Skoda Octavia low coolant warning and large repair bill

[oldgroaner]

My 2015 2.0TDI 150 PS DSG had the light for low coolant come on so I booked it in with the main dealer. It is second hand and two months out of the guarantee .

Later that day they rang me to say the problem was that the heater matrix was blocked and the bill would be over £1300 pounds, but as a goodwill gesture they would deduct 45%

Bringing it down to £706.97.

My job before retirement being a company engineer responsible for field liability claims resolution, on pressuries boilers among other thinga, and  I pointed out the following

 

The heater matrix could only be blocked by either sand left over from the casting process, or corrosion products had excess flux been present in manufacture of a component such as the heater matrix and overcome the Inhibitor in the coolant causing corrosion and consequent particulate silt that blocked the Matrix

 

The coolant itself would not be replaced periodically at service intervals, but only when the Cam belt is changed either at five years or 140,000 miles, neither  of which has been reached

 

The inescapable conclusion therefore is that there was a latent manufacturing defect as the car left the Factory, and notwithstanding the Guarantee period has expired the liabilty under the law is with the manufacturer

 

I have been in contact with Skoda twice to register a complain, they responded today (the second time) not accepting liability but offering a goodwill free of charge major service.

I  responded "I can afford to pay for my car being serviced, thank you very much , but attempting to fob me off when under the law you have a clear liability to pay in full for this repair."

I also reminded them that this dealer has replaced SIX other heater matrixes that failed for the same reason, and that I found Fifteen other cases in the VW passat Forums.

I pointed out that this is very bad policy for a major company to refuse to accept not merely it's liabilty in a single instance, which is after all a mere pittance to them, but to try to pretend this is a one off problem

 

It makes you wonder, if this dealer has had six failures of this type, how many are there across the hundreds of dealerships across the UK, and how many people simply top up their coolant unaware of the sort of future bill they face?

I have a word of advice for anyone Owning one of the Skoda Octavias, especially if it is still under guarantee,

If the  coolant level falls below the minimum, check if your heater is still working, and or as in my case the car is slow to warm up if the heater is either not working or not very warm, insist that the dealer deals with the problem under guarantee. Don't just top up the coolant, it needs to be investigated while you can have it fixed at no charge to avoid being ripped off s I have been, and by the look of it a lot of other people too, many of whom will be unaware of this nasty shock they could face through no fault of their own.

Has anyone else been treated in so cavalier a fashion over a failure of this type due to a manufacturing defect?

I am simply not going to leave it at that, you can be sure!

Edited 19 June, 2019 by oldgroaner
after thought

[logiclee]

There is a silicon bag in the expansion tank that has been known to split and block the heater marix

[classic]

It’s an issue, (seemingly all tdi’s), I’ve read about before in the above link and other threads on this forum. I chipped in with my own 10 pence worth here and there.

I seem to recall there’s been others with problems that were diagnosed wrongly as heater matrix faults but turned out to be something else - water pump and/or some other heat exchanger.

The coolant system on these cars is ridiculously over complex. One of the threads had a link to the workshop manual or one of the VW self study guides detailing the coolant circuit and different components.

Edited 19 June, 2019 by classic

[oldgroaner]

Further to my post I have found this You tube video where a Mechanic changes a heater matrix in a  Mark 3 Octavia in less than an hour without any special tools and it is blocked with scale and corrosion products and what looks like rust

 

Replacing a Skoda Octavia Mk 3 heater Matrix with no special tools in less than an hour

 

I shall send this link to both the Main Dealer and Skoda UK

[classic]

37 minutes ago, oldgroaner said:

Further to my post I have found this You tube video where a Mechanic changes a heater matrix in a  Mark 3 Octavia in less than an hour without any special tools and it is blocked with scale and corrosion products and what looks like rust

 

Replacing a Skoda Octavia Mk 3 heater Matrix with no special tools in less than an hour

 

I shall send this link to both the Main Dealer and Skoda UK

 

£1300 for the dealer to do that !

[oldgroaner]

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Posted just now

I haven't even got started yet! I have been preparing further thoughts to add to my complaint as follows

 

Since it it as the video shows a simple job to remove and replace the heater matrix, the main cost of the repair has to be in the amount of cleaniing of the system by repeatedly flushing it, in my case I was told it would require seven times. Hence the cost in hours labour.

The question should be asked, it is all very well to have a complex and time consuming cleaning regime to deal with the problem, in fact the existence of such a scheme indicates clearly a problem  that is within the expectation of the designer to make such a provision necessary.

No one develops such a rigmarole if they have no expectation of needing it!

Let us consider that, and ask for you to guarantee not only that all the debri, sand, scale, and corrosive products have been removed from the cooling system, what steps have been taken to recondition  the area where these products were created despite the exotic coolant specified to prevent their formation?

Clearly the coolant has failed to do the job it was specified for and now it has a worse situation to deal with!

I am left with no logical reason not to expect a repeat failure of the matrix in the future as there is/are untreated corroded areas in the cooling system more advanced than the initial new condition of the whole system.

Are you prepared to guarantee the work carried out on your behalf and the materials used will ensure there is no repeat of this failure?

Failing that I am therefore asking you to   recall my car for replacement or reconditioning of all contaminated and corroded engine and cooling parts at no cost to me.

That is the minimum one should expect from a reputable company.

The cost of failure of this matrix shold be covered By Skoda UK,  six matrixes have been replaced for similar reasons by this dealership, presumably under warranty?

Edited 21 June, 2019 by oldgroaner
Spelling errrors!

[Guest]

Playing Devil's Advocate, there's a flaw in your initial assumption:

 

"The coolant itself would not be replaced periodically at service intervals, but only when the Cam belt is changed either at five years or 140,000 miles, neither  of which has been reached"

 

But you previously said you bought a used car therefore you have no way of telling if the coolant has been replaced. What if there had been some fault on the car prior to your ownership? What if the car was involved in an accident? Did the previous owner suffer coolant loss? Did they or the repaiere simply top up with off-the-self cheap-as-chips coolant  i.e. was the correct spec used?

 

All speculation of course but just wanted to point out it may not have been the original coolant as you've assumed. 

Edited 21 June, 2019 by Guest

[oldgroaner]

I have seen the full service history as the car was sold by the same main dealer, and the original owner had forgotten to hand in the owner's manual and it were  the initial and three annual service records. The dealer confirmed the owner had not made any complaints or noted any system lights coming on, with the single exception of the car signalling it needed a regen just as he was about to trade it in

This was done and confirmed by the main dealer two days before I took ownership'

There was no damage to the vehicle, it was immaculate.

The main dealer said that under the data protection act  the previous owner's service history  should not have come to me so  I surrendered them  to the main dealer. The car only  did 9770 miles in the first three years, on motability, the main dealer's staff did all maintenance. The owner hadn't made any complaints under guarantee. with the exception of the incident of the regen indicator coming on that single time.  There, can't get clearer than that.

 

The likelihood that a person who drove the car only 3000 miles a year would change the coolant when there are clear entries for annual services is too remote to "hold water"

To be honest the poor man is unlikely to have had the strength to open the the bonnet he was that frail!

Changes to  the coolant is extremely unlikely since  he is unlikely to have  encountered coolant loss under such driving cnditions  and he would certainly have taken it in for the dealer top up under guarantee,

And the mileage was acccording to the service records the same mileage each year.

And In the 37,863 miles i have done since taking ownership I have never done other than glance at the reservoir and the coolant level was within the min and max marks.

In point of fact I had two previous earlier Octavia TDI's the first one sold at 205,000 miles from new, and the second bought with 27, 000 miles on the clock and sold with 202.500 ,

From the same main dealer , who have full service records for them from new, and never had to add a single drop of coolant ever to any of them including the latest one till this incident

There is no way they can  make the argument someone changed the coolant stick.

There is a bigger probability of me winning the lottery than that!

Thank you for your input, it has made me address another possible way they might try to wriggle out of responsibility if any other thoughts o how they might wriggle occur to you, please  post them!

 

Edited 21 June, 2019 by oldgroaner
Additional info

[classic]

20 odd years ago, when I worked on engines, there were known issues with cylinder liner and heater core corrosion caused by electrolysis. It was more of a thing on industrial/hgv/rail diesel applications, but there were less diesel cars then.

 A loose earth or starter motor wire could cause corrosion in the cooling system by electrolysis.

Type “heater matrix electrolysis” into google.

[Jock]

I've just had to have my cooling system flushed, a new header tank and heater matrix on my MY16 Octavia Scout.  

 

The car has only done about 65K miles and when I asked the dealer why, they couldn't find a reason.  I first noticed the problem a few months ago - on a longish trip (>100 miles) and on motorway running, I'd have to top up the coolant, but on my normal weekly commute (50 miles per day), the level was stable.  It wasn't as if I was thrashing the car on the motorway, in fact I usually set cruise control to 70 and just sit there.

 

Credit to my local dealer though, they got 50% off the bill after negotiating with Skoda.

[oldgroaner]

The car is going back in today as the coolant level still falls by a couple of millimetres each day, and it now going to be pressure tested to see if my suggestion that there might be a case of the engine consuming the liquid through for instance the water cooled inercooler having a very slight leak that could be being inhaled into the engine without trace.

Now if they think I am going to pay any more out over this fault, they are in for a shock!

Let us hope for Skoda's sake they find it's simply a leak.

Wish them luck

[oldgroaner]

The car is going back in today as the coolant level still falls by a couple of millimetres each day, and it now going to be pressure tested to see if my suggestion that there might be a case of the engine consuming the liquid through for instance the water cooled inercooler having a very slight leak that could be being inhaled into the engine without trace.

Now if they think I am going to pay any more out over this fault, they are in for a shock!

Let us hope for Skoda's sake they find it's simply a leak.

Wish them luck

6 hours ago, Jock said:

I've just had to have my cooling system flushed, a new header tank and heater matrix on my MY16 Octavia Scout.  

 

The car has only done about 65K miles and when I asked the dealer why, they couldn't find a reason.  I first noticed the problem a few months ago - on a longish trip (>100 miles) and on motorway running, I'd have to top up the coolant, but on my normal weekly commute (50 miles per day), the level was stable.  It wasn't as if I was thrashing the car on the motorway, in fact I usually set cruise control to 70 and just sit there.

 

Credit to my local dealer though, they got 50% off the bill after negotiating with Skoda.

I think , like me they have pulled a fast one on you! ask them for the rest of the money to be paid back

[Jock]

Well, when I initially asked about the problem, they quoted me £1.2K so it was a relief to pay £600!

 

I've been suspicious of the heating since the end of last year because the passengers side of the windscreen used to clear quickly while the drivers side took ages and I don't know if I imagined it, but the humidity sometimes seemed high in the cockpit.  The dealer did suggest the intercooler could be the cause, but on e of the first things they did was a pressure test which was OK.  I regularly check oil and have never noticed any condensation symptoms to make me think water is getting into the sump.

 

They've given me a two year warranty on the cooling system as well, so I'm a little more relaxed doing motorway journeys again - I was getting nervous on motorway runs for a time.

 

Just noticed where you are @oldgroaner - looks like we may be using the same dealer!

[oldgroaner]

On 21/06/2019 at 21:37, classic said:

20 odd years ago, when I worked on engines, there were known issues with cylinder liner and heater core corrosion caused by electrolysis. It was more of a thing on industrial/hgv/rail diesel applications, but there were less diesel cars then.

 A loose earth or starter motor wire could cause corrosion in the cooling system by electrolysis.

Type “heater matrix electrolysis” into google.

Thank you I have printed that off, and already mentioned the possibility of corrosion, now I can add in electrolysis as well as a possibility

[oldgroaner]

1 minute ago, Jock said:

Well, when I initially asked about the problem, they quoted me £1.2K so it was a relief to pay £600!

 

I've been suspicious of the heating since the end of last year because the passengers side of the windscreen used to clear quickly while the drivers side took ages and I don't know if I imagined it, but the humidity sometimes seemed high in the cockpit.  The dealer did suggest the intercooler could be the cause, but on e of the first things they did was a pressure test which was OK.  I regularly check oil and have never noticed any condensation symptoms to make me think water is getting into the sump.

 

They've given me a two year warranty on the cooling system as well, so I'm a little more relaxed doing motorway journeys again - I was getting nervous on motorway runs for a time.

 

Just noticed where you are @oldgroaner - looks like we may be using the same dealer!

Goodness! now that is interesting! I wonder if any of the others having that problem at the same dealer are reading this thread?

[oldgroaner]

I took the car back yesterday as agreed as the coolant level was falling consistently by three or so mm each day, it has been extensively test by the main dealer at their expense, and all credit to them they have done everthing in their power to help.

However Skoda have dug their heels in, which is very sporting of them with a letter which contained this attempt to fob me off

"Your vehicle benefits from a Manufacturer's Warranty lasting up to three years or 60,000 miles whichever is sooner.

Should a fault occur on a vehicle once outside of the Manufacturer's Warranty,it falls to the vehicle owner to arrange any necessary repairs at their expense.

You mentioned during our discussions  that you feel that under the Sale of Goods Act SKODA UK is required to carry out the repair at no cost to you.

Please note that should you wish to proceed down that route any claim for breach of contract under the Sale of Goods Act would need to be with the party you purchased the vehicle from not Skoda UK.

 

It see in my old age I quoted the wrong act, the one I should have quoted was this one The Consumer protection Act 1987 under EU directive 85/374/EEC on liability for defective products (Product liability directive) and the 2015 Consumer Rights act. (well I haven't been involved with product claims for fourteen years since I retired)

Consumer Protection Act

And this shows that a clamant who has suffered loss as a result of a defective product can bring a claim against the manufacturer.

Skoda are incorrect in thinking the liability lies with the seller of the car

It is their liability

 

I have now had confirmation that the heater matrix was blocked with sand, as I proposed earlier there is only one way for sand to appear in a sealed cooling system, and that is that it was left in place during the manufacturing process, due to inaedquate cleaning out sand cores in the casting cavities

 

I am preparing a letter to both Skoda UK and the  relevant motor ombudsman

 

 

Edited 25 June, 2019 by oldgroaner
bad spelling!

[oldgroaner]

I forgot to add the following

The time limit in which proceedings can be brought is set out in the Limitation Act 1980, which stipulates that there is a limitation period of six years for actions in respect of simple contracts and actions in tort occasioning claims for damages other than personal injury.

[ScoutCJB]

On 24/06/2019 at 06:25, Jock said:

I've just had to have my cooling system flushed, a new header tank and heater matrix on my MY16 Octavia Scout.  

 

The car has only done about 65K miles and when I asked the dealer why, they couldn't find a reason.  I first noticed the problem a few months ago - on a longish trip (>100 miles) and on motorway running, I'd have to top up the coolant, but on my normal weekly commute (50 miles per day), the level was stable.  It wasn't as if I was thrashing the car on the motorway, in fact I usually set cruise control to 70 and just sit there.

 

Credit to my local dealer though, they got 50% off the bill after negotiating with Skoda.

 

Same problem with mine and it's getting worse.  I thought it msybe water pump but that was replaced with cambelt 6 weeks ago but it's still an issue.  Is yours now sorted?  Was the matrix faulty and if so how did they know.  My heating has always been fine

[Nikonite]

Looking in the net it's a problem thought the VAG range, loads of Mk7 golf, Leon etc with the same problems . There is a TSB pointing to excess flux as the cause

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByxgazxO4YLZV0hyTm1OVm1tNE0/view

TS-80-15-04.pdf - Google Drive

Edited 26 June, 2019 by Nikonite

[Jock]

15 hours ago, ScoutCJB said:

 

Same problem with mine and it's getting worse.  I thought it msybe water pump but that was replaced with cambelt 6 weeks ago but it's still an issue.  Is yours now sorted?  Was the matrix faulty and if so how did they know.  My heating has always been fine

As far as I know, mine is OK now - the heater seems a little more efficient and they told me they'd replaced the matrix as they couldn't find anything else wrong with the system.  

 

The car's done around 65K miles. by the way.

[oldgroaner]

6 hours ago, Nikonite said:

Looking in the net it's a problem thought the VAG range, loads of Mk7 golf, Leon etc with the same problems . There is a TSB pointing to excess flux as the cause

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByxgazxO4YLZV0hyTm1OVm1tNE0/view

TS-80-15-04.pdf - Google Drive 1.16 MB · 3 downloads

isn't it facinating what is revealed on these Forums? quite clearly VAG have severe quality problems in their manufacturing process that need indeed must be made public as a matter of duty

[Breezy_Pete]

22 hours ago, oldgroaner said:

only one way for sand to appear in a sealed cooling system

 

Unless this is the silica that's meant to be contained in the expansion tank?

Here's the first reference google throws up for me, but I'm sure I've read various stories of these bags rupturing?

https://forums.seatcupra.net/index.php?threads/silica-grain-in-the-header-tank.449145/

 

Edit: I see logiclee suggested this a week ago, as your first reply to the thread, above.

Edited 26 June, 2019 by Wino

[oldgroaner]

This is something you should NEVER DO i have posted the link simply to allow identification of the bag in question

I repeat do NOT do this the bag is there because basically the performance of the cooling system has clearly been  asource of problems in the past

https://youtu.be/-GWRejR7U0w?t=167

 

[oldgroaner]

14 hours ago, Wino said:

 

Unless this is the silica that's meant to be contained in the expansion tank?

Here's the first reference google throws up for me, but I'm sure I've read various stories of these bags rupturing?

https://forums.seatcupra.net/index.php?threads/silica-grain-in-the-header-tank.449145/

 

Edit: I see logiclee suggested this a week ago, as your first reply to the thread, above.

The silica is in the form of crystals, any particles present in the matrix would consist of corroded alumnium which could likely lool like sand., and since the Silica bag is intended to beef up the protective qualities of the coolant, it obviously fails if these particles appear.

It's simply a bodge to cover up a manufacturing defect.

[oldgroaner]

On 25/06/2019 at 21:12, ScoutCJB said:

 

Same problem with mine and it's getting worse.  I thought it msybe water pump but that was replaced with cambelt 6 weeks ago but it's still an issue.  Is yours now sorted?  Was the matrix faulty and if so how did they know.  My heating has always been fine

The problem has been sorted, at least for now and a new coolant header tank with Mit Silikan ( Tea bag filled with silca gel) installed to extend the life of the coolant, hopefully the new matrix doesn't have a manufacturing problem with excessive flux as has been recorded in the past

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByxgazxO4YLZV0hyTm1OVm1tNE0/view

This is known as closing the barn door after the horse has bolted, in the hope of avoiding a product recall, it doesn't of course repair any damage done by corrosion already caused in the system.