full of ash but sticky black clogging, probably made worse by incomplete regens which leave excess unburned fuel in the dpf. As I said, if you are a short journey diesel driver you can manage regens as long as you know they have to start and complete. Reports are coming back that post EA189 mod. the  dpf regens are triggered more often. If you were being sold a new diesel car like this you probably wouldn't buy it because for short journey mileages, 300-400 miles when we think the dpf is regenerating it would be unacceptable. The USA got the best deal with car buy backs! 

 

When our Yeti was modified, the first thing we noticed was the cooling fan staying on in Winter after parking, which we never noticed before. I don't know whether engine bay cooling override has always been in the ECU software, but after the mod. I think it is now telling you that dpf regen. was started, but didn't complete allowing the dpf and exhaust to cool down before parking. Every subsequent short journey we did would finish with fans on after parking. Since I used vcds to force start a manual regen. followed by a 30 minute drive, the fans have not come on. That's when I started thinking about dpf cleaner additive and a weekly longer drive. If you use the car for shopping, it just means going to a store a bit further away every so often and keeping the rpm over 2K during the trip.

.

[snowathlete]

5 hours ago, voxmagna said:

You seem to be across the issues. IMHO I don't think it's the EA189 mod. per se that causes the problem on its own. The mod. requires more from the emission control design and will find weaknesses putting up faults after their fix is done. Even rolling back, if your engine is gummed up already, it would only be a matter of (longer) time around 50k miles when faults start occurring.

 

Ash levels don't just come from oil. The majority of dpf ash will come from accumulated soot that gets converted to ash after each regen. cycle. Ash never leaves the dpf, it builds up until the fault threshold level is triggered.  This doesn't tell you so much about clogging because rising ash levels are bound to occur with regular dpf regen. cycles and i read the original life of a dpf before the mod was expected to be 100k miles.

 

The best indicator of dpf clogging due to failed or incomplete dpf re-generations will probably be the exhaust gas pressure drop measured by vcds across the dpf. Good ash and soot levels, but increasing pressure drop would indicate dpf clogging. When dpf pressure drop reaches the VAG set limit, the warning will come on. When those dpfs are torn apart, they aren't just full of ash but sticky black clogging, probably made worse by incomplete regens which leave excess unburned fuel in the dpf. As I said, if you are a short journey diesel driver you can manage regens as long as you know they have to start and complete. Reports are coming back that post EA189 mod. the  dpf regens are triggered more often. If you were being sold a new diesel car like this you probably wouldn't buy it because for short journey mileages, 300-400 miles when we think the dpf is regenerating it would be unacceptable. The USA got the best deal with car buy backs! 

 

When our Yeti was modified, the first thing we noticed was the cooling fan staying on in Winter after parking, which we never noticed before. I don't know whether engine bay cooling override has always been in the ECU software, but after the mod. I think it is now telling you that dpf regen. was started, but didn't complete allowing the dpf and exhaust to cool down before parking. Every subsequent short journey we did would finish with fans on after parking. Since I used vcds to force start a manual regen. followed by a 30 minute drive, the fans have not come on. That's when I started thinking about dpf cleaner additive and a weekly longer drive. If you use the car for shopping, it just means going to a store a bit further away every so often and keeping the rpm over 2K during the trip.

.

 

I think there are some other threads about the pros and cons of using cleaners in diesel engines, there's certainly some other posts about it I've read, but most seemed to be against it as they can cause more problems than they solve? We used such engine cleaners on an old diesel years ago and that seemed fine but this was a ten year old engine, back another ten year's ago, far less refined than the Skodas so maybe these products aren't such a suitable treatment on modern engines? If clogging of the engine really a big concern, I haven't seen other posts about that.

 

I know DPF clogging is a concern though - Won't the soot and oil ash levels go up if it is getting clogged as that's what it'd be getting clogged with? My understanding was that the soot gets burnt off by the regens, but oil ash does not. I plugged a scanner in after I bought the car and got a reading. Here's the thread about that:

So looking at oil ash it seems the DPF is a little over half way through it's life after 43k miles. I've no idea how this compares to other people's DPFs. I also don't know how the rate of increase compares pre and post "fix" - that would be interesting to know. It'll be interesting to see how it goes with our shorter driving, but we only drive around 6k miles a year so the DPF should last a few years yet. But anything I can do to increase its life I want to do. Knowing when a regen is occurring sounds key to that. My husband thinks we might be able to get android installed on an old Kindle that we have, and so may be able to use that. He's going to look into it. If not, we'll buy a cheap Android phone. As you say, we can just drive somewhere we need to go that's a bit more distant, or even just go for a drive for the sake of it.

 

The scanner showed some pressure measures under the DPF component, is that the same as the exhaust gas pressures you're talking about? Once I know what to look for I can start recording them over time. We're probably going to buy VCDS instead of the Foxwell scanner we're borrowing from a friend, but need to get on and sell our old car first to finance it!

 

 

 

 

 

  

 

 

 

[voxmagna]

The dpf life doesn't just relate to annual mileage (EG throughput) but whether the engine is doing full re generations when it needs to. As I understand it soot from normal running is trapped in the dpf and re-generation heating to around 700C converts the higher volume soot trapped by the filter into a smaller amount of ash which stays there. Every re-generation cycle opens the fuel injectors a second time after the compression stroke and just before the exhaust stroke. This pushes raw diesel fuel into the dpf and exhaust system but also works with the EGR. The throttle valve restricts air supply to raise the temperature of gases being pushed through the exhaust system and this temperature is carefully controlled, which is why regen. only starts with a fully working system because of the potential fire risk.

 

I think the problem with aborted re generations is not just the soot and ash sitting there from normal running and a static raised soot level, but you now have extra partially burned fuel that has been poured into the dpf when normal running exhaust temperatures were not hot enough to take it through all the stages of fuel input, conversion to soot, then ash requiring temperatures 300-700+ deg.C. I have watched the temperature changes with vcds during a normal re generation. It is a fairly slow smooth event lasting around 15-20 minutes with the really hot end point temperature fairly tightly controlled. You would expect this because of the potential fire risk. There is another less aggressive version of the re-generation cycle which works around 500C and becomes active when the car is on a long journey cruise.

 

All the dpf parameters (soot, ash, pressure drop) are monitored against VAG preset maximum levels. Early warnings are given with just the dpf lamp lit when these parameters are some percentage away from their critical maximums. Their algorithm doesn't actually measure the soot and ash levels. It uses the dpf pressure drop and driving style to 'calculate' what they are expected to be, but I think pressure drop is a key figure because that is a real measured value. I can only tell you about pressure drop in vcds speak because vcds provides labels showing the maximum thresholds.  When the lower levels are reached the dpf can be re-generated either by a 20 minute drive at over 2k rpm or by the dealer forcing the start of a re generation. Once the upper threshold values are reached the 'Take to garage' warning is given, the dpf is dead and cannot be re-generated because the system prevents it. It does this because of the higher risk of fire trying to convert a large amount of soot to ash - a bit like having Thermit in your can!

 

If you decided to have a dpf professionally cleaned or replaced, the system requires the dealer (or vcds) to reset the learned soot, ash and pressure values. The system always expects a small pressure drop across a new dpf, which is why those that do a dpf remove have to have the ECU hacked to fool the complete emissions control loop and dpf monitoring. When others do this I'm not sure they fully understand the significant changes being made and it is either remove everything or nothing at all. I have a spare ECU to play with and I'm wondering if my system will re-calculate the dpf learned parameters each time I swap using the pressure drop, or if it will carry on from the learned values or blows a rasberry?  I've just finished designing a simple dpf monitor prototype and I'm in the testing phase. It's old school electronics not an app, which means it will sit in each of my 2 VAG diesels 24/7 without having to tie up the diagnostics port or have to be switched on with menus to mess with.

 

Now I think I understand what's going on, I'm less worried because I can manage it. The EA 189 mod. has raised potential issues because we suspect re generation cycle mileage has reduced which makes it more likely short journey low mileage owners will get more frequent re-gen requests they don't know about and a faster build up of partially burned fuel soot in their dpf.  Allowing extra fuel into the exhaust which might not reach the very high temperature to get burned is a real headache. I don't know what happens when a regen cycle is aborted? If the ECU keeps trying to complete the regen cycle by throwing in more fuel each time, that is seriously bad. If it says the last regen was aborted, initiate next regen, raise the EG temperature but don't add in more fuel unless needed to reach the high temperature threshold, that would work, although soot levels from normal driving will increase until there is a completed regeneration. You said you did a low mileage and expected good life from your dpf? I'm suggesting that if the EA 189 mod. requires more frequent dpf re generations this could reduce life for 2 reasons: 1. More chance re generation will not complete and 2. The extra fuel used for each regeneration attempt has to be burned and will produce more ash for the same mileage.

.

[snowathlete]

4 hours ago, voxmagna said:

The dpf life doesn't just relate to annual mileage (EG throughput) but whether the engine is doing full re generations when it needs to. As I understand it soot from normal running is trapped in the dpf and re-generation heating to around 700C converts the higher volume soot trapped by the filter into a smaller amount of ash which stays there. Every re-generation cycle opens the fuel injectors a second time after the compression stroke and just before the exhaust stroke. This pushes raw diesel fuel into the dpf and exhaust system but also works with the EGR. The throttle valve restricts air supply to raise the temperature of gases being pushed through the exhaust system and this temperature is carefully controlled, which is why regen. only starts with a fully working system because of the potential fire risk.

 

I think the problem with aborted re generations is not just the soot and ash sitting there from normal running and a static raised soot level, but you now have extra partially burned fuel that has been poured into the dpf when normal running exhaust temperatures were not hot enough to take it through all the stages of fuel input, conversion to soot, then ash requiring temperatures 300-700+ deg.C. I have watched the temperature changes with vcds during a normal re generation. It is a fairly slow smooth event lasting around 15-20 minutes with the really hot end point temperature fairly tightly controlled. You would expect this because of the potential fire risk. There is another less aggressive version of the re-generation cycle which works around 500C and becomes active when the car is on a long journey cruise.

 

All the dpf parameters (soot, ash, pressure drop) are monitored against VAG preset maximum levels. Early warnings are given with just the dpf lamp lit when these parameters are some percentage away from their critical maximums. Their algorithm doesn't actually measure the soot and ash levels. It uses the dpf pressure drop and driving style to 'calculate' what they are expected to be, but I think pressure drop is a key figure because that is a real measured value. I can only tell you about pressure drop in vcds speak because vcds provides labels showing the maximum thresholds.  When the lower levels are reached the dpf can be re-generated either by a 20 minute drive at over 2k rpm or by the dealer forcing the start of a re generation. Once the upper threshold values are reached the 'Take to garage' warning is given, the dpf is dead and cannot be re-generated because the system prevents it. It does this because of the higher risk of fire trying to convert a large amount of soot to ash - a bit like having Thermit in your can!

 

If you decided to have a dpf professionally cleaned or replaced, the system requires the dealer (or vcds) to reset the learned soot, ash and pressure values. The system always expects a small pressure drop across a new dpf, which is why those that do a dpf remove have to have the ECU hacked to fool the complete emissions control loop and dpf monitoring. When others do this I'm not sure they fully understand the significant changes being made and it is either remove everything or nothing at all. I have a spare ECU to play with and I'm wondering if my system will re-calculate the dpf learned parameters each time I swap using the pressure drop, or if it will carry on from the learned values or blows a rasberry?  I've just finished designing a simple dpf monitor prototype and I'm in the testing phase. It's old school electronics not an app, which means it will sit in each of my 2 VAG diesels 24/7 without having to tie up the diagnostics port or have to be switched on with menus to mess with.

 

Now I think I understand what's going on, I'm less worried because I can manage it. The EA 189 mod. has raised potential issues because we suspect re generation cycle mileage has reduced which makes it more likely short journey low mileage owners will get more frequent re-gen requests they don't know about and a faster build up of partially burned fuel soot in their dpf.  Allowing extra fuel into the exhaust which might not reach the very high temperature to get burned is a real headache. I don't know what happens when a regen cycle is aborted? If the ECU keeps trying to complete the regen cycle by throwing in more fuel each time, that is seriously bad. If it says the last regen was aborted, initiate next regen, raise the EG temperature but don't add in more fuel unless needed to reach the high temperature threshold, that would work, although soot levels from normal driving will increase until there is a completed regeneration. You said you did a low mileage and expected good life from your dpf? I'm suggesting that if the EA 189 mod. requires more frequent dpf re generations this could reduce life for 2 reasons: 1. More chance re generation will not complete and 2. The extra fuel used for each regeneration attempt has to be burned and will produce more ash for the same mileage.

.

There's a lot to take in there but it's very interesting. I'm surprised there isn't more information out there on the specifics of what happens in regens ("fix" aside as I doubt they want people to know. It sounds likely that one of the reasons why some have complained of lower fuel efficiency after the fix is because more of that fuel is ending up in the DPF than before.  The "fix" rollback just keeps going higher and higher on my list of things to do.

 

I'm not sure about getting a good life from my DPF, only that by doing less miles you have less soot, less regens, less oil ash over time compares to the same period if you were doing more miles. More and more though I see the importance of discovering more about the details of what exactly is going on with the regens so that I can better manage it. I realised this evening that we have a android tablet so I can get the app on that. I've ordered an adapter.

 

I've got a few other related thoughts about the DPF and extending it's life that you might be able to advise about:

 

If I understand correctly some of the soot ends up suspended in the engine oil. Does some of that soot (suspended in the oil) subsequently end up in the DFP? If so then maybe it's a good idea to protect your DPF by changing oil more regularly as you get so much in the oil after even a short time?

 

Somewhat related to that, what about start/stop? We tend to turn ours off because our battery came with a non-start stop battery fitted. I'm not sure how much start stop would save in terms of economy, and I suspect it's more to do with the environment. That's fine, but from a point of view of saving my DPF, I'd guess that more stop starts means more soot?

 

Would a parking heater, webasco, or electric, reduce soot build up by getting the engine up to temp quicker, and therefore increase the DPF life? I probably can't justify the cost of getting even a reconditioned one retro fitted, but I'm just curious as I imagine you're going to get more soot generated before the engine's up to temperature?

 

p.s. your electronic DPF device sounds cool, I love stuff like that.

Edited 29 January, 2018 by snowathlete

[voxmagna]

You are now getting your head around some of the things I've been thinking about and asking all the right questions.  I already said a modified EA 189 engine should now be treated like a new design. The difference for current owners is there is no new vehicle warranty and little is known about how the changes will affect long term reliability and ownership cost. By the time more issues come to light, the engine will be buried and manufacturers will not want to know. Yes you are correct about soot getting into engine oil. But there is something else to think about: We have been using Skoda recommended long life oils because of our low annual mileages. But the specs and tests on those oils and the service reminder algorithm have been defined and tested on engines without the EA 189 mod. We might now switch back to VAG spec. standard life oils, just to get rid of any extra soot more often. I ran one of the first decent turbo diesel cars which required an oil change at 3.5K and oil and filter every 6K.

 

Soot in engine oil if burned will end up in the dpf , that is the job it is supposed to do. We have got used to cleaner diesels now, but how often have you followed a newish diesel car belching black smoke? If it does it is likely the dpf has been removed. If your engine wear is low consistent with low oil use, I think the amount of extra soot in the oil will be much less than soot from burned and partially burned diesel fuel when you consider how many gallons of fuel you use compared to oil. My dipstick level never changes between oil changes. In addition to soot from combustion, remember that diesel fuel is light oil and some will wash or blow down the cylinder bores and into the engine oil.  I think more frequent oil changes using standard VAG recommended oils is a better strategy for any diesel engine.

 

I don't know what start stop in diesels will do, but I think it would be bad if you were doing short commutes, because the engine would take even longer to get to temperature unless Skoda disables start stop until the engine has reached temperature? When buses with large diesel engines are parked up they always keep their engines running, I know it's not ECO friendly but they want to keep their engines at operating temperature to run the heaters, air con etc. Faster warm up is always best for these engines. Adding external heating would help but you would need quite a lot of heat (electrical power) to keep the coolant and uninsulated engine block anywhere near normal temperature when it's freezing outside. A lot of cold air passes through the engine bay. Assuming the cooling system parts are working correctly, you might improve cold start warm up during Winter by adding a radiator blind or partially restricting the radiator grill with cardboard.

 

The ECU controls the fuel mapping and responds to the engine temperature sensor in the cyl. head. When your engine is stone cold, the ECU puts more fuel into the engine and forces the idle speed up to normal just like a choke on carburetor engines. The air to fuel mix ratio is then leaned off as the engine gets to temperature. The faster you get warm up, the sooner the engine is out of the choke phase. We haven't said yet if the EA 189 mod. has changed the engine timing. Engine timing can have a big effect on how fuel is burned and engine heat output. These ECO changes are aimed at achieving low emissions and good fuel consumption consistent with performance, but there are always trade offs.  It worries me that it takes a long time for an engine to be designed, tested and proven, yet in a matter of months important key aspects of how an existing engine design operates have been changed.

[snowathlete]

Interesting thoughts on engine oil. I think changing the oil more regularly has got to be of some benefit and even the high spec stuff can be had on offer for a good price so it's probably worth doing. Why use standard VAG recommended oils over the low ash recommended versions though?

 

I just read on this thread  that the engine being at operating temperature is one of the conditions for stop start, so that's something.

 

In terms of engine heaters, I saw Volvo (and probably others) have a mains plug in system. It's quite a simple install, basically just an inline heating element in the coolant hose and a small plug on the bumper. You can use a timer or even a remote controlled plug socket. I'd think it would be more economical to run than a webasto and obviously no drain on your car's battery either. As we park on the drive by the garage it would be simple enough to use in the winter. It would reduce engine wear, improve fuel economy, accelerate heater output to the cabin, and reduce the impact on the DPF as well. But I don't know how much energy it would use or how effective it would be, I'll look into it at some point. Maybe combining that with a total grill cover while parked would be effective - you've got to unplug the car anyway so not much more hassle to remove the cover at the same time.

 

I'm concerned about the EA 189 impact for the same reasons, they didn't do this from the start for a reason, and are only now because they must, is the fix even specific to the engine type? Doubt it, only as much as it must be to happen at all, I expect the approach is ultimately the same with all of them. Even if it was specific, the engines were not designed for this, had they wanted this from the start the engines may well have had all kinds of changes in design to better accommodate it.

 

[MikeHig]

It may be that my Stop/Start is faulty but it usually kicks in well before the engine is up to temperature. Yesterday - very mild weather - it cut in at a roundabout after only a few minutes' driving. On the other hand there have been times when it has not worked even with the car thoroughly warm and the deactivated symbol has come up in the dash. I can only guess that its operation is controlled by a number of factors such as temperature, battery condition, electrical load, etc..

I quite agree with your comments about the impact of the "fix". It strikes me as a bit of quick & dirty bodging to get VAG out of a hole.

[voxmagna]

The engine coolant heater idea would only work if you have a circulating pump? It doesn't need to be massive either. I know MY12 Yeti does have an auxiliary circulation pump in one of the hoses, at least that's what I think it is and I'm sure it's a recent addition to cool the block after parking in hot weather when the fans might be running. This is different to cold weather 'fans on' due to incomplete dpf regen. scenario. Check the price of their pump if that's what it is. It's bound to be 12 volts and with some cunning pulse width speed control you might be able to run that slowly for long life with an electric heater. Finger in the air without testing I'd suggest you need around 50-100 watts with a self contained adjustable thermostat.

[voxmagna]

5 hours ago, snowathlete said:

had they wanted this from the start the engines may well have had all kinds of changes in design to better accommodate it.

 

They probably had the solution, it was called AdBlue but considered it too expensive or difficult to fit retrospectively? It was much cheaper to change ECU software to pass emissions tests. I can only guess they reached the limit of what they could do to pass the tests and more stringent tests in the pipeline. Are there Euro 6 compliant diesel cars out there yet and have they had to install AdBlue systems?

[snowathlete]

56 minutes ago, voxmagna said:

The engine coolant heater idea would only work if you have a circulating pump? It doesn't need to be massive either. I know MY12 Yeti does have an auxiliary circulation pump in one of the hoses, at least that's what I think it is and I'm sure it's a recent addition to cool the block after parking in hot weather when the fans might be running. This is different to cold weather 'fans on' due to incomplete dpf regen. scenario. Check the price of their pump if that's what it is. It's bound to be 12 volts and with some cunning pulse width speed control you might be able to run that slowly for long life with an electric heater. Finger in the air without testing I'd suggest you need around 50-100 watts with a self contained adjustable thermostat.

 

Most of these devices come with one built in. Not sure about the Skoda but think one of my old cars had a thermostat which closed off when cold so wouldn't have allowed circulation round the system unless at operating temperature. Might be wrong about that though as I haven't thought much about coolant systems in recent years. Any idea about that on the Superb?

 

The better devices have thermostatic control so they shut off at a certain temp, usually 65-70 C or something like that, and some won't turn on unless it reaches a certain cold temp either. some come as kits and others just the heater that you have to wire in yourself. You can get drive-off connectors that disconnect safely if you forget you are plugged in! 

 

Most are between 1-3 kws. Obviously the larger ones heat things up quicker. The biggest potential issue is space - I have not looked yet at what space is available as obviously you need to connect the devices in line in the coolant system. Would be good if someone had already installed one and could comment!

 

There are two other similar options, but probably less favorable:

- mains connected heat pads which you stick to the bottom of the sump, which heat up the oil. I don't imagine these are as efficient, but probably easier and cheaper rto install.

- mains connected elements which screw into core plug holes. Not sure whether the Superb engine has core plugs even, or where they are. Most of all though I figure it would be safest to avoid anything going into the actual engine which has the potential to break off.

 

And of course there is a system like a Webasto but I don't think that's going to be suitable first because of cost (a second hand unit would be an option perhaps), but second because they run off the battery so you need to drive for long enough to put back what you've taken out which wouldn't suit us some of the time. 

 

 

[MikeHig]

It's my understanding that cars sold in countries like Norway and Canada are fitted with sump heaters as standard.

It might be worth finding out whether your car could be retrofitted.

[snowathlete]

One of the heaters I'm considering is from Defa. Here is their manual and it has some data from tests they did near the start using their coolant based heaters:
https://www.defa.com/content/uploads/Documentation/Downloads/Technical-information/Electrical-preheating/Technical-Handbook-EN.pdf

Not independent of course, but at minus 20 they claim this reduces particulate emissions by 15-30%. They also did the test at minus 10 and 0 but there's less data. At minus 20 fuel consumption 8-12% lower (I think over the entire test journey). It appears the first 2 km is where the biggest savings are made, with an example 1.9TDI engine reducing particulate commissions by ~30% at 0 degrees.

 

But they don't do a validated coolant based heater for the Superb though, not the 2.0 diesel CFGB engine anyway. The only validated heater they do for this engine is an oil pan heater, which you stick to the oil pan so it's easy install and it heats the oil. it's lower wattage than the coolant heater and I expect it is less efficient. From what I can ascertain from other users it increases the engine temp about 20-30 degrees from around 0 C. Is that worth bothering with, I don't know.

[snowathlete]

2 minutes ago, MikeHig said:

It's my understanding that cars sold in countries like Norway and Canada are fitted with sump heaters as standard.

It might be worth finding out whether your car could be retrofitted.

 

from what I gather in colder climates Skodas are fitted with Webascos.

[MikeHig]

Ah, I had no idea what that was. Learn a little every day, as they say! Thanks

[TLV]

Webasto is not the name of a heating system, it's the name of a company that focuses on vehicle heating, cooling and ventilation systems, but all auxiliary vehicle heating systems tend to be called Webasto, especially diesel parking heaters. There are several heating solutions they offer, but most common are air (mostly for trucks and RV's, only warm up the cabin) and coolant heaters, either running off of diesel or a mains power outlet.

 

No car really comes standard with a parking heater, because it's an expensive piece of aftermarket kit that not everyone will opt for, even in colder climates. In warmer climates it's not even possible to spec one, because the demand for them is so low. If anything, the colder climate cars come standard with the PTC heater.

 

Aftermarket solutions for your car from Webasto: Electric or diesel coolant heater.

 

Diesel parking heaters are most convenient. Turn it on from your remote 20 minutes before leaving the house and the heater will run independently from the engine, warming up the coolant. The cars' own ventilation fan will be used to warm up the cabin. Once you're ready to leave, the car is warm, thus starts easily and is comfy to be in. No ice scraping, no frozen doors.

 

The electric parking heater requires you to plug and unplug the car to mains power and the heating capacity is limited by the mains cables' throughput. Not as convenient, but probably cheaper and more reliable in the long run. Good systems will also charge your battery while hooked up as well.

 

 

Defa is a well known brand when it comes to auxiliary vehicle heating systems. The sump heater will warm up the engine a bit, but if I'd bother at all, I'd go for a coolant heater. Ideally you'd get both, but I recon the coolant heater suffices, especially in the UK. Here are some example kits that might fit your car:

Edited 30 January, 2018 by TLV

[snowathlete]

34 minutes ago, TLV said:

Webasto is not the name of a heating system, it's the name of a company that focuses on vehicle heating, cooling and ventilation systems, but all auxiliary vehicle heating systems tend to be called Webasto, especially diesel parking heaters. There are several heating solutions they offer, but most common are air (mostly for trucks and RV's, only warm up the cabin) and coolant heaters, either running off of diesel or a mains power outlet.

 

No car really comes standard with a parking heater, because it's an expensive piece of aftermarket kit that not everyone will opt for, even in colder climates. In warmer climates it's not even possible to spec one, because the demand for them is so low. If anything, the colder climate cars come standard with the PTC heater.

 

Aftermarket solutions for your car from Webasto: Electric or diesel coolant heater.

 

Diesel parking heaters are most convenient. Turn it on from your remote 20 minutes before leaving the house and the heater will run independently from the engine, warming up the coolant. The cars' own ventilation fan will be used to warm up the cabin. Once you're ready to leave, the car is warm, thus starts easily and is comfy to be in. No ice scraping, no frozen doors.

 

The electric parking heater requires you to plug and unplug the car to mains power and the heating capacity is limited by the mains cables' throughput. Not as convenient, but probably cheaper and more reliable in the long run. Good systems will also charge your battery while hooked up as well.

 

 

Defa is a well known brand when it comes to auxiliary vehicle heating systems. The sump heater will warm up the engine a bit, but if I'd bother at all, I'd go for a coolant heater. Ideally you'd get both, but I recon the coolant heater suffices, especially in the UK. Here are some example kits that might fit your car:

 

I spoke with Defa but only the contact heater is verified as suitable for the CFGB engine. They say this might be because some cars engine management sensors get confused when a coolant system is installed. As your link shows the coolant version did work with what I think was the older 2.0TDI engine version. I doubt there is much difference but maybe there is. Thing is, I wouldn't want to go to the expense and hassle just to find it upsets the car. The contact heater is an option of course but it is not as effective.

[langers2k]

If you main requirement is to cheaply heat the cabin more quickly, fit a PTC heater.

 

It cost me ~£50 for a used 'smart' version and ~£70 for the wiring and connectors from Skoda. I spliced into the CAN-bus behind the climate panel and it's work flawlessly since.

 

Part numbers I used:

1K0 963 235 E (PTC)

1K1 998 250 (PTC wiring)
1K0 972 704 C (connector)
10x N 907 647 01 (crimps for above connector)
N 105 255 06 (100a fuse)
N 101 181 05 (M5 nut)
WHT 000 906 (bolt)

[snowathlete]

2 minutes ago, langers2k said:

If you main requirement is to cheaply heat the cabin more quickly, fit a PTC heater.

 

It cost me ~£50 for a used 'smart' version and ~£70 for the wiring and connectors from Skoda. I spliced into the CAN-bus behind the climate panel and it's work flawlessly since.

 

Part numbers I used:

1K0 963 235 E (PTC)

1K1 998 250 (PTC wiring)
1K0 972 704 C (connector)
10x N 907 647 01 (crimps for above connector)
N 105 255 06 (100a fuse)
N 101 181 05 (M5 nut)
WHT 000 906 (bolt)

 

It was my main concern when I started exploring this, but this thread has changed my mind somewhat. I can now see the advantage to heating up the engine instead. You still get the benefit in the cabin plus less wear on the engine, better mpg, longer life from your DPF. But a second hand Webasto is difficult to get all the parts, more expensive, uncertainty over fitting, drains the battery. An electric coolant pre-heater seems the best solution IF it can be fitted without upsetting the engine management - only real downside to it is that you have to plug it in to the mains.

 

May still end up fitting a PTC though, thank you for posting the parts list.

[voxmagna]

Quote

I can now see the advantage to heating up the engine instead.

 

It's all a conundrum of a problem because that's not the only thing. Let's say your objective is to have the engine warm so you can blast off on a cold morning when your engine should run leaner and cleaner and even get a regen. done after a short time?

 

Remember the ECU fuel mapping also looks at incoming air temperature, whilst cold diesel fuel is not at its best for combustion. That leave the only best solution: Keep diesel Skodas in heated garages overnight or one of those up and over framed car cover tents!

[snowathlete]

The ECU is used to that though: a warm engine but cold air and fuel, that's surely how it is all the time driving around in winter once up to operating temperature.

I think the ECU should see the car similarly to a car that was run previously an hour ago and has since cooled down a bit but is still warm.

 

My thinking is that you want to keep the heater element away from the sensor as it'll probably be especially hot around the element and the sensor may then think the whole coolant is over hot. And you'll want not to plumb it in too close to the thermostat either. The thermostat being mechanical should just open up when the coolant reaches temp, if the element is fitted on the correct side, right?

 

Installed like that, I'm not sure what could really upset the ECU/coolant temp sensor?