Hi, just a couple of questions regarding my head gasket change complications. I'm seriously considering taking the garages to trading standards. I've paid over a grand in total and the cars still a mess.

 

1. I now understand that there should be absolutely no pressure in the cooling system when cold. So if I just started the car in the morning and then revved it after 30 seconds and the kseal foam in the header tank starts to bubble, am I right in thinking that it's the head gasket not right that's bubbling it?

 

2.  If the garage had flushed and refilled with fresh coolant after kseal, then the kseal foam should be gone by now. Which suggests it hasn't been done I'm guessing?

 

3. Is it illogical that a garage has no info on how a HG failed?

 

4. How is it possible to still have a head lift if the HG has been changed, head skimmed and PD150 bolts installed?

 

Thanks,

Tom Jones

1. There may be residual detergent in the cooling system causing the foaming.

 

2. See 1.

 

3. No, failure mode is usually bolt stretch.

 

4. The bolts were not installed correctly.

17 minutes ago, sepulchrave said:

1. There may be residual detergent in the cooling system causing the foaming.

 

2. See 1.

 

3. No, failure mode is usually bolt stretch.

 

4. The bolts were not installed correctly.

Thanks for clearing that up. How could they not be installed correctly? perhaps not tight enough? Also, if its not illogical for a garage not to know how a hg has failed, then may I ask how you know the main cause is bolt stretch?

 

Thanks

Edited 16 February, 20197 yr by Tomjones1995

2 hours ago, Tomjones1995 said:

Thanks for clearing that up. How could they not be installed correctly? perhaps not tight enough? Also, if its not illogical for a garage not to know how a hg has failed, then may I ask how you know the main cause is bolt stretch?

 

Thanks

 

Yes, not tight enough.

 

I know because I used to be a manager at an engineering firm which did head rebuilds and from eight years on these forums, the only other failure mode is from dramatic overheating which invariably results in a scrapped head casting.

Edited 16 February, 20197 yr by sepulchrave

17 minutes ago, sepulchrave said:

 

Yes, not tight enough.

 

I know because I used to be a manager at an engineering firm which did head rebuilds and from eight years on these forums, the only other failure mode is from dramatic overheating which invariably results in a scrapped head casting.

So should I take it back to them and tell them to tighten them up? Or will the hg of perished by now (3months)?

55 minutes ago, Tomjones1995 said:

So should I take it back to them and tell them to tighten them up? Or will the hg of perished by now (3months)?

 

It doesn't work like that, the bolts have to installed and angle tightened in the correct sequence, they take a set once installed and cannot generally be redone, I have done it once before on a 16V KR where it turned out the casting was cracked.

The head gasket is probably toast anyway if it's been leaking but you could try undoing all the bolts then redoing them all in the correct sequence and see if it seals up.

2 minutes ago, sepulchrave said:

 

It doesn't work like that, the bolts have to installed and angle tightened in the correct sequence, they take a set once installed and cannot generally be redone, I have done it once before on a 16V KR where it turned out the casting was cracked.

The head gasket is probably toast anyway if it's been leaking but you could try undoing all the bolts then redoing them all in the correct sequence and see if it seals up.

I'l mention it to them, if they refuse to try it then I'l take them to trading standards. Thanks for the info Sep

Am I right in thinking the torques for the head bolts is 40nm then 60nm plus two 90 degree turns? Also so I can tell the garage, why do they need to be in a specific sequence? Is it to stop the cylinder head from warping? I'm going there tomorrow afternoon to have it out with them and could do with some info to hit them with

9 minutes ago, Tomjones1995 said:

Am I right in thinking the torques for the head bolts is 40nm then 60nm plus two 90 degree turns? Also so I can tell the garage, why do they need to be in a specific sequence? Is it to stop the cylinder head from warping? I'm going there tomorrow afternoon to have it out with them and could do with some info to hit them with

 

Yes, yes and yes.

Just to be clear:

It is not possible for the cooling system to retain pressure when cold unless there is pressurised gas present.

It is not possible for pressurised gas to be present unless it is leaking through the casting or past the head gasket into the water jacket.

It is not possible for this to happen to a head gasket which has been correctly repaired using new parts on a head casting which has passed a pressure test and has been refaced.

There is no amount of nonsense the garage can tell you which will refute these extremely simple facts.

 

So if they did the job properly then this would not be happening.

Edited 17 February, 20197 yr by sepulchrave

I dont think that the OP has actually said that the system is pressurising when cold although he may be inferring such a situation, all he has spoken of is foaming of the coolant which you gave a valid explanation for.

 

Perhaps the OP can be more specific what if any problems he is suffering.

6 minutes ago, sepulchrave said:

It is not possible for pressurised gas to be present unless it is leaking through the casting or past the head gasket into the water jacket.

 

Or it is coming through at the EGR cooler; this has never been eliminated as a possibility, if I remember rightly. I think Tech1e suggested this should be checked by bypassing the cooler, and I think it is well worth doing for that reason alone.

27 minutes ago, Wino said:

Or it is coming through at the EGR cooler; this has never been eliminated as a possibility, if I remember rightly. I think Tech1e suggested this should be checked by bypassing the cooler, and I think it is well worth doing for that reason alone.

Agreed, will push for it to be blanked off tomorrow. I did mention it and he refused but not taking no for an answer this time. I'm guessing I can still lose coolant through the egr cooler? And I'm also guessing it's not an not fail to blank it off?

Edited 17 February, 20197 yr by Tomjones1995

41 minutes ago, sepulchrave said:

Just to be clear:

It is not possible for the cooling system to retain pressure when cold unless there is pressurised gas present.

It is not possible for pressurised gas to be present unless it is leaking through the casting or past the head gasket into the water jacket.

It is not possible for this to happen to a head gasket which has been correctly repaired using new parts on a head casting which has passed a pressure test and has been refaced.

There is no amount of nonsense the garage can tell you which will refute these extremely simple facts.

 

So if they did the job properly then this would not be happening.

Thanks for clarifying, I'l be sure to read these points out to them. And I'l blank the egr cooler off as well so long as its legal to eliminate that possibility and I'l return to them a week later if it's still pressurising in the mornings

Edited 17 February, 20197 yr by Tomjones1995

32 minutes ago, J.R. said:

I dont think that the OP has actually said that the system is pressurising when cold although he may be inferring such a situation, all he has spoken of is foaming of the coolant which you gave a valid explanation for.

 

Perhaps the OP can be more specific what if any problems he is suffering.

Thanks for replying. I actually made a very lengthy 7 page thread stretching from September last year highlighting in detail my concerns though it did start off as a topic on "Prestone top up" coolant. Link can be found here.. 

Thanks

4 minutes ago, Tomjones1995 said:

Agreed, will push for it to be blanked off tomorrow. I did mention it and he refused but not taking no for an answer this time. I'm guessing I can still lose coolant through the egr cooler? And I'm also guessing it's not an not fail to blank it off?

 

Bypassing the cooler is technically an MOT fail if it were noticed, as is any modification of any emissions related equipment. But you're only doing this temporarily, for a few days, to see if it makes any difference to your symptoms. If it doesn't ,put it back how it was, if it does, you've found a problem that needs fixing.

Of course it doesn't make quite as much sense to try this if a garage is doing the work and charging you big wads of cash for it; can you not try it yourself, or ask a friend who's 'handier' to help you?

It's impossible to imagine a scenario where exhaust gas could get into the coolant yet coolant not get out, so I don't believe it's a possibility in this case.

1 minute ago, Wino said:

 

Bypassing the cooler is technically an MOT fail if it were noticed, as is any modification of any emissions related equipment. But you're only doing this temporarily, for a few days, to see if it makes any difference to your symptoms. If it doesn't ,put it back how it was, if it does, you've found a problem that needs fixing.

Of course it doesn't make quite as much sense to try this if a garage is doing the work and charging you big wads of cash for it; can you not try it yourself, or ask a friend who's 'handier' to help you?

I don't feel very comfortable doing it myself to be honest and I don't have any mechanic friends. I did have a look under the bonnet using Tech1e's pictures as a reference but I wasn't confident enough to do it if I'm honest. Surely its only a 30 minute job at Best for a garage to disconnect a couple of coolant hoses?

4 minutes ago, sepulchrave said:

It's impossible to imagine a scenario where exhaust gas could get into the coolant yet coolant not get out, so I don't believe it's a possibility in this case.

I'm still losing coolant slowly though Sep so I can quiz and educate them on hg changes referencing all the info I've had from you guys and get them to blank the egr cooler off temporarily to rule it out

Just checked the bill for flushing the kseal out. "Antifreeze 1ltr" there's no way they flushed it with 1 litre. Isn't the full capacity about 5.6 litres or something? They must of just flushed the heater matrix and topped it up after with the 1ltr bottle

Its quite difficult to get the full capacity out, or indeed to flush the whole system effectively, as the thermostat has a habit of isolating the radiator circuit from the engine circuit. To do it properly you probably need to remove the thermostat temporarily and then re-fit after the flushing is complete. 

44 minutes ago, Wino said:

Its quite difficult to get the full capacity out, or indeed to flush the whole system effectively, as the thermostat has a habit of isolating the radiator circuit from the engine circuit. To do it properly you probably need to remove the thermostat temporarily and then re-fit after the flushing is complete. 

Oh right I see, but still something they should have done if I requested it though I would think. Thanks for the info Wino

1 hour ago, Tomjones1995 said:

Just checked the bill for flushing the kseal out. "Antifreeze 1ltr" there's no way they flushed it with 1 litre. Isn't the full capacity about 5.6 litres or something? They must of just flushed the heater matrix and topped it up after with the 1ltr bottle

It was a big mistake to use Kseal in the first place. The alluring song of BS marketing for snake oil products is still working I see... I would be very curious to see how efficient 1 l of antifreeze diluted with 4.6 l of distilled water was to clean  the sticky messy created by Kseal.

See here bad reviews and see also how Kseal has the nerve to recommend buying another bottle of their product if the first one created a big mess...

5 minutes ago, RicardoM said:

It was a big mistake to use Kseal in the first place. The alluring song of BS marketing for snake oil products is still working I see... I would be very curious to see how efficient 1 l of antifreeze diluted with 4.6 l of distilled water was to clean  the sticky messy created by Kseal.

See here bad reviews and see also how Kseal has the nerve to recommend buying another bottle of their product if the first one created a big mess...

Yeah I know that now, knew it before but the bloke wouldn't take no for an answer, just went on and on about how good it is and I don't need to be spending £100's on a new rad. But ultimately my mistake in the end, once I've sorted the pressure from the header tank in the mornings, Il flush it again

39 minutes ago, Tomjones1995 said:

Yeah I know that now, knew it before but the bloke wouldn't take no for an answer, just went on and on about how good it is and I don't need to be spending £100's on a new rad.

The correct answer to which is "It's my car. Now are you going to do what I want or am I going to go to another garage?"