Diesel down or out? A Superb problem to have...

[ColinD]

Hi all,

 

I find myself asking is diesel really dead?

 

It can't be wiped out in the next 10years, is it a better fuel for the planet, if not for us? 

 

Obviously the best fuel is not driving, not consuming beyond our garden. So as a compromise... We know CO2 is bad for the planet, and this is a very deep and long debate, which I'm hoping to nip, by saying in the next 10years is diesel dead?
 

Context:  I'd like a newer car with active cruise :D.

 

I've previously owned a 170(remapped) 4x4 superb MKII. It didn't want for anything, was ample for my needs and was sufficently capable for my driving ability.

 

So I was about set to get a 272 petrol, nearly new.  I've saved/budgeted to around the 28k mark. Does not get all the toys but enough.

 

I've also tried a 190 4x4 sportline estate, which whilst very new was also fine. Very diesel, but it was fine once inside and moving.

For me I don't go near cities that often. So the threat of ULEZ is not something I worry for. Although a new euro6 should be ok even if ULEZ kick in by 2024. Wife has a petrol ford focus 125ps, so we're safe for popping into sheffield... I can also use this for longer journeys as it's a full cover lease, just add fuel.

 

I'm trying to reconcile, beyond fun, why I'm still thinking about the 272 superb I know I don't want an open diff FWD. The octavia rs isn't an option for SWMBO comfort when I use her's for a week etc.

 

Heart is set on the 272, head and wallet is set on the 190. Both can overtake a lorry or caravan and both can easily keep the NSL on avg.

 

Given a slightly heavy foot, or  desire to get on with it,  I've done a 15k per annum compare on fuel.

 

98 @138.9 in the 272 totals £2706 @35mpg

reg d @ 134.9 in the 190d totals £1839 @50mpg

 

So I'll be pocketing about £866 a year in fuel savings.  ( roughly ) If I ran the 272 just on 95, thats about 600 diff. 600 is a lush 5 day climbing holiday.

 

Both cars will be stored on a public road, used in motorway and mountain areas, winter and summer,. I'll either be alone or several people & kit. In the far north there are not many places that always sell performance fuel. i.e 95 and black might be the only option on a single pump forecourt.

 

I personally see a narrowing window, I like this version, not the next. The dealer demo/ex12wk stock is dwindling as they run them out. The discounts on new are not as high for a while, and then there is the price hike and the next price hike come october, effectivly meaning they will cost more in 6months regardless.

 

I'm planning on running for at least 5 years and possibly 10years to bring the monthly as close to 200 as plausible. Deprecating down to a nominal 1k value over 10.

 

272 4x4 Superb 28k 4 week old hatch for 28k, VC, sunroof.

+ Petrol - Less bad market perception

- Low mpg - Costly to run

+ Power

- Chain servicing risk

- Seek out 98 fuel

+ Higher price

- tuning box for 300+

- theft risk

 

190 4x4 Diesel 26k 2 mth old est for 26k. Canton, heated screen etc, about 2.5k extras.

- Diesel Market deprecation

+ Hiher Mpg - Cheaper to run

- DPF & EGR servicing risk

- Seek out perf diesel ( reduce egr risk )

+ canton

+ Lower price

+ tuning box for 200+

 

The other two options are:

• Run my v50T5 for 1 more year to see what ev comes ( she's a 30mpg petrol so no fuel savings just deprecation savings )
• A 3year old 280PS L&K 40+k on the clock for 20k, thus reducing my inital outlay but actually over the remaining 7years of 10, costing more per month than the two above

 

I'm really confused and torn between the two.  What a fine predicament I find myself in

[shyVRS245]

Replaced wife's diesel in 2015 and she is very happy to be a petrol convert 4 years on and switched myself in April 2016 to petrol and personally would not go back to diesel again. Her Karoq is now averaging 50mpg (148bhp) and my 336bhp Octavia has averaged 40mpg since new and 24,075 miles. Road tax now £145 per year for both cars but would be similar for diesels registered after April 2017.

[ColinD]

I want petrol... to a point. Cant' help but think about the planet a little bit... euro6D should be fine for local kids. The 20yr old school bus less so.

 

This is primarily mine, but I'm not an arse enough to make SWMBO's life difficult. Less so if I'm to borrow her's once in a while, any driver, any mileage, any tryres, bumps all on her lease, covered zero cost

 

Petrol works but I still want more than 150 and I don't want a SUV, well maybe the ateca. But it 's too obvious! Thats the sole reason the 272 is in te mix, it's low key.

 

The citigo is a annomlie as it was fine for me too, kind of. at 60+ mpg can't fault it. Nothing skoda/VAG make appeals in FWD Open diff and the rs is the only one with a trick diff, but the rs is the only one SWMBO cannot find a comfortable position for her disability.

 

So 200+ 4x4 or LSD is in summary what I 'want'.

 

I'm pretty sure it should be the diesel. But the `I want's` demon says petrol... despite the insane logic that it costs more to buy, more to run. Both will deprecate rapidly for marketing and market reasons.

 

Edited 2 August, 2019 by ColinD

[shyVRS245]

Life's too short to go with the logical choice all the time. Mine is almost 2 years old and it still makes me smile when I fire it up and hear the cold start and the Milltek burbling away. Could you really say the same about a cold start rattle with a 190bhp diesel anything?

[penguin17]

Are the running costs are huge factor for you, @ColinD? As in, how far up in your list of requirements is the economy? 

 

Momentum 99 RON is also available at Tesco Extra in Inverness and the BP in Aviemore sold both 'premium' diesel and petrol when I was up there last  . I personally wouldn't run the engine, long term on 95 RON.  They are tuned to run optimally on 98+.  I'm not wishing to spark a debate on this I just know from 3 well regarded tuners that the TSI units perform better with the higher octane stuff and burn cleaner too. Maybe less of an issue with the newer injection methods but the old TFSI engines really did suffer with carbon deposits on injectors when ran long term on 95 RON (I experienced this first hand).   Why spend a premium to get a performance engine and then dull it's performance?  

 

Also, for both cars you have mentioned tuning with a tuning box; is this purely to maintain warranty (Vs. a remap)?  

 

Have you thought about the 220 TSI or is 4x4 an absolute must for you?  I test drove both 220 and 280 back-to-back and TBH I only really noticed a difference at the fat end of the rev range (same torque) but unfortunately for me, that little bit of high end fizz is what made me 'need' the 280.  I didn't have issues with front wheel traction in the 220 either but it was a warm, dry Spring day.  On a wet road, I'm sure I'd have seen the TCS light on a few times.   If running costs are an issue but you'd still like a petrol then the 220 would be a good shout.  It's a lovely engine in either output. 

 

Having come from 11 years of running diesels I'm so glad I moved back to petrol.  Yes, you will no longer see your MPG figures starting with a '5' but you also don't get the agricultural clatter and vibration from the engine and despite the TDI units being quite smooth and refined they can't compare to the TSI's.  I spent years thinking the newer CR TDI's were refined until I test drove my first 280 and thought the engine wasn't actually running and that's no exaggeration, that was how stark the contrast was.  I was in my brothers 184PS Octavia Scout a few weeks back and it further cemented my resolve to never go back to diesel unless I really had to. 

 

It's quite interesting to see what Mazda have done with their new engine tech; ignition controlled petrol but the fuel:air is combusted at high pressure just like a diesel.  Petrol performance, diesel economy.  It could be the future for ICE's and if adopted by more manufacturers then it could deprecate diesel engines in anything other than commercial and plant vehicles.  

 

I've cut down on my milage massive and am now doing ~15K miles per year and sometimes I spend £85-90 for another 350 miles (100+ miles more on a long run) worth of range but it's worth it IMO; not just for when you get an open road and can plant your foot but just for every day driving too. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 2 August, 2019 by penguin17

[Ootohere]

I am back as a diesel fan for high miles and fuel consumption.

But,

i would not have a VW engine TDI with SCR out of warranty. 

 

 So for new keepers a TSI it has to be and hopefully GPF's are not going to be an issue a few years down the line.

Just leave alone or not expensive replacements.

[ColinD]

Tbh running costs are not an issue.

 

Until I put them in black and white.

 

Climbing walking pretty much my only hobby, if I discount this place for a moment.

 

The 'deal' on the diesel is tempting me. Every other sinue and nerve is in agreement on the petrol side.

 

 

[shyVRS245]

3 minutes ago, ColinD said:

Tbh running costs are not an issue.

 

Until I put them in black and white.

 

Climbing walking pretty much my only hobby, if I discount this place for a moment.

 

The 'deal' on the diesel is tempting me. Every other sinue and nerve is in agreement on the petrol side.

 

 

Your sounding like an Accountant and we know how boring they are don't we?

[penguin17]

53 minutes ago, ColinD said:

Tbh running costs are not an issue.

 

 

Every other sinue and nerve is in agreement on the petrol side.

 

 

 Well that settles that! Just get the petrol.  You're welcome. 

[ColinD]

haha yes, I blame SWMBO. Till 2008 I was quite impulsive. 2013 I worked for myself and realised I could not eat car parts and chasing a 500 job took almost as much time as a 500 job. I sold the superb and brought the citigo, live like a student again, spare cash yes, but not wasteful. Buried the impulse. Dusting it off now.

 

But I'm still thinking diesel is not as bad/dead as folk make out. I'm wondering if there is a 5year bubble, like the dotcom in the 00's. But in five years time when we're browning out, long queues at charging stations, new batteries are 5k a pop, that we won't look back and say dam I wish I had a ICE.

 

A little part of me is questioning the need, desire for a big ICE. Big relative to new 1l.  Latest rumour is new citigo will be EV only. The worlds gone mad. I guess if we close a few more smelting plants and other heavy industry then there will be some spare capcity.

 

So I'm in part thinking the planet does not need a big co2 car, but it's already made so... you know, rude not to, right?

 

I'm lost!

1 hour ago, shyVRS245 said:

Your sounding like an Accountant and we know how boring they are don't we?

 

Hah well it's my accountant saying the 280 is just about ok

[shyVRS245]

15 minutes ago, ColinD said:

haha yes, I blame SWMBO. Till 2008 I was quite impulsive. 2013 I worked for myself and realised I could not eat car parts and chasing a 500 job took almost as much time as a 500 job. I sold the superb and brought the citigo, live like a student again, spare cash yes, but not wasteful. Buried the impulse. Dusting it off now.

 

But I'm still thinking diesel is not as bad/dead as folk make out. I'm wondering if there is a 5year bubble, like the dotcom in the 00's. But in five years time when we're browning out, long queues at charging stations, new batteries are 5k a pop, that we won't look back and say dam I wish I had a ICE.

 

A little part of me is questioning the need, desire for a big ICE. Big relative to new 1l.  Latest rumour is new citigo will be EV only. The worlds gone mad. I guess if we close a few more smelting plants and other heavy industry then there will be some spare capcity.

 

So I'm in part thinking the planet does not need a big co2 car, but it's already made so... you know, rude not to, right?

 

I'm lost!

 

Hah well it's my accountant saying the 280 is just about ok

If you sit on the fence any longer you will get splinters like Corbyn.

[ColinD]

I like the fence. Have long maintained it's the best view as you watch both sides of the grass turn from green to brown eventually.

 

We'll be using shanks's pony soon enough

[Warmonkry]

@ColinD   Many many years ago I had a teacher who told me to write 200 times....

 

Procrastination is the thief of time.

 

Start writing 

 

Pete

[ColinD]

pp "Procrastination is the thief of time" * 200

 

If only I knew that bit of code when I as in school

 

I've done it, told SWMBO I'm doing it... now to go and choose between a few... should be easy right, not many options to care about

 

Edited 2 August, 2019 by ColinD

[Gaz]

'Run my v50T5 for 1 more year to see what ev comes'

 

Is there a good reason why this shouldn't be an option?  The Volvo looks nice enough.  Is it opportune to stop, take a breather, have a Cadbury's Caramel?

 

Just wondering if your introspective wranglings between diesel and petrol are enough for you to hold off for a bit.  Appreciating you've just said your doing it, and also my hypocrisy at having recently changed from an Octy to a GTI without the best of justifications for doing so.

 

Gaz 

 

 

[ColinD]

Running the T5 is a Backup for sure. Nowt wrong with it. Except I kind of want an auto and adaptive cruise... My left knee is a bit umscar and it aches after three hours stop start traffic. Nothing a bit of exercise, physio won't sort.

 

I'm not sure we'll see a battery leap in five years. I'm personally not convinced ev is better once all said... Is battery waste a future problem. The energy to drive two tonnes has to come from somewhere. Yes some of it 'recovrred' on braking. But for me ev range is the worry. Although not dissimilar to the citigo.

 

I do feel five to ten, it will be sorted. Of course we'll have reopened the coal mines by then too so a high co2 car can be popular once more.

 

I'm going to try and try one tomorrow for more than 10mins... shame the local one is more expensive than others, maybe that's why they are reluctant to lend.

 

Until I sign the paperwork I can say anything... 😆

[SuperbTWM]

8 hours ago, Roottootemoot said:

i would not have a VW engine TDI with SCR out of warranty. 

 

 

What makes you say that? I can't seem to recall seeing many posts regarding problems with SCR.

[Ootohere]

@SuperbTWM  True not many, but when they are they are expensive and luckily still under Warranty apart from those that are not.

 

As i always say you never know how things are after 3 years or 4 until 3 years have passed.

  So time will tell but seeing as i have an Under 3 year old 2.0TDI SCR DSG that appears to me to be the last of the great VW Defeat Device Cheaters i would not have one out of Warranty.

My one will now have the DPF light on after just 3 days of short trips, it used to take 8 miles to clear, now it takes 20 miles.

Used to have 7,000 mile Adblue Range, then 7,500 when filled, then 8,000 range, now 8,500 miles.

 

I hope who ever gets landed with it has luck.

[KeteCantek]

Just get the petrol and forget about diesel. Even the 220 is gonna be more fun than a 190

 

diesel is OK for a lease/couple years and huge mileages in that time period. 

[jrw]

Diesel isn't dead.

 

The new S4 can only be had in diesel.  Audi are investing heavily in diesel tech.

 

Diesels emit less CO2 than petrol (so contradicts your argument that they are more harmful than petrol to the planet), so much so that CO2 has increased for the first time in years, mainly due to people being conned by petrol being better and as efficient as diesel.

 

Granted older diesels emit Nox but this isn't harmful to the planet, just people. New cars which are Euro 6 emit the same or less than a petrol equivalent with better designed, more reliable DPF's along with AdBlue.

 

My 2014 Octavia VRS can do 58MPG on a run.  SWMBO'd Passat GT 1.4TSI DSG can manage around 46MPG.  This is a June 2018 model without a GPF so which one is causing the most pollution on a run?  She gets 38-42mpg on her commute (19miles dual carriageway with lots of islands, traffic lights and traffic).  When she was using my Octavia (when I still had a company car) she was getting 48-51mpg.  It is a big difference, and the Octy has 35 more bhp and god knows how much more torque.  My dad has a Golf GTI with the 225bhp 2.0TSI and can get 42MPG on a run.  I also have a Golf R and can get 35MPG!  Normally the R is around 24mpg!

 

There is lots of bad press and frankly fake news on the whole diesel debate and it must be annoying for car manufacturers.  Diesel isn't going anywhere and I reckon in a few years we will see a reverse in the trend when the government cotton on that diesels aren't the evil the press make out.  The EV infrastructure just isn't here in the UK and wont be for at least a decade.

[Ootohere]

VW Group / Audi / Porsche wish it was 'fake news' other than 'Implausible results' from tests.

 

Love the

'Granted older diesels emit NoX but this isn't harmful to the planet just people'.

 

What a great place the planet will be after the people are all gone, they are the problem obviously!

 

 

Edited 6 August, 2019 by Roottootemoot

[jrw]

7 minutes ago, Roottootemoot said:

VW Group / Audi / Porsche wish it was 'fake news' other than 'Implausible results' from tests.

 

Love the

'Granted older diesels emit NoX but this isn't harmful to the planet just people'.

 

What a great place the planet will be after the people are all gone, they are the problem obviously!

 

 

Talk about taking what I say out of context. 

 

Good to see nothing changes on here.

[Ootohere]

@jrw Nothing does, you will defend VW Group to the hilt.

Do you have any interest to declare?

  I remember you saying in the past i was defaming them, and then it all comes out in the wash.

 

?

Can i ask what is taken out of context from your post before mine?

Edited 6 August, 2019 by Roottootemoot

[jrw]

8 minutes ago, Roottootemoot said:

@jrw Nothing does, you will defend VW Group to the hilt.

Do you have any interest to declare?

  I remember you saying in the past i was defaming them, and then it all comes out in the wash.

 

?

Can i ask what is taken out of context from your post before mine?

Don't recall defending VW group in anything i posted above?

 

Out of context:

'Granted older diesels emit NoX but this isn't harmful to the planet just people'.

I was quoting Colin about him asking about is diesel a better fuel for the planet.  Yes it is, just older ones not so much for people.  That was pretty clear to read in my post in the context of the OP.  New diesels are fine and are around the same Nox as Petrol equivalents, this is another part you failed to quote putting my comment further out of context.

 

'Fake News'

Never said Dieselgate was fake news. I am saying that the whole bad press in general about diesels following on from dieselgate is fake news about how bad they are for the environment (see point above, they aren't bad for the environment).  People automatically see diesels now as bad, when in fact they aren't, new ones are far from bad and often better than their petrol counterpart.

 

I don't recall ever defaming you at all, let alone about diesels.  Only argument I ever got into on here when I had my old octy was with a certain member and his love for his 1.8tsi.

[Ootohere]