England EV Charging points, a proposal. & location & news on new charging hubs in England & Wales.

[wyx087]

On ‎20‎/‎08‎/‎2019 at 18:18, lol-lol said:

Ubitricity do this, all single phase lowish charge rates as far as I can see.

 

https://www.ubitricity.co.uk/

 

On our chargers often tap in to the 3 phase power line to give the higher rapid charge rates.  

Yep, there's quite a few closer to central London. I looked at one closely the other day, it has an odd rating of ~5kW, I guess that's the maximum it can supply without re-doing the cabling. Looking around, there's no sign any resurfacing, so it must have been a easy and cheap upgrade.

[vrskeith]

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/evs-need-paying-and-charging-conformity-says-top-charger-maker

 

[wyx087]

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/advice/800-miles-week-electric-car-12-things-i-learned

800 miles in a week in an electric car: 12 things I learned

 

A balanced 12 things. Takeaway is that car is ready, infrastructure is mostly ready except for a few points (simpler payment, Ecotricity sucks, limited number of chargers)

[vrskeith]

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/ev-charger-operators-ally-single-subscription-access

 

[wyx087]

Subscription only access - very bad.

Smartphone access (app or website) - bad.

Single subscription access - not so bad.

Contactless credit card access - good.

 

InstaVolt are contactless already.

Polar have announced by end of next year, all rapids will have contactless payment capability.

Ecotricity and PodPoint are app access.......

 

We don't need any subscriptions, when you buy a petrol car, do you have to sign up to BP + Shell + Esso single subscription access to be allowed to buy petrol from there?

[lol-lol]

On 25/09/2019 at 16:40, vrskeith said:

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/ev-charger-operators-ally-single-subscription-access

 

 

This is only 9 of 50 or so EV charge providers.  Not sure how the part of my company ie Source London, with its thousand chargers, will go, hopefully contactless credit card too.  The charging post mechanisms are not cheap of course and it has to be economic.  

Collapse of our Paris AutoLib system should teach lessons.  EV cars and infrastructure needs subsiding until it reach critical mass.   

[Ootohere]

I was at a Premier Inn a few nights ago and the car park and car park near for the Brewers Fayer was choka.

 

There were 2 EV charging spaces and early evening a works lorry was taking up both spaces and it was still there in the morning.

Tough titty on anyone that thought they might charge overnight.

[wyx087]

On ‎27‎/‎09‎/‎2019 at 20:25, lol-lol said:

the part of my company ie Source London

Could you enlighten me regarding the Source London street chargers?

 

I've seen ones with Type 1 tethered cable, am I allowed to use this with my Leaf?

Could you tell me the meaning of the light on top of those chargers?

[lol-lol]

11 hours ago, wyx087 said:

Could you enlighten me regarding the Source London street chargers?

 

I've seen ones with Type 1 tethered cable, am I allowed to use this with my Leaf?

Could you tell me the meaning of the light on top of those chargers?

 

Don't know.  Source London are part of my super large entity but I only get involved in their Intrastat and then will get involved in the import play BREXIT but do not know about their usage other than you need a source London contactless card.  I would have thought TfL would want credit card using like the underground asap.

[wyx087]

11 hours ago, lol-lol said:

 

Don't know.  Source London are part of my super large entity but I only get involved in their Intrastat and then will get involved in the import play BREXIT but do not know about their usage other than you need a source London contactless card.  I would have thought TfL would want credit card using like the underground asap.

Thanks, no worries. Was just out of interest.

 

They do require Source London RFID card. Alternatively, you can ad-hoc pay via website by scanning the QR code on the charger. Unfortunately only ad-hoc payment was requirement by the 2018 legislation, not contactless pay. 

[vrskeith]

Mainland Europe example with Audi

 

 

[Ootohere]

Vorsprung Durch Technik.  Oops we did it again!

You might have thought someone high at Audi would have used their brain and said we are accused of cheating so often lets not publically be seen cheating with this little run to show what they are capable of crossing Europe.

[vrskeith]

12 minutes ago, Roottootemoot said:

Vorsprung Durch Technik.  Oops we did it again!

You might have thought someone high at Audi would have used their brain and said we are accused of cheating so often lets not publically be seen cheating with this little run to show what they are capable of crossing Europe.

Thought you would appreciate that George.

[Dodgy]

I still can't believe a company like VAG, fresh out of the dieselgate controversy, creates a video to be watched by everyone that essentially leaves them open to accusations of cheating - again.

You'd think someone in their marketing department would say "errr, guys, we need to think about this".

Jebus.

[lol-lol]

4 hours ago, Dodgy said:

I still can't believe a company like VAG, fresh out of the dieselgate controversy, creates a video to be watched by everyone that essentially leaves them open to accusations of cheating - again.

You'd think someone in their marketing department would say "errr, guys, we need to think about this".

Jebus.

 

Maybe those mobile charging power sources are a good idea for cold periods and at least get the power to a place where it is needed.

 

A 20 or 40 foot container with  50, 100, 150 kwh DC supply sounds great.  Get round waiting for the infrastructure to plug in to the 3 phase and get a permanent DC charger set up at service stations which cost 10k plus each.  Truck should rub on electricity of course, then nip of to a Megawatt charging area to top itself up. 

 

Since may EVs only do 2/3rd the range in the winter could be a useful seasonal need.  

[widdershins]

On 11/04/2019 at 10:41, Luckypants said:

This may help

 

https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/fleet-industry-news/2019/03/28/gridserve-to-build-100-solar-powered-electric-vehicle-forecourts

 

This is what will improve EV adoption, not one or two possibly working chargers at a motorway service station, perhaps ICE'd, perhaps not working, who knows.  But regular dedicated facilities with multiple points and different speeds.  https://youtu.be/FoN4WCpuxHY

 

 

Edited 4 December, 2020 by widdershins

[Luckypants]

Ha ha! Was just popping over here to post that video 

[wyx087]

1 hour ago, Luckypants said:

Ha ha! Was just popping over here to post that video 

Same. Was going to post it if I didn't see one.

 

It's such a good build, this is how EV rapid charging should be like.

 

Also notice how they are utilising the land and grid connection to make money on the side with its huge on-site battery. It's the overall energy solution I had been talking about way back in 2017/2018.

[J.R.]

I only watched a few seconds to see all that I needed to see, look at the size of that site compared to a normal multi-fuel filling station, "it can fast charge up to 36 cars!", how long does a fast charge take & how long a slow charge?

 

How many vehicles per hour would that equate to at a theoretical maximum capacity?

 

I bet that would not even account for 5 minutes of throughput of vehicles at a supermarket filling station.

[Luckypants]

So here's a conundrum, Gridserve have confirmed price as 24p/kWh at the EV charging hub but they also have Tesla Superchargers on-site which charge at 29p/kWh (unless special price for  those). What are they going to do when Kia e-Niro man comes in and finds all the Gridserve chargers full of Teslas charging as its cheaper? This is a problem @e-Roottoot has found in Scotland too, Teslas charging on the free CCS 50kW chargers right next to a bank of Superchargers. Just wondering, as these will be problems to be worked out by operators.

[Ootohere]

@J.R.

There is a difference in a Rapid Charge and a Quicker Rapid charge and a much faster Rapid charge.

So like 43-50 kW, 100-125 kW and 350 kW chargers, and the vehicles which can use these.

Maybe just for a quick fill up rather than a charge to 90-100%

 

Fast Chargers are something rather slower that you are parking up to get as it might be quite awhile getting charged up.

 

Only 2 locations with 350kW chargers in Scotland as far as i know.

[wyx087]

2 hours ago, J.R. said:

I only watched a few seconds to see all that I needed to see, look at the size of that site compared to a normal multi-fuel filling station, "it can fast charge up to 36 cars!", how long does a fast charge take & how long a slow charge?

 

How many vehicles per hour would that equate to at a theoretical maximum capacity?

 

I bet that would not even account for 5 minutes of throughput of vehicles at a supermarket filling station.

Remember, unlike liquid fuel cars, vast majority of charging will not happen at these rapid chargers. This is more designed for mid-journey rest stops, where you rest for 20-30min before continuing your journey.

 

Over 95% of my EV is slow charged overnight when it's parked doing nothing. So will vast majority of EV's because vast majority of the time a car is parked doing nothing. Therefore throughput of these hubs doesn't need to be anywhere near traditional petrol stations.

[widdershins]

I think you are both right, and at the same time wrong regarding EV charging hubs.  There are two distinct use cases and must be thought of independently I think. 

 

First I'll call town and country driving.  This is the usual commute to work, shops, etc.  In this I think you are correct that there will be a significant amount of overnight charging at home which will reduce the need for "filling stations".  But here will still be some need since around 60% of uk households don't have a driveway to charge at home, and lamp-post and workplace charging is quite some way off from national availability on every street and office.  The slower charging times of EV's at filling stations will offset the reduced demand for them due to home charging.  So I think that overall we'll see a similar number of local charging stations as there are ICE filling stations at present unless 350KW/hr+ charging becomes the norm at these chargers (and in cars).

 

The second use case is long haul motorway driving.  If we look at the number of pumps at motorway service stations and take that as representative of long haul demand  - since no-one pays the extortionate motorway fuel prices if they can avoid it, and motorway service stations wouldn't incur the excess maintenance costs of more pumps/tanks/etc. than the demand merited.  Then we can see a problem looming when everyone switches to EV's. 

 

They don't have the equivalent range to ICE vehicles, so more "fill-ups" will be required on long haul journeys, so more chargers will be needed than current ICE pumps to meet demand.  EV's also take longer to recharge than equivalent ICE to refuel, so more chargers again will be needed.  Again 350+KW chargers & vehicles would reduce charge times and so reduce the pump requirements, but unless EV range dramatically increases they'll still need to charge 2-3 times as often, so that part of the equation would stay the same.

 

And I'm talking about times stopped and occupying a pump/charger rather than just time stopped at present in the services.  Many ICE drivers will park at the services to use the facilities without ever using the pumps.  I know when I drive south I hardly ever use the pumps, but do use the facilities.

 

Indeed, if you look at the number of cars parked at motorway services at any given time you could easily argue that is the number of additional rapid chargers that each services will need over and above the number of pumps they have at present.  These are the people not using the pumps in the usual "well I need to stop anyway in an ICE car for 20 mins to use the loo/get coffee after a couple of hours" argument that many EV owners use to excuse the shorter EV range.

[wyx087]

42 minutes ago, widdershins said:

Indeed, if you look at the number of cars parked at motorway services at any given time you could easily argue that is the number of additional rapid chargers that each services will need over and above the number of pumps they have at present. 

This is the key to enabling people to travel in EV without worry about mid-journey rapid charging. The number of chargers at those locations need to scale proportionally to number of EV’s on the road. 
 

And selfishly as someone who can charge at home, I think this should be where most of infrastructure investment should happen. Get all those who can charge at home into EV as soon as possible. 
 

Then simply mandate all new housing to include cabling for any allocated parking spots. It won’t cost much to lay down the 40amp cable while the houses are built. 

[widdershins]

And require new housing developments to have lamppost/kerbside chargers so visitors can charge their ev without grandpa having to come out to move his off the single charging spot on his driveway.

 

I also think the best motorway option would be to start by building some intermediate EV only services in the style of gridserve.  Especially on the long distance N/s and E/W routes where demand would be highest from longer distance journeys.  Since EV's have shorter ranges it would actually allow drivers to safely go lower on battery before stopping for recharging.  Most EV drivers would be reluctant to risk pushing on past the services if the next charger was 50 miles away and they had 51 miles of range.  But if they knew the next charger was only 25 miles away they'd be more likely to go on to that, and they'd also get a faster charge for longer if their battery was at a lower SOC when they started charging again.