Reminded why STOP/START is nonsense

[Ootohere]

Drivers might be the greatest of car / engine enthusiasts and will treat vehicles like they would their children. But work is work and rented vehicles they do not own are a tool of the job they will hand back and do not care about what it's life expectancy is.   Manufacturers seem to think that way with fleet users, punt them new,  punt them again as used,  then forget them.  

[gregoir]

I reported this as a warranty issue over a year ago on my MY16 petrol Octavia. It has been investigated 3 times. They couldn't find anything wrong-even though it doesn't work or it was working correctly - the weather was too cold etc etc. Its worked randomly, maybe on three occasions, this year. 

My main concern is that the battery may not be getting sufficiently  charged and I will get the repeat of the 12v battery low, please drive vehicle from last winter. I'm doing regular 60 mile return journeys.

Yet again I have asked the service desk to sort the problem .Yet again someone has promised to phone me back. I deal with a main dealer in northeast Derbyshire.

The first year of ownership I ran the vehicle through a winter and a summer without any problems, long and short journeys. 

[xman]

1 hour ago, gregoir said:

I reported this as a warranty issue over a year ago on my MY16 petrol Octavia. It has been investigated 3 times. They couldn't find anything wrong-even though it doesn't work or it was working correctly - the weather was too cold etc etc. Its worked randomly, maybe on three occasions, this year. 

My main concern is that the battery may not be getting sufficiently  charged and I will get the repeat of the 12v battery low, please drive vehicle from last winter. I'm doing regular 60 mile return journeys.

Yet again I have asked the service desk to sort the problem .Yet again someone has promised to phone me back. I deal with a main dealer in northeast Derbyshire.

The first year of ownership I ran the vehicle through a winter and a summer without any problems, long and short journeys. 

 

Two things I would do.

 

1st fully charge the battery using a charger that can do so, and I mean fully. I am fortunate as an electronics engineer to have variable precision power supplies, meters etc I can use, put them on the battery, set to 14.3 volts (14.6 if AGM) and leave them until the current drops below c/100 (one hundredth of Ah capacity) then turn down to 13.5-13.6 volts and leave connected for at least 2 or 3 days, keeping an eye on charge current (or set limit) making sure it stays low, below say 200mA. Charging a Lead acid battery fully takes a long long time. If the battery is sulphated it may take longer, if stratified, well its too difficult to suggest an easy remedy.

 

Even these super duper intelligent chargers (CTEK etc) are designed for the quick user fix and speedy "all systems green" when they say battery full it may be anything but, especially if the battery has been allowed to run down for extended periods and is sulphated or stratified.

 

Then, importantly, ask the dealer if the battery coding is exactly correct. This is critical as the smart charging must know the characteristics of the battery its trying to manage.

 

Agm and efb cannot be interchanged without the correct code being programmed or it will never work right.

Edited 19 September, 2018 by xman

[silver1011]

4 hours ago, gregoir said:

They couldn't find anything wrong-even though it doesn't work.

 

Am I reading this incorrectly?

 

Your stop/start isn't stopping the engine as often as expected?

 

Wouldn't that therefore preserve the battery charge?

 

Sounds ideal to me 

 

Or is it failing to re-start automatically?

 

Edited 19 September, 2018 by silver1011

[gregoir]

I'd like it to work, as that would give me an assurance that the battery was getting fully charged, as on the detailed reply above  from xman.I do not have access to such charging methods. Last winter I got warnings about the low charge level of the 12V battery. I am also annoyed about the poor resolution and diagnosis and communication by  the main dealer. 

 

Edited 26 September, 2018 by gregoir

[jasoncmiles]

Stop start ...

 

 

[GIBSONMB]

I drive an Audi Q2 DSG Diesel at the moment. It has different drive modes and  I tend to select Eco or Comfort. How soon the engine stops is affected by which drive mode is selected. If you select sport mode it almost never stops. IF I select Eco, it stops before I have actually pulled up at the red traffic light. So what, you just get used to it. I'm quite used to the fact the engine stops before I have pulled up. It kicks in again as soon as I hit the accelerator or indeed as soon as the vehicle in front pulls away if I have adaptive cruise on. The fact the turbo gets hot or any other technical load on the battery which is specifically designed for stop /start, I really don't care. It's under warranty and will be sold long before the three year warranty runs out. I do however care about the fact that I'm not puking diesel fumes all over pedestrians and cyclists at the traffic lights. Further of course in various countries, Switzerland for example, if my engine is running at traffic lights I'm probably breaking the law and I'd rather not be doing that. This will eventually be mandatory on all vehicles and you'll not be able to turn it off. So for those who don't like it for whatever reason, enjoy the limited time you have without it.

[silver1011]

13 hours ago, GIBSONMB said:

I drive an Audi Q2 DSG Diesel at the moment...

...I do however care about the fact that I'm not puking diesel fumes all over pedestrians and cyclists at the traffic lights.

 

If it bothers you that much then perhaps an EV or Hybrid would have been a better choice.

[MrTrilby]

It bothers me too, but sadly there’s not much in the way of choice of you want a large SUV that’s EV or hybrid. The Tesla Model X is the closest fit for us, but sadly waaay out of price range. 

[silver1011]

Yep, life is full of trade-offs. If emissions and pollution are high up your priority list, forgoing an SUV type vehicle might have to be one of those sacrifices.

[SuperbTWM]

22 minutes ago, silver1011 said:

Yep, life is full of trade-offs. If emissions and pollution are high up your priority list, forgoing an SUV type vehicle might have to be one of those sacrifices.

Exactly, at the end of the day, most people including myself are not going to be out of pocket to make a negligible difference to the amount of NOx hanging about in city centres. 

 

start/stop is a great idea for stopping for minutes at a time, and if I know i will be stopped for more than 20 seconds I will stop the engine, but in the real world your never stood for long enough to make it count anyway. No sooner has the engine knocked off its time to pull forward another 10 yards.

[NikTheGreek]

Dear GIBSONMB greetings from Thessaloniki, Greece. I noticed an argument in your otherwise wise post. We dont all get to swap cars in 3 or 4 years, while they are under warranty. So i am expecting skoda or any other manufacturer of commercial vehicles to provide me an environmental friendly start stop system that its use does not compromise other vital parts of the vehicle, like turbo charger or battery etc.

[Yogi-Bear]

5 hours ago, MrTrilby said:

The Tesla Model X is the closest fit for us, but sadly waaay out of price range. 

 

It's also hideously ugly and the interior quality is typical of cars from the other side of the pond.

 

However... any car that has a 'ludicrous' mode is instantly awesome, no matter what failings it might have. If I had the requisite £150k, I'd be tempted. But then I'd by a Kodiaq again and spend the rest of booze and hookers instead .

[MrTrilby]

Most modern cars look 

4 hours ago, silver1011 said:

Yep, life is full of trade-offs. If emissions and pollution are high up your priority list, forgoing an SUV type vehicle might have to be one of those sacrifices.

 

We thought about that, but turns out it’s tricky carrying 4 bikes, 4 people and a dog around in a super mini. So we compromised by going for something that at least offered EU6, AdBlue and stop start. And actually, we picked the SUV because it’s a bit cleaner than a similar sized van. 

Edited 29 September, 2018 by MrTrilby

[silver1011]

It was the desire (not requirement) for a 7-seater, the high driving position and a petrol engine that took us down the road of the Kodiaq.

 

If either of the first two elements could have been sacrificed then a Superb estate will do everything the Kodiaq will do, and for the same money, arguably with this engine, quite a bit more. After a little negotiation this higher specced, higher performing Superb would cost the same as we paid for our Kodiaq...

 

 

I'm sure it would cope with four adults a dog and towbar mounted bike rack with as much ease as a Kodiaq.

 

If it has to be a 190PS diesel...

 

 

 

Edited 29 September, 2018 by silver1011

[MrTrilby]

1 minute ago, silver1011 said:

I'm sure it would cope with four adults a dog and towbar mounted bike rack with as much ease as a Kodiaq.

 

I’m sure it wouldn’t as we actually tried it before we bought. We took all of the equipment and dog cage that we need to carry and tried to fit it in the boot of all the cars that we looked at. Didn’t fit in the Superb, did fit in the Kodiaq. Had it fitted in the Superb we’d happily have bought the cheaper and more economical car (although we also thought the Kodiaq was a quieter and more refined ride). 

[silver1011]

 

 

Edited 29 September, 2018 by silver1011

[MrTrilby]

7 minutes ago, silver1011 said:

 

I’m really not sure what point you’re making? Yes, our stuff would fit in a Sharan just like the Kodiaq, and the Sharan is a similar cost with similar emissions.

 

But the Sharan can’t be had with some of the really nice options available on the Kodiaq, and despite similar emissions doesn’t have the bonus of greater ground clearance and 4x4 (which are handy but not essential for us). 

[silver1011]

I was assuming emissions / economy were high up your priority list, but that your other requirements were forcing you down the SUV route ( 4 adults, dog and bikes, comfort, EU6 AdBlue and stop/start).

 

The Autotrader links are a few examples of cars with most, if not all, of those features but without the obvious environmental disadvantages that are often associated with SUV's.

 

As selfish / unpleasant as it sounds I'm willing to acknowledge that our desire to own an SUV is above that of the guilt of emitting higher levels of pollution. Like I say, a trade-off. Worrying about disabling stop start on an SUV is like trying to close the stable door after the horse has bolted in my opinion.

 

It is good that a growing number of people are now prioritising emissions and fuel economy over other needs and wants, and choosing an equally capable estate or MPV over an arguably more desirable SUV. I'm not there yet, but looking at the Sharan I linked has got me thinking.

[MrTrilby]

10 minutes ago, silver1011 said:

I was assuming emissions / economy were high up your priority list, but that your other requirements were forcing you down the SUV route ( 4 adults, dog and bikes, comfort, EU6 AdBlue and stop/start).

 

Yes, and from what I can see, there’s only 2g difference in emissions between the Sharan and the Kodiaq, so they’re virtually identical. Still not sure what your point is?

[silver1011]

It isn't apples for apples (148bhp vs. 190bhp, 2WD vs. 4x4) but there is quite an improvement with the Sharan...

 

Sharan 7-seater SEL 2.0 TDI 148PS DSG 2WD...

 

 

Kodiaq 5-seater SE L 2.0 TDI 190PS DSG 4x4...

 

 

MPG - 54.3 vs. 49.6 (-9%)

CO2 - 137 vs. 150 (+9%)

 

The point being, there are equally capable but more environmentally friendly alternatives out there, unless you have to have an SUV.

[MrTrilby]

6 minutes ago, silver1011 said:

It isn't apples for apples (148bhp vs. 190bhp, 2WD vs. 4x4) but there is quite an improvement with the Sharan...

 

It’s not at all apples for apples. Particularly given you could have made it much fairer comparison by using the 184ps Sharan compared with the 190ps Kodiaq (which are within 3.5mpg of each other). Or the 148ps 2wd Sharan against the 150ps 2wd Kodiaq in which case the Kodiaq is 2mpg better. 

 

 So like I said, they’re pretty much identical on fuel, only the Sharan is slower and less well equipped. 

[silver1011]

Or I could have compared the 2.0 TDI 150PS Kodiaq and forgone the 4x4 disadvantage, and unsurprisingly the gap grows even more.

 

You're missing the point. Either way I suspect emissions and economy aren't as high up your priority list as you claim, and in actual fact you're much like the rest of us Kodiaq owners, in that the appeal of an SUV outweighs some of the social disadvantages.

[Ootohere]

The Fuel Figures and Emissions were all fiction as they were never done with 4 bikes, 4 people and a dog, and still will not be when you see the WLTP / RDE numbers.

 

I got a 2.0TDI 150ps SCR DSG Alhambra without roof rails or electric motors for the rear doors, or leather & 16" Alloys that was not showing good MPG or Co2 g/km in the SEAT brochure or comparing with the VW Sharan brochure & there models, but then in the real world with people and bikes and luggage it is better than the 'Official Figures' from an empty car tested inside a building.

Obviously better than the heavier better equipped and heavier with wider tyres Alhambra & Sharan.

Not even that sure the ground clearance is actually 3 cm less than a Kodiak 2.0TDI SCR DSG.

 

Stop start works all the time really unless there is a big difference between the ambient or interior heat and the setting on the cars heater.

Even works almost all the time with the A/C on.  occasionally i press the AC to on to disable the Stop / start rather then hitting the Stop / Start off button.

Edited 29 September, 2018 by Offski

[MrTrilby]

9 minutes ago, silver1011 said:

Or I could have compared the 2.0 TDI 150PS Kodiaq and forgone the 4x4 disadvantage, and unsurprisingly the gap grows even more.

 

I think you’ve misread the figures that you posted yourself. The 2.0 TDI 150bhp  2wd Kodiaq hits 56.5mpg and 131g CO2. The 2.0 TDI 150bhp 2wd Sharan 54.3mpg and 137g CO2. 

 

So the Kodiaq gets better fuel economy and puts out less CO2, and yet you’re persisting with claiming the Kodiaq is “socially disadvantaged”? That’s just weird. 

 

And it’s a little bit arrogant of you to presume you know our requirements better than we do. You seem to have reduced it to a one dimensional assumption of it all being about economy. For information, our requirements were big enough to fit our stuff, economical, comfortable on a long journey, decent headlights for driving at night, CarPlay. An opening panoramic roof was on the nice to have list. 

 

We we discounted the Sharan (and SEAT equivalent) on the grounds that although easily big enough, I didn’t find the seats as comfortable for long treks (specified the electric driver seat on the Kodiaq for precisely that reason). You could also add concerns over comparative safety of an older design car and poorer residuals, but the comfort had already killed it as an option. 

 

We  also discounted the S-Max as it’s not possible to have the panoramic roof with roof bars so would have to pick between pleasant interior or ability to carry a roof box - no such compromise with the Kodiaq. 

 

And we discounted the Transit Custom because the dog would have to live apart in the load area with no ventilation. 

 

VW Caravelle was discounted because it’s astronomically expensive and out of our range. 

 

The Mitsubishi PHEV was discounted because although massive outside, it couldn’t carry all our stuff inside. 

 

Really no idea why I need to justify our car purchases to you, other than to demonstrate that choosing cars is not nearly as simplistic “just pick the most economical and be done with it”. 

 

And to get the thread vaguely back on track, having got a car with stop start, I’m more than happy for it to try and reduce emissions when we’re stopped. Other posters on here are perhaps misleading themselves if they think they are in some way more mechanically sympathetic leaving an engine with cold oil to idle: so long as the crank bearings remain lubricated a start with modern cold oil is just fine. It takes a long time for oil to warm up when the engine is just idling with no load - much better in my opinion to shut it down at that point and let it warm up under load.