On a recent drive with some exuberance along a fairly long, hilly, very twisting Northern A road I experienced some brake fade from my (presumably) OEM brakes on my 1.4TSI 150 estate (Unladen). I had been braking hard into bends, but releasing the brakes through and between bends. 

 

Inspecting the brakes afterwards, there was some visible blueing of the discs front and rear. 

 

In recent years I have driven cars (some bigger) with brakes that resisted fade well, and have always fitted Ferodo Premier pads when the OEM have worn out. I'm tempted to buy a set for the front. 

 

My Mk1 vRS brakes were far superior. 

 

Anybody experienced this with these cars? 

 

Ps. The car's handling isn't too bad on an exuberant drive, albeit less composed than my Mk4 Mondeo estate. The gap between 2nd and (very long) 3rd gear is too big for that kind of driving in that car, though. 

 

Edited 29 May, 20197 yr by MC Bodge

@MC Bodge

What age is the car and how many miles covered?

Checking the H20 content if any in the brake fluid would be in order, and maybe changing the fluid anyway if not already done.

1 minute ago, Skoffski said:

@MC Bodge

What age is the car and how many miles covered?

Checking the H20 content if any in the brake fluid would be in order, and maybe changing the fluid anyway if not already done.

Only 2.5 years, 35k miles. So not old and doesn't show signs of abuse. I've had it a couple of months. 

The first Brake Fluid change is due at 3 years by the Manufacturers Recommendations so maybe worth having done soon, 

and the MOT a month before due so that if there are any Warranty claims to be made on anything there is time before the warranty expires.

29 minutes ago, MC Bodge said:

I had been braking hard into bends, but releasing the brakes through and between bends. 

 

It depends on how often you do a long hard run with lots of braking and no cooling time between? Brakes on a 1.4, not designed to do the same job as a vRS, even an old one.

 

As above, better brake fluid will help, and if it is old with high water content it won't react well to heat. At 2.5 years I would have ATE 200 (old racing blue) in it if you drive like that often.

 

Hotter pads will help with the obvious drop in cold braking, but you can't outsmart physics and more metal with better heat capacity and cooling will be a benefit if you are seeing a limit

 

I guess you have 288f/255r mm brakes on that so a swap onto 312f/272r mm would be sensible without going OTT. Very easy bolt on. Big fan of 'if it ain't broke don't fix it' but if you are seeing a specific problem, sensible thing to fix it.

 

If you are going to change the brake fluid I would uprate to DOT 5.1 and fit stainless brake lines that can't stretch when pushed therefore resist fade when everything gets hot. Either HEL or Goodridge both good and have used both no brake fade even when used on track days. My current brakes standard 340mm front 310mm rear vented discs are mega.

Thanks for the replies, folks.

 

I am aware of methods to improve brakes: I have fitted braided lines and different pads to various motorbikes and mountain bikes. I've also used DOT 5.1 in mountain bikes, although I was told that DOT 5.1 needed replacing more often than DOT 4 and DOT 4 has always been fine in my cars and motorbikes.

 

I'm not looking for a track setup for my car. I was just wondering if other people had had similar experiences with their similar cars. I get fewer opportunities for solo, exuberant, hilly driving than I did in my vRS days, but I do like to seize the opportunities when they arise. 

 

The 1.4TSI 150 probably isn't far behind a standard Mk1 vRS  (I had mine remapped, which made it considerably quicker) in a straight line up to about 90mph.  The ride and handling are better than the old vRS and seem more suited to hard use than to bimbling around. The front end is quite planted and the initial turn-in is good (mid-bend steering feel can be a bit vague), although the chassis isn't up to Ford standards.

 

-The vRS had the same brakes as a Mk1 TT 225 IIRC. My previous Mondeo estate had quite powerful, fade-resistant brakes of the the same spec throughout the range, apparently.

 

It did strike me as I was pressing a spongy pedal towards the carpet that cars like mine (or any cars!) were probably rarely driven like mine was being.

 

I think I'll swap the pads for some Ferodo Premier, as they are not that expensive and easy enough to change. Those pads even worked well on the tiny brakes on my Wife's Mk1 Fabia.

 

Bigger discs, although not difficult, is a modification.... 

 

 

 

 

Edited 29 May, 20197 yr by MC Bodge

49 minutes ago, shyVRS245 said:

If you are going to change the brake fluid I would uprate to DOT 5.1

 

Dot 5.1 is not always an upgrade on Dot 4. Some of the best fluids are Dot 4 for good reason

 

The low temperature requirement for dot 5.1 certification often compromises the hot performance. 'Jack of all trades' etc. The best fluid for hot brakes cannot achieve the performance for the extreme cold requirement of Dot 5.1. ATE "racing blue" and SL6 are Dot 4 for this reason.

 

Unless you have requirement for extreme cold use then better sticking to a recognised good make of Dot 4

Edited 29 May, 20197 yr by flybynite

7 minutes ago, flybynite said:

 

Dot 5.1 is not always an upgrade on Dot 4. Some of the best fluids are Dot 4 for good reason

 

The low temperature requirement for dot 5.1 certification often compromises the hot performance. 'Jack of all trades' etc. The best fluid for hot brakes cannot achieve the performance for the extreme cold requirement of Dot 5.1. ATE "racing blue" and SL6 are Dot 4 for this reason.

 

Unless you have requirement for extreme cold use then better sticking to a recognised good make of Dot 4

I might try some of the Racing Blue. 

37 minutes ago, MC Bodge said:

I might try some of the Racing Blue. 

 

It is called "Type 200" now, same stuff but thanks to EU & US regulations they can't colour it blue any more. I use it in everything.

Edited 29 May, 20197 yr by flybynite

11 minutes ago, flybynite said:

 

It is called "Type 200" now, same stuff but thanks to EU & US regulations they can't colour it blue any more. I use it in everything.

Good info. Thanks. 

 

I'll measure the brake discs at some point.

Oh yeah, changed the pads & fluid on my old 1.4tsi (tweaked to just north of 200bhp) can't remember the fluid but, I had EBC Red Stuff pads. Better braking & way less fade

14 hours ago, MC Bodge said:

My Mk1 vRS brakes were far superior. 

Mk1 is probably a fair bit lighter than a mk3. Also its a sports variant so probably had better brakes than your mk3 1.4 has. 

9 minutes ago, ian_feel_keepin_it_reel said:

Mk1 is probably a fair bit lighter than a mk3. Also its a sports variant so probably had better brakes than your mk3 1.4 has. 

A quick look on Parkers and I'm mistaken. A Mk1 vRS is 100Kg heavier than a mk3 estate. 

9 minutes ago, ian_feel_keepin_it_reel said:

A quick look on Parkers and I'm mistaken. A Mk1 vRS is 100Kg heavier than a mk3 estate. 

My 2003 Leon Cupra with 17" alloys was 1,308kg with hardly any toys whereas my 2017 Vrs245 has more toys than Santa can get on his sleigh and it still only weighs 1,370kg.

12 minutes ago, ian_feel_keepin_it_reel said:

Mk1 is probably a fair bit lighter than a mk3. Also its a sports variant so probably had better brakes than your mk3 1.4 has. 

 

2 minutes ago, ian_feel_keepin_it_reel said:

A quick look on Parkers and I'm mistaken. A Mk1 vRS is 100Kg heavier than a mk3 estate. 

 

I thought the MK1 would be lighter too until I looked it up a while ago, it did have better brakes though. All depends what is in the boot of the estate as it swallows stuff quite well.

 

A really good option for those happy to go non-oem is the "NQSBBK" A good match for a light engine like the 1.4, firm but progressive, just like a brake should be. Downside is (like all 4-pot brakes) it doesn't fit under most Skoda wheels without spacers.

Well, unlike all the people who've said "Brake fade - old fluid - Elebeetee!", I actually read @MC Bodge's OP, and if the discs are blueing then you really do have brake fade, and IMO it's caused by the discs overheating rather than just the pads and/or fluid boiling.  (using training in metallurgy to identify the over-heating symptom of a colour change on the discs)

5 minutes ago, KenONeill said:

Well, unlike all the people who've said "Brake fade - old fluid - Elebeetee!", I actually read @MC Bodge's OP, and if the discs are blueing then you really do have brake fade, and IMO it's caused by the discs overheating rather than just the pads and/or fluid boiling.  (using training in metallurgy to identify the over-heating symptom of a colour change on the discs)

 

Which is why I (like others) suggested pads and a bit more metal, if your disks are overheating, pads can only do so much. However if you read all the OP's posts .........

 

14 hours ago, MC Bodge said:

It did strike me as I was pressing a spongy pedal towards the carpet

 

If you are turning your disks blue, you WILL be putting lots of heat into the fluid. Cheap fluid at the end of its life will only result in one thing.

 

 

10 minutes ago, flybynite said:

 

Which is why I (like others) suggested pads and a bit more metal, if your disks are overheating, pads can only do so much. However if you read all the OP's posts .........

 

 

If you are turning your disks blue, you WILL be putting lots of heat into the fluid. Cheap fluid at the end of its life will only result in one thing.

 

 

Yes the sweaty bum moment.

Can be only a residue of overheated pads.

 

Give them a few more tens of miles and a few harder breakings, maybe it is not permanent. 

21 hours ago, MC Bodge said:

On a recent drive with some exuberance along a fairly long, hilly, very twisting Northern A road I experienced some brake fade from my (presumably) OEM brakes on my 1.4TSI 150 estate (Unladen). I had been braking hard into bends, but releasing the brakes through and between bends. 

 

Inspecting the brakes afterwards, there was some visible blueing of the discs front and rear. 

 

In recent years I have driven cars (some bigger) with brakes that resisted fade well, and have always fitted Ferodo Premier pads when the OEM have worn out. I'm tempted to buy a set for the front. 

 

My Mk1 vRS brakes were far superior. 

 

Anybody experienced this with these cars? 

 

Ps. The car's handling isn't too bad on an exuberant drive, albeit less composed than my Mk4 Mondeo estate. The gap between 2nd and (very long) 3rd gear is too big for that kind of driving in that car, though. 

 

Personelly I'd take a look at race brakes. Something like ebc yellow stuff pads and groved discs all round. It'll help!

Also I'd get the brake fluid changed at the same time as the discs and pads.

2 hours ago, Stuart-h said:

Personelly I'd take a look at race brakes. Something like ebc yellow stuff pads and groved discs all round. It'll help!

 

Personally I find race brakes useless on the road for daily use. They are not as good as road brakes until they are up to temperature. Keeping heat in race pads on the road is a problem you don't need. Grooves just generate noise and dust and leave less surface for braking. Road brakes for road, race brakes for track.

 

I have not yet found the limit of ATE road pads and plain ATE or Brembo disks. Cheap, quiet, and full braking from cold. 

 

New fluid, cleaning disks and re-dressing pads can make the world of difference without changing the brakes at all.

 

6 hours ago, nidza said:

Can be only a residue of overheated pads.

 

Agreed, they won't have got to 8,000 Kelvin to glow blue and still be round in shape. It is something left behind by the cooking process.

 

Thanks chaps.

 

Im away at the moment, but I will give the brakes a good looking at when I get back. 

I see no reason not to fit some better pads 

 

Ive not experienced this sort of fade in a car in recent years on decent pads.

 

I had assumed that the blueing was a result of pad burning, rather than disc heat, although the brakes didn't smell whilst I was driving. 

 

 

I'm currently in posession of a rental Seat Arona. The brakes are very sharp to a pedal press in a way that my Octavia isn't. In fact, my Octavia brakes are not sharp at all compared with most modern cars I've driven. Maybe new fluid would be a good idea. 

 

Ps. Whilst the Arona boot is deep with the shelf taken out and it is easy to see out of, the handling is boat-like. I wouldn't buy one. 

Edited 30 May, 20197 yr by MC Bodge

I am not impressed with my Octavia brakes, have new discs, pads, backplates and today fitted new rear calipers, the pedal is reasonably firm and the initial bite is reassuring but the progressive braking to a halt at say a junction seems to take more and more pressure for the same retardation, that is to say that its not progresssive and this is in normal bimbling around.

 

The discs do seem to show the heat, they are not blue but there is a definite haze, still fairly matt and not shiny so not glazed, pads definitely not glazed.

 

Its as if after the initial bite the heat is causing a loss of friction coefficient.

 

In testing full on emergency stops the ABS does its stuff but after one or two there is not enough friction to lock the wheels, pedal was getting spongy, a lot better nos the fluid is changed but the basic heat/friction issue is unchanged, the braking under extreme tests is no better really, just a firmer pedal.

 

I think they are crappy pads that came with the discs from one of the Autodoc group EU suppliers.

 

Any suggestions for pads? Dont need anything extreme, I would just like a constant friction coefficient after the initial bite.

 

Discs have done less than 8K miles and are unmarked.

1 minute ago, J.R. said:

I am not impressed with my Octavia brakes, have new discs, pads, backplates and today fitted new rear calipers, the pedal is reasonably firm and the initial bite is reassuring but the progressive braking to a halt at say a junction seems to take more and more pressure for the same retardation, that is to say that its not progresssive and this is in normal bimbling around.

 

The discs do seem to show the heat, they are not blue but there is a definite haze, still fairly matt and not shiny so not glazed, pads definitely not glazed.

 

Its as if after the initial bite the heat is causing a loss of friction coefficient.

 

In testing full on emergency stops the ABS does its stuff but after one or two there is not enough friction to lock the wheels, pedal was getting spongy, a lot better nos the fluid is changed but the basic heat/friction issue is unchanged, the braking under extreme tests is no better really, just a firmer pedal.

 

I think they are crappy pads that came with the discs from one of the Autodoc group EU suppliers.

 

Any suggestions for pads? Dont need anything extreme, I would just like a constant friction coefficient after the initial bite.

 

Discs have done less than 8K miles and are unmarked.

I've used Ferodo Premier on various cars. They bed in quickly and work at all temperatures on the road. They are also quire cheap. 

 

I'm intending to fit some to my car. The existing OEM pads must be quite poor