EV real world range and cost to charge

[domhnall]

On 07/04/2024 at 06:38, Rooted said:

Yesterday in Girvan where there is one Rapid Charger a New Beige Jaguar EV was plugged into the charger the whole day from early morning until night and locked in so stopping anyone else using the DC charging.

New charge is 37 pence a kWh, 60 minutes max charge time and a £30 overstay. 

They were maybe fine getting a full battery for £30,00 and treating the charger as theirs for a day.

Maybe not even 30 x 37 pence plus £30 as i have seen chargers where there is the penalty charged but not the electric charged for.

There are places where it might be a kWh tariff for 40 -say 60 minutes then £1 a minute and people just stay til full, as it is just money. 

 

......................

Lots of money...

 

tht grid fee is £5000 per charger, per year

 

 

[Ootohere]

Best they are on and being used then, getting in revenue.

Having expenses and overheads and nothing to pay towards that is not the best of business and if someone went to a bank with that as a business model likely in Britain they might get asked.  Is that all you want, here have more money and then be sure to have a crap maintenance schedule.  

[Ootohere]

Windy and cold and drizzle. Started off with 100% and 100 mile range.  Onto dual carriageway and 54 miles in 56 minutes. Diversion  Route into Aberdeen busy.  Down to 44% battery so headed for nearest PodPoint at LIDL rather than a MFG  or hopeless council chargers.  PodPoint 65 pence a kWh.  I will go to 98%.  MFG are 75 pence and Council if I get one working 47 pence.    I will have to charge again before heading back south so maybe another PodPoint at Tesco's 62 pence a kWh without needing to be back into Aberdeen.   Running  a diesel would be cheaper as I only have around 90 miles from my home 22 kWh tariff.   Planned journeys with a small battery can often need changed because of road closures etc.  now going to be where I was going first 40 mins later than planned but now no going to panic about chargers for another 90 miles and when I have plenty time to charge.      Edit.  15.13 kWh cost £9.84 and my £10 top up to my account was not through so charging stopped.  Now started charging again to 98%.  Does not look like going to be getting warmer today but I will be on slower back roads.      Bl00dy expensive so far  £9.84 for only 54 miles driven.  That was CC on and car at Green + so no heating on.  Green, mid or sport and heating at 16,*oC would have reduced the range by maybe only 5 miles but today I wanted to see the best range and it turns out it is crap. 

Edited 19 April by Rooted

[Ootohere]

Actually plus another £2 to get to 98%>. 

[Winston_Woof]

37 minutes ago, Rooted said:

Windy and cold and drizzle. Started off with 100% and 100 mile range.  Onto dual carriageway and 54 miles in 56 minutes. Diversion  Route into Aberdeen busy.  Down to 44% battery so headed for nearest PodPoint at LIDL rather than a MFG  or hopeless council chargers.  PodPoint 65 pence a kWh.  I will go to 98%.  MFG are 75 pence and Council if I get one working 47 pence.    I will have to charge again before heading back south so maybe another PodPoint at Tesco's 62 pence a kWh without needing to be back into Aberdeen.   Running  a diesel would be cheaper as I only have around 90 miles from my home 22 kWh tariff.   Planned journeys with a small battery can often need changed because of road closures etc.  now going to be where I was going first 40 mins later than planned but now no going to panic about chargers for another 90 miles and when I have plenty time to charge.      Edit.  15.13 kWh cost £9.84 and my £10 top up to my account was not through so charging stopped.  Now started charging again to 98%.  Does not look like going to be getting warmer today but I will be on slower back roads.      Bl00dy expensive so far  £9.84 for only 54 miles driven.  That was CC on and car at Green + so no heating on.  Green, mid or sport and heating at 16,*oC would have reduced the range by maybe only 5 miles but today I wanted to see the best range and it turns out it is crap. 

remind me again, why do people do this to themselves.

Im mean sure, EV technology is there and could be an alternative for some in some scenarios   but if the Government wasn't pushing it via legislation would it really survive on its own merits?

[Stonekeeper]

"£9.84 for only 54 miles driven."

 

It's the future.

 

Imagine when they have no competition

[Ootohere]

£11.96 it was for that 54 miles and that was not back to 100%.  The next 50 miles took me to 50% battery from 98% and I am charging free just now on a 11kW AC charger.   So that might be 30 free gratis when done. 

[Stonekeeper]

3 minutes ago, Rooted said:

£11.96 it was for that 54 miles and that was not back to 100%.  The next 50 miles took me to 50% battery from 98% and I am charging free just now on a 11kW AC charger.   So that might be 30 free gratis when done. 

 

It is good whilst the "Free" and reduced home charging tariffs exist.

 

My suspicion of the way this is going to go in the future is backed up by the changes made to feed in tariffs etc for solar panel users and the "benefits" have slowly been eroded over time.

 

Once everyone is hooked in it will be too late.

 

I confess to be a 64 yo cynic.

 

Nothing is ever done by governments that isn't designed to help big business and the select few as the goal.

[Winston_Woof]

14 minutes ago, Stonekeeper said:

 

It is good whilst the "Free" and reduced home charging tariffs exist.

 

My suspicion of the way this is going to go in the future is backed up by the changes made to feed in tariffs etc for solar panel users and the "benefits" have slowly been eroded over time.

 

Once everyone is hooked in it will be too late.

 

I confess to be a 64 yo cynic.

 

Nothing is ever done by governments that isn't designed to help big business and the select few as the goal.

any replacement for fossil fuel powered cars should not be reliant on the ability of users to "refuel" at home especially given the majority of people (in many countries not just the UK)  do not have dedicated off road parking for their vehicles at home.

[lol-lol]

2 hours ago, Stonekeeper said:

"£9.84 for only 54 miles driven."   It's the future.   Imagine when they have no competition

 

The current Mini is a low range EV, there are plenty of EVs available at similar cost which have much greater range where public charging is much more rare and those of us lucky enough to have home chargers we actually only public charge less than 5% of the time so our usual cost per mile for energy is 2p per mile with just the occasional use of a 20p per mile public charge up where we will will just charge for a few minutes to get a few tens of miles to get us home to our super cheap home charge or free destination chargers sometimes.

 

Where as fuel prices are going up due to the Middle East and Eurasian wars electricity prices are dropping as networks such as TESLA v4 charging stations, open to all makes and therefore public charging cheaper.  Batteries are getting substantially cheaper year on year whereas ICE cars have to keep getting better to be sold ie EURO7 emissions soon.

 

Euro 7 rules likely to make pure ICE cars become hybrid so their braking energy has no brake dust and car can travel at full speed in EV mode, like the Clio etech does (My Arkana cannot sadly as on MHEV) .  UK will follow EU rule of course as it has left the EU for benefits but must follow for such laws as emissions etc....  

https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2024/04/12/euro-7-council-adopts-new-rules-on-emission-limits-for-cars-vans-and-trucks/   

Edited 19 April by lol-lol

[Stonekeeper]

4 hours ago, lol-lol said:

 

The current Mini is a low range EV, there are plenty of EVs available at similar cost which have much greater range where public charging is much more rare and those of us lucky enough to have home chargers we actually only public charge less than 5% of the time so our usual cost per mile for energy is 2p per mile with just the occasional use of a 20p per mile public charge up where we will will just charge for a few minutes to get a few tens of miles to get us home to our super cheap home charge or free destination chargers sometimes.

 

Where as fuel prices are going up due to the Middle East and Eurasian wars electricity prices are dropping as networks such as TESLA v4 charging stations, open to all makes and therefore public charging cheaper.  Batteries are getting substantially cheaper year on year whereas ICE cars have to keep getting better to be sold ie EURO7 emissions soon.

 

Euro 7 rules likely to make pure ICE cars become hybrid so their braking energy has no brake dust and car can travel at full speed in EV mode, like the Clio etech does (My Arkana cannot sadly as on MHEV) .  UK will follow EU rule of course as it has left the EU for benefits but must follow for such laws as emissions etc....  

https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2024/04/12/euro-7-council-adopts-new-rules-on-emission-limits-for-cars-vans-and-trucks/   

 

Enjoy it whilst you can

 

There is no such thing as "free"

Edited 19 April by Stonekeeper

[Ootohere]

I got home with 25% battery yesterday after having charged again 15 kWh at 65 pence so £9.75.

I could have charge a little less but i only had 21 mile range.  I was nipping on, it was cold and there was every chance of a diversion so charged to 98%.

 

 

Now today is going to be damn expensive.

Car showing 100% after charging at home at 22 pence a kWh.  Only showing 93 miles, but it will do over 100 miles easily as i head to Edinburgh.

*27 kWh in 11 hours 45 minutes into a 32.6 kWh battery, less than 30 kWh usable & that cost me £5.96*

 

Charging again public charger in about 85 miles.

 

So when i charge today public the choices are expensive.

Edinburgh Council chargers, 7 / 11 kW AC 45 pence a kWh.

EC ^^^ Rapids 55 pence & Edinburgh Airport Park & Ride still off from the flood last summer. 

Podpoint 11 kW or 50 kW 65 pence.

BP Pulse, 69 pence.  I have subscription.

MFG 75 pence. 

 

Then Ayrshire. 31 pence 7 / 11 kW AC or 50 kW 37 pence.   Minimum £5.00   That is mental if you really just want 10 kWh say or only have time to just get a top up and go.

The other options are 55 pence, 69 pence or 75 pence commercial chargers.

Then Stirling Council, 59 pence a kWh rapid or 45 pence 7 / 11 kW.  £2.00 minimum charge.

Perth & Kinross Council 35 pence. 

 

55 pence a kWh for 50 kWh £27.50

69 pence a kWh for 50 kWh £34.50         If you get 3.5 miles a kWh then 175 miles.  4 miles a kWh 200 miles. 

75 pence a kWh for 50 kWh £37.50

 

143.7 a litre, A gallon of petrol £6.53.  x 4 = £26.12

153.7 a litre, A gallon of diesel £6.98   x 4 = £27.94  

 

Plenty miles worth of Cheap rate home or work or free charging needed to make private users have the BEV as an economic choice.

Public charging at even the average price is just not good for your pocket.

 

Perth & Kinross Council rapid chargers IF YOU GET A WORKING ONE @ 35 pence a kWh.

50 kWh = £17.50

Get 4 miles a kWh so 200 miles and that is fine.  that is while the tariff stays like that.

Not when they get to the tariff neighbouring Dundee is which is 80 pence for the first kWh then 50 pence.

Or Angus Council 55 pence a kWh.

 

Tesla Superchargers for Tesla or Non-Tesla still going to be just below or above 50 pence a kWh where available.

 

Maybe relevant to those Hiring / borrowing BEV,s and just going about driving them and not near home / home chargers. 

Edited 20 April by Rooted

[lol-lol]

14 hours ago, Stonekeeper said:

 

Enjoy it whilst you can

 

There is no such thing as "free"

 

The state can try and charge as much as possible to keep the £25B revenue stream that it currently has from Excise duty on hydrocarbons plus the 20% VAT but the are other sources of electricity to charge EVs ie via home solar panels and home or public batteries that have charged up on cheaper overnight electricity.

 

Hydrocarbons are a much easier commodity to tax than lecky. In HMRC Excise on fuel is regarded as the most efficient tax to collect.

 

[Ootohere]

Business's are the ones that the HMRC need to pay more attention to and encourage them using Battery Electric Vehicles where suitable.

But not let them take the p1ss out of all others in the UK by them getting Premium or Luxury or inefficient vehicles with tax breaks just because someone fancies one.

 

Obviously if using as a Luxury Private hire, Taxi, Airport transport then they need that type of vehicle, but just not because Senior Management like them for their personal / business use.

[Winston_Woof]

27 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

 

The state can try and charge as much as possible to keep the £25B revenue stream that it currently has from Excise duty on hydrocarbons plus the 20% VAT but the are other sources of electricity to charge EVs ie via home solar panels and home or public batteries that have charged up on cheaper overnight electricity.

 

Hydrocarbons are a much easier commodity to tax than lecky. In HMRC Excise on fuel is regarded as the most efficient tax to collect.

 

All they need to do is introduce a mileage tax regardless of power train

[Ootohere]

 

 

Da da, a Business Accountant.

 

 

Edited 20 April by Rooted

[lol-lol]

2 hours ago, Winston_Woof said:

All they need to do is introduce a mileage tax regardless of power train

 

How could that work ?

 

Drivers would do even more of not driving on motorways but driving though leafy conservative voting Cotswold villages and the like.   

 

Not far from me if the M6 toll motorway and millions of journeys per year choose to take the non Toll M6, polluting Birmingham, all to save a few quid.

 

But toll roads is the only system I know is widely used to catch all drivers.

 

How do you see a mileage tax working ?

 

 

[Winston_Woof]

8 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

 

How could that work ?

 

Drivers would do even more of not driving on motorways but driving though leafy conservative voting Cotswold villages and the like.   

 

Not far from me if the M6 toll motorway and millions of journeys per year choose to take the non Toll M6, polluting Birmingham, all to save a few quid.

 

But toll roads is the only system I know is widely used to catch all drivers.

 

How do you see a mileage tax working ?

 

 

Charge Car owners say 9.68p per mile 

Either have a big brother phone home tracking system mandated or  legislate cars go in annually to a certified location (such as an MOT station)  have mileage checked/verified.

Increase the fines for clocking and also increase the diligence of checking for clocking at the annual check (which would be a general benefit) 

Why 9.68p per mile?

That's from some creative  back of the fag packet maths based on a car doing 40mpg

NB this would be to replace Fuel Duty not to supplement it and then apply to all vehicles including EVs


 

Edited 20 April by Winston_Woof

[Winston_Woof]

6 minutes ago, Winston_Woof said:

Charge Car owners say 9.68p per mile 

Either have a big brother phone home tracking system mandated or  legislate cars go in annually to a certified location (such as an MOT station)  have mileage checked/verified.

Increase the fines for clocking and also increase the diligence of checking for clocking at the annual check (which would be a general benefit) 

Why 9.68p per mile?

That's from some creative  back of the fag packet maths based on a car doing 40mpg

NB this would be to replace Fuel Duty not to supplement it and then apply to all vehicles including EVs


 

Updated fag packet maths (NB would also make Petrol at the pump VAT free in my scenario)

Edited 20 April by Winston_Woof

[Winston_Woof]

NB I appreciate people wouldn't want a £1k bill at the end of the year so I would further propose a monthly payment sytem be available where you pay an amount per month based on your enticipated mileage , say £80per month, realistically you're already paying that at the pump depending on your mileage) where at the end of the year any excess is either refunded or "credited/rolled over" to the next year

Edited 20 April by Winston_Woof

[lol-lol]

12 minutes ago, Winston_Woof said:

Charge Car owners say 9.68p per mile 

Either have a big brother phone home tracking system mandated or  legislate cars go in annually to a certified location (such as an MOT station)  have mileage checked/verified.
Increase the fines for clocking and also increase the diligence of checking for clocking at the annual check (which would be a general benefit)  Why 9.68p per mile?
That's from some creative  back of the fag packet maths based on a car doing 40 mpg   NB this would be to replace Fuel Duty not to supplement it and then apply to all vehicles including EVs

 

 

I definitely would do less motorway journeys and do more short cuts across countryside, even park up my EV more and use my MHEV for which I have a fuel card.

All bad for air quality and the move to lower emission vehicles.

 

UK Gov would have to review the 45p per mile, fist 10k miles, and 25p after that as both public and private workers would do even more of refusing to use their cars for their employers and to take the public transport options which has a profound effect on operational efficiency.

 

I think the UK government will be scarred to do this and it is 99% certain, it is reported, to be a Labour Government from a few months time and then for the next 5 years and I wonder what their policy and legislation will be.      

 

[Winston_Woof]

it was a "solution" to the question that was posed " how to recover the lost revenue  from taxes placed on hydrocarbon based fuels if people start charging EVs at home"

Take out any pseudo green impact etc, lets bear in mind that if it wasn't for legislation it's doubtful (IMHO) that EVs would naturally replace  fossil fuel powered vehicles any time soon.

What real advantage do they give to a user? 

They are (relatively) slow to charge, the charging infrastructure is a bit "meh". SUre they can be powerful & torquey but....

 

[skomaz]

5 hours ago, lol-lol said:

 

I definitely would do less motorway journeys and do more short cuts across countryside, even park up my EV more and use my MHEV for which I have a fuel card.

All bad for air quality and the move to lower emission vehicles.

 

UK Gov would have to review the 45p per mile, fist 10k miles, and 25p after that as both public and private workers would do even more of refusing to use their cars for their employers and to take the public transport options which has a profound effect on operational efficiency.

 

I think the UK government will be scarred to do this and it is 99% certain, it is reported, to be a Labour Government from a few months time and then for the next 5 years and I wonder what their policy and legislation will be.      

 

 

Why are you talking only about motorways?  @Winston_Woof was suggesting charging for ALL mileage regardless of road type... 

 

Also the Govt and local councils mostly want people out of cars and onto public transport...   Even if it doesn't work for many people

 

And finally you wod be amazed at how easy it is to track vehicle mileage these days using Bluetooth or sim card data, or even ANPR that is pretty much everywhere these days...   The infrastructure is already there covering the whole country...   We use it at work all the time in strategic transport models...   So @Winston_Wolf's suggestion could be implemented without much need for additional technology to charge such as that used on toll roads.  Basically there would be very little way of avoiding it...   Even on country roads in the cotswolds. 

Edited 20 April by skomaz

[Ootohere]

The whole country of England is that? 

 

House of commons this week Rural Mobile coverage in the UK: Not-spots and partial Not-Spots.     Google that.

Or the reports on EV charger issues and Sim Cards and mobile connections, RIFD or Contactless. 

 

Then If only ANPR was everyplace these days, or good Digital Services, radio reception etc.

But it might be in much of England.  London might be going G5 as parts of the UK have not got G4 yet. 

 

So anyway.  Sim cards issued to Business Users for their vehicles is a simple starter for 10, 

then Bar Codes Issued,  from Insurers, or with MOT,s or put on at a PDI and required to be read at fuel stations, charger or whatever will do.

ANPR at bridges, tunnels and just various roadsides that are tied into HMRC & the Borders Agency etc will be fine.

 

Some is there and lots is not.   But then we still do not have compulsory ID cards in the UK but you need ID to go vote. 

They like taking back control, but it is a post code lottery. 

[Winston_Woof]

I'm all in favour of a National ID card.

But again it needn't be 100% technology based.

As stated one method is you pay monthly and have your mileage checked annually at a registered checking station and then adjustments made.

And I'm also suggesting this is for *all* road users regardless of vehicle type and not a Business only thing