Check your Haldex pump people...

[Rustynuts]

Been having ongoing issues with my new Yeti being 2 wheel drive rather than 4 wheel drive.

 

Edited to include further details. I've left the original post as was and added further edits as required to give correct information.

 

Yeti SEL 150 TDI (2015) bought from VHub in Tewksbury with full Skoda service history. Clearly not been subjected to any test or whatever to ensure the car was fit for purpose, but how the issue is addressed is more important I guess.

 

Decided it was time to have a look see why.

 

Gen 5 Haldex doesn't have a filter (according to Skoda) so their service regime for the Haldex unit is simply drain the oil and refil. Also, the Haldex pump is dumb (doesn't report to VCDS on a scan) so no fault codes will be present. Any issue with no rear wheel drive is simply put down as "Haldex checked and serviced, no fault found" because they're too dim to actually check if it physically works.

 

So, I set too last week with a set of ramps and tools, and dropped the pump off to check the gauze filter on the pump. This is what I found...

 

 

 

This was after I'd wiped it somewhat in holding it to remove from the pump body, but essentially it was fully clogged and had blocked the pump. What happens then is the pump is starved of oil and siezes as a result, meaning no drive to the rear wheels. So, on a vehicle with two Haldex services (one last year at 1000 miles previous to current mileage) the pump was shot due to clogging of the filter which doesn't exist.

 

Edit: It's now apparent that the pump hadn't siezed, but more likely that as a result of the blocked gauze filter it has shut down and gone into safe mode to protect the pump from oil starvation

 

It's currently booked into the local VW specialist for diagnosis and warranty repair. Curiously the first place I was instructed to take it to  (M-Tech in Darlington) asked "What's a Haldex?" when I called to book it in and give them the details of the problem, which didn't give me much confidence really. I was also told that I would be responsible for the diagnostics charge which I should claim back from the warranty company once I'd had the repair done. I went back through the warranty and asked for a different repair shop, and was given VASSTECH in Northallerton.  When I told the new place what the problem was the guy said "I'm not a betting man but I suspect it's the Haldex pump which has failed." That gave me some further confidence but having had dealings with the guy who owns and runs the place in a previous incarnation I wasn't holding out too much hope.

 

Edit: So, some days later I landed into VASSTECH to let them have a look. VCDS connected up and no fault found (obviously), so "What makes you think it's not working?" I explained why, and they agreed to pull it in for a few days (!!!) to see what they could find. It was booked in the next week.

 

They had the car for a morning and when I called they claimed it seemed to be okay and "What makes you think it's not working?" again. So I explained again and they agreed to put someone more experienced onto it for a better look (better than driving to the pie shop for dinner I suspect). When I called back again they'd had it on the ramp and claimed it was working. "It takes a while to cut in like it's supposed to, but it is actually working!" he said. I lost my head a bit and told nim what I thought.

Next day I went and picked it up, paid for an hours diagnostics, and drove off in a still 2 wheel drive Yeti.

 

I emailed VHub and told them I was unhappy with the warranty which essentially seemed worthless as they can only authorise a repair if someone can find a fault. If the dumbass mechanics say they can find no fault then that in effect is where it all stops as far as warranty is concerned. Graham at VHub sugested I took the car back down to them for a few days and they'd strip the pump and controller out and clean them. He also mentioned that he was aware the warranty was running out and he was keen to get it sorted before this happened. I wasn't convinced this was a warranty issue, but a clear defect which should've been repaired prior to selling the car. And not sure how they were intending cleaning the Haldex controller, but I guess anything's possible if you're daft enough, eh. But I wasn't up for a thousand miles round trip to return it to them for the "There's nothing wrong with it" scenario again, so I asked my local garage if they had any experience with them. The owner said straight off that he wouldn't touch it, but suggested C & S Gearbox Repairs in Stockton as someone who could probably help. I spoke to Steve at C & S who told me I did indeed have a filter on the Gen 5 Unit, and the Gen 6 and Gen 7 also have filters as he buys loads of them. That didn't end well either to be honest. In the end he said "I hope you get it fixed then!" and put the phone down. I'll drop him a line when Borg Warner start producing a Gen 6 or 7 Haldex unit.

Eventually I spoke to Matt at Haldex Repairs who sent me a replacement controller up free of charge to try. That didn't work, but proved a point. So then we started some diagnostics and tried a few things out. Eventually we landed at the correct procedure to cure the fault.

 

The fix was (using VCDS of course)

Start the engine.

1. Open Controller 22 - AWD
2. Open Basic Settings - 04
3. In Basic Settings use the drop down selection box to select "MAS02928 - Pump Motor"
4. Hit "Go" and let it run. Took a minute or so, during which time I could hear the Haldex pump cycling up and down and relearning its function.

After a while the Pump Basic Setting function "Finished Correctly", and everything started to work properly.

 

 

 

In a nutshell. Vhub sold me a car which didn't work, then presumed I'd simply use the warranty to fix it.  M-Tech didn't know what I was talking about. VASSTECH had no idea what to do or how to diagnose the fault. C&S Gearboxes clearly have little idea about Gen 5 Haldex repairs. Matt at Haldex Repairs is a real good guy.

 

So, this weekend I'll be under the Tiguan and removing the pump from that to clean the filter which doesn't exist.

Edited 10 April, 2019 by Rustynuts

[ejstubbs]

3 hours ago, Rustynuts said:

the Haldex pump is dumb (doesn't report to VCDS on a scan) so no fault codes will be present.

 

Are you sure?  The Haldex pump was definitely generating error codes on my 2010 Yeti before I got it replaced: "All-wheel-drive system 00448 Haldex Clutch Pump (V181)" - picked up by both Torque and Carista.  My understanding is that it's generated during the ignition-on startup checks, when the pump won't spin up.  Come to think, the error code could be thrown by something else monitoring the current through the pump, rather than the pump itself.

 

Then again, doesn't the pre-facelift Yeti have Gen 4 Haldex?  (I get very confused by the recurring debates on that subject on this forum.)  If so then maybe that could explain why I was getting error codes and you weren't?

 

There are numerous threads about choked Haldex clutch pump filters on this forum (eg here and here - ah, it appears that it was me that started that second one!) and elsewhere.

[Rustynuts]

Yep, early gen Haldex had a different setup (includng a replaceable filter on service). Mine's a Gen 5 while my last Yeti (2009) was Gen 4

Edited 26 February, 2019 by Rustynuts

[penguin17]

I was speaking to an indy specialist before Christmas and he'd been doing quite a lot of Haldex maintenance on Golf R's recently, after a spate of owners were concerned that local VW dealers were telling them that no filter maintenance was required.

 

@Rustynuts I'm not sure whereabouts you are in N. Yorks but I can thoroughly recommend North East Auto Tech: 

 

https://www.northeastautotech.com/

 

Andy (the owner) really knows his stuff and their pricing is fair and honest.  One of the good ones IME. 

[Rustynuts]

I have a new pump and fluid sitting here right now ready to do it myself if needs be, but as I have warranty on this I'm inclined to let someone else pay for it. If the warranty fails I'll use consumer rights to throw it back at the selling dealer, but I usually do my own maintenance.

Edited 26 February, 2019 by Rustynuts

[Ryeman]

Could it be that fixed price servicing has resulted in dealerships avoiding doing the more time consuming checks and preventative maintenance, such as the Haldex definitely should have, but which doesn’t guarantee to generate an expensive ‘consumable’ such as a filter etc?.

 

[Yety]

The Gen 4 had two filters, one a replaceable one (I use a Volvo one), and the second was a plastic gauze on the suction side of the pump.

 

When Haldex was bought out by Borg Warner and introduced Gen 5, in typical American fashion they rationalised the parts in what I guess must be a cost saving exercise by removing the replaceable filter. They also altered the hydraulics by removing the accumulator, again more money saved. The accumulator basically stores hydraulic fluid under working pressure, aided by a big spring and piston, until needed and saves the pump running continuously. The Gen 5 needs to run the pump more to have full hydraulic pressure constantly available, which it seems to lead to more crud and fluid degradation blocking the only filter in the system, ie the tiny one on the pump suction. Good in the short term, but must surely lead to an earlier "sealed for life" end point.

 

A dealer Haldex service is only a fluid change, that's it. My local dealer can't understand why I buy a Volvo filter, and Haldex oil and do it myself. I also built a harness extension with OEM VAG plug and socket as the existing loom is so tight you have partially lower the rear subframe in order to pop out the plastic harness clips from the Haldex body, as the harness runs over the top of the Haldex very close to the bodywork to make access difficult. 

 

A Haldex Gen 5 is basically a cut back Gen 4, but otherwise very similar in build and electronic control, but with the niceties of the Gen 4 removed.

[mac26]

I’ll second that lot!

Bought my 4x4 Yeti last month and having read up on the haldex system and the main dealer claiming they’d service it.

i thought I’d check it out myself- the oil had been changed but the pump housing was chocked with sludge.  The car only had 36k on the clock too, I’m just glad I did this myself.

 

On another note I am sure vag group incompetance with service items is a scam to make stuff fail, then lead to big repair bills.

I’ve got a mk2 fabia vrs and when enquiring with a main dealer as to what their service interval was for the fuel filter- the service staff couldn’t understand why I asked them ‘are you for real’ when they told me it was a ‘lifetime’ filter!!!  

 

That along with haldex service incompetence smacks of wanting things to fail on purpose.

It’s a good job I don’t believe a thing that the main stealers says.

 

Anyway, if you guys are handy with a spanner and have a 4x4 yeti/haldex motor- check the pump filter/housing before it gets expensive!

[Trevor M]

May I ask a question to 'Yety' please. I am about to replace my Haldex 4 pump as it is giving an 'open circuit' error code, but runs ok after tapping the pump. I understand what you are saying re. the wiring harness being tight and would like to do as you have and create a connector to make the job easier. Do you have the part number(s) for the plug and socket you used, and where you obtained them from please? Thanks in advance. 

Trevor M.

[kenfowler3966]

1 hour ago, mac26 said:

I’ll second that lot!

Bought my 4x4 Yeti last month and having read up on the haldex system and the main dealer claiming they’d service it.

i thought I’d check it out myself- the oil had been changed but the pump housing was chocked with sludge.  The car only had 36k on the clock too, I’m just glad I did this myself.

 

On another note I am sure vag group incompetance with service items is a scam to make stuff fail, then lead to big repair bills.

I’ve got a mk2 fabia vrs and when enquiring with a main dealer as to what their service interval was for the fuel filter- the service staff couldn’t understand why I asked them ‘are you for real’ when they told me it was a ‘lifetime’ filter!!!  

 

That along with haldex service incompetence smacks of wanting things to fail on purpose.

It’s a good job I don’t believe a thing that the main stealers says.

 

Anyway, if you guys are handy with a spanner and have a 4x4 yeti/haldex motor- check the pump filter/housing before it gets expensive!

 

How easy is this part to access?  A quick guide on how to do this and what oil to refill with, and how much is needed, would be appreciated by many I am sure. I have seen a guide on how to service the Gen 4 haldex, but not the latest one like this.

Does this part just unbolt and pull out, as I see it has oil seals arounf the shaft, or does the unit have to be dismanteled to access it. I have seen horror stories of undoing the wrong drain plug and draining the differential by mistake? Mine will be due for its first service in June, tempted to get the garage to do it for the service record, then take it apart and clean the filter myself afterwards.

Edited 28 February, 2019 by kenfowler3966

[Urrell]

14 minutes ago, kenfowler3966 said:

How easy is this part to access?  A quick guide on how to do this and what oil to refill with, and how much is needed, would be appreciated by many I am sure. I have seen a guide on how to service the Gen 4 haldex, but not the latest one like this.

 

Is it the same as this?

 

 

[kenfowler3966]

That looks very easy to do and there is no excuse for Skoda not to do that as part of the service.

Bit worrying though that he thinks the oil needs changing every 20k miles, I have already done 24k. I know mine is still working fine though at the moment.

He had the car up on ramps at the rear, whereas a garage would use a lift. That may mean he has overfilled the unit slightly as the oil filler higher relatively tan it should be.

 

I have not had a good look under my car yet; Does anyone know if part of the off road kit, which my car has, needs to be removed to access the Haldex?

 

 

 

[Rooted]

No excuse.  Give them £69 or so and they will do it. Correctly you hope.

(The car manufacturers guidelines 'skoda/vw' is 3 years / 30,000 mile or sooner.)

Pay £54 and they will do the Brake Fluid, £179 & the DSG Oil change on those that need that.

Oil & Filter and inspection services are priced as to what they include or might include.  Like the basic stuff.

Plenty cars have no Haldex or a DSG. 

Edited 28 February, 2019 by Skoffski

[SuperbTWM]

Am I missing something? Surely Skoda cannot be blamed for a poor design of the Haldex coupling, its design and maintenance schedule has nothing to do with Skoda.

[Yety]

37 minutes ago, SuperbTWM said:

Am I missing something? Surely Skoda cannot be blamed for a poor design of the Haldex coupling, its design and maintenance schedule has nothing to do with Skoda.

 

Possibly. Haldex units are bought in, used on JLR, Fiat Pandas/ VAG, Volvo, Ford and others. Each one is tailored to each application in slight changes to main casting dimensions etc to meet makers specification.

 

How they are maintained in practice is up to each individual vehicle maker - Volvo, for example, think it wise to change filters as they can be bought at any Volvo dealership - I'm sure each car marque has it's own service regime. VAG and Skoda must think it's "simply clever" to have "sealed for life" policy.

 

I don't have a problem with any of this, but you do have to be aware at the outset - how many people these days are mechanically savvy?

 

As an aside, some pumps are easier to remove than others, much depends on the wiring loom constraints in order to get enough slack to remove the pump cleanly.

[SuperbTWM]

1 minute ago, Yety said:

 

How they are maintained in practice is up to each individual vehicle maker

 

 

 

This is my point, how can Skoda do anything more to prevent this issue. There is no replaceable filter cartridge like they used to be that would no doubt stop the strainer getting blocked,  I'm pretty sure it wasn't VAG that decided it shouldn't have one, it would of been Haldex themselves surely.

 

When they did have a filter element it was on the service schedule, just like an oil change is.

 

The only thing I think Skoda need to do at this point is recognize that the strainer needs cleaning and make this part of the Haldex service.

[Rooted]

The issue is Skoda / VW and Dealerships and Service Desk staff / Service Desk Managers and even Master Techs.

 

Some owners / drivers were told 4 year / 40,000 mile service intervals, some 3 years / 30,000 miles, some 20,000 miles and some are told nothing.

Told the A/C needs serviced bi-annually though or the brake discs are 80% worn.

[kenfowler3966]

1 hour ago, SuperbTWM said:

 

This is my point, how can Skoda do anything more to prevent this issue. There is no replaceable filter cartridge like they used to be that would no doubt stop the strainer getting blocked,  I'm pretty sure it wasn't VAG that decided it shouldn't have one, it would of been Haldex themselves surely.

 

When they did have a filter element it was on the service schedule, just like an oil change is.

 

The only thing I think Skoda need to do at this point is recognize that the strainer needs cleaning and make this part of the Haldex service.

Well as they refused to accept it had a filter to change, and would only do an oil change, it is not likely that they are going to dismantle to current gen 5 one either; they will just continue changing oil which then can't get around due to the blocked filter.

 

I think I will be servicing mine myself once out of warranty.

 

As said above most will have lasted the three year warranty period and then they can make a nice income changing prematurely failed pumps later. Many cars will have done less than 30k in 3 years!

[Rooted]

Which is why if you read the Manufacturers Warranty they say 'Manufacturers Guidelines'  & not Manufacturers Service Schedule.

 

Guidelines to maximum times / miles.

VW, SEAT & Skoda might and do have different from Audi for some service / consumable items, same parts, different vehicles.

 

Full Main Dealer Service History or serviced to a 'Service Plan' or Ex Fleet / Management cars do not even mean they are 'Serviced to Manufacturers Guidelines',

certainly not a guarantee of to a Manufacturers Schedule.

[Yety]

1 hour ago, SuperbTWM said:

 

This is my point, how can Skoda do anything more to prevent this issue. There is no replaceable filter cartridge like they used to be that would no doubt stop the strainer getting blocked,  I'm pretty sure it wasn't VAG that decided it shouldn't have one, it would of been Haldex themselves surely.

 

When they did have a filter element it was on the service schedule, just like an oil change is.

 

The only thing I think Skoda need to do at this point is recognize that the strainer needs cleaning and make this part of the Haldex service.

 

Skoda could have specified anything they wanted in their service schedule. Gen 5 was Borg Warner's "improvement" on Gen 4 - at many less parts, possibly cheaper?

 

The filter on Gen 4 held a  lot of debris, but the pump strainer still held a load of crud. When Gen 4 did have a filter, Skoda must have decided not to replace it at service intervals as VAG have no part number for it - go figure. All we got from Skoda was a vague Haldex fluid change schedule, which seemed to changed from dealer to dealer/ handbook as to frequency.

 

My local dealer knows I change the filter from minor oil stains, and the Tech reports that "someone" has changed the filter - that must be me then! My local dealer knows it has one because I've shown them a Volvo one.

I've had the car for 7 years now from new, and find that at 95k it is worth changing the filter cassette every two years, and cleaning the pump. Loosen the screws on the filter hatch and briefly start the engine and the filter will pop up under hydraulic pressure restrained by the hatch screws. Likewise, I have a spare pump and extended harness to speed up the operation. My "old" pump is still fine after a quick filter clean and brush gear check, ready for next change. My Haldex is quite busy as I spend a lot of time on gravel roads.

 

Yes, you are right - VAG could "service" the pump on Gen 5 - but they don't. They don't service brakes properly too - just replace pads/discs - it's what dealers do.

 

 

Edited 28 February, 2019 by Yety

[Trevor M]

YETY: I am not sure if you have seen my question to you above, but could you please let me know the details of the parts you used to make your extended harness, as I am about to change my pump, and would like to do the same? So far I have not been able to find the plug / socket combination online. Many thanks.

Trevor M.

[SuperbTWM]

37 minutes ago, Yety said:

The filter on Gen 4 held a  lot of debris, but the pump strainer still held a load of crud. When Gen 4 did have a filter, Skoda must have decided not to replace it at service intervals as VAG have no part number for it - go figure. All we got from Skoda was a vague Haldex fluid change schedule, which seemed to changed from dealer to dealer/ handbook as to frequency.

 

I agree there was no excuse for this, Landrover did the same with the Freelander 2 though, when my Dad owned one he said there was no interval for the oil or the filter and was told it was 'sealed for life' by the dealer

[kenfowler3966]

Well it was sealed for life; a much shorter one than it could have had.

Other sealed for life components have been opened up and serviced when in Skoda’s interest, eg the dry clutch dsg oil replacement

[mac26]

9 hours ago, kenfowler3966 said:

How easy is this part to access?  A quick guide on how to do this and what oil to refill with, and how much is needed, would be appreciated by many I am sure. I have seen a guide on how to service the Gen 4 haldex, but not the latest one like this.

Does this part just unbolt and pull out, as I see it has oil seals arounf the shaft, or does the unit have to be dismanteled to access it. I have seen horror stories of undoing the wrong drain plug and draining the differential by mistake? Mine will be due for its first service in June, tempted to get the garage to do it for the service record, then take it apart and clean the filter myself afterwards.

 

Ken, it’s a nice and easy job- but I did have use of an inspection pit!

I watched a few YouTube videos of people doing the service on mk5 Golf R32 as they’re the same 4x4 system- some of the videos waffle on a bit, but they helped me.

 

 

 

I bought the oil and oil pump seals from my local TPS shop.  1x 850ml bottle and 2x rubber o-rings as well and 2x new pump bolts.

I buy an oil fill thingy from screwfix that helped with refilling it.

[kenfowler3966]

In the good old days the oil container had a screw on tube and you squeezed it to put the oil in gearbox, diff etc. Wouldn't need these fancy pumps or syringes.

 

Are the pump bolts not re-usable then? That is unusual unless damaged or stretch bolts?