Felicia 1.3mpi engine swap

[RicardoM]

If you have the service manual from the Romanian site, then you are covered. There is no better information. I understand what is your present problem but I don't know for sure what have you done before getting to torque the crankshaft pulley bolt. Read again from the manual and see if you missed some vital information. It all has to do with the assembly mode, play, and torque values for each bearing. If you didn't change the crankshaft or bearings in any way of course.

[JussiG7]

Hi! 

I didn´t change the crankshaft and the main bearings. Only those bearings of the connecting rods. I have almost all phases on video or on pictures. Must organize them to remember all the things that have happened since I began to service this engine.

But we forgot, with my friend, to celebrate  the 1/2 anniversary of the whole Skoda engine swap case, so the first of May might be a good date for it :)    And after it, find a solution for the problem. Thanks about interest !!!

[RicardoM]

So you've changed the bearings of the connecting rods WITHOUT touching the main bearings.

Have a look at pages 13-14 to 13-16 in 1.3 Itr. Engine, Mechanical Components manual. Disregard the grinding the crankshaft part. Concentrate on the correct position of the guide rings and the supporting ring for double checking. Now read carefully the paragraph Examining axial play then have a look back at Fig. 1 from page 13-5. See what I mean?

[JussiG7]

Of course I touched the main bearings! First I removed the 2nd bearing cap (the central) to see the condition of the old bearing. Found it ok, so I torqued it back to 75 Nm.

And then, trying to find out, what might be wrong with those two guiding rings, I opened the first main bearing cap and torqued it back to 75. It should not move the whole crankshaft anywhere.

 

I have gone thru those pages 13-14 to 13-16 and found nothing new, ´cause I have screen captured and translated them at least twice.

 

"Examining axial play" gives me the information that there should be no noticeable axial play. But I haven´t got a dial gauge.

And it tells me that the tolerances are rather little. But as there has not been any grinding, it should work as it did before.

 

And I see the Figure 1 at page 13-5. There is a special tool "axial bearing support bush MP 1-112"  (of which I have never even heard) to prevent the axial play.

But so what? As I was not grinding the crankshaft, I assumed that there would be no need for that kind of tools.

 

Now, only clear problem that I have found in my "private investigations" is, that the both guiding rings around the main bearing number 1 seem to have a lot of play in the direction of the crankshaft diameter, not axial play.

And that play seems to have caused some trouble, especially with the inner guiding ring, so that it did not fit well automatically despite the fact that the lug was opposite the slot.

In the beginning I thought that it would be enough if I get the lug opposite the slot. But now I have found out, that, because of that diameter directional play I have to be very careful to get that ring well positioned.

Can´t explain it better, but right now I am going to meet my engine. And trying to check that inner ring as well as possible. And if there are some kind of cracks or damages in it, I´ll try to grind them away with P800 water sanding.

That is all I can say now. Some pics about the objects.

 

Yes, and I think that I am not seeing what you mean 😷

 

Edited 30 April, 2020 by JussiG7

[RicardoM]

3 hours ago, JussiG7 said:

Of course I touched the main bearings!

Since you told us that you changed only the bearings of the connecting rods, why should I think you messed with the main bearings?

Now it is obvious the problem you have is due to lack of axial play. When you checked the main bearings and put them back, you disturbed the axial play. You need proper feeler gauges to make sure the axial play is maintained. Otherwise, when you install the crankshaft pulley, the crankshaft gets pulled and rubs laterally on the bearing with the smallest play.

[JussiG7]

Hi!

 

On the previous page I mentioned several times in several comments, that I checked the main bearing number 2 to see the condition of the cap side (lower) bearing.

While the two other main bearings were on their places with right tightness, I still can´t  understand,  what could change the axial play, as the same cap with the same bearing was put back to its original place.

I attach here the photo from page three.

 

But something has happened with the crankshaft´s position, however, cause my friend found out that the locking of the crankshaft is obvious to be due the thing that happens  in the right end of the crankshaft.

 

And describing it without illustration is difficult, but I try: Because the shoulder of the crankshaft is now located about 500 micrometers too deep, tightening the pulley causes that the thick supporting ring (that should roll) goes against the stable outer guiding ring (that does not roll) and not against the crankshafts shoulder, that is a rolling part. And that seems to be the first reason for the locking. If it were passed, there might occur also that phenomenon of crankshaft rubbing against the bearing with the smallest play.

 

This problem with the thick support ring tightening against the guiding ring was so simple, that it never crossed my mind, because I couldn´t understand that in general nothing would have changed in the location of the crankshaft.

 

Must say that I am still quite blown away with both theories, though I´ve at least seen the simple case that my friend noticed, and understand something about your theory of the lack of the axial play (it is not visible, I mean, with my eyes I see that there are little gaps on both sides of the main bearings, except near the flywheel, I can´t see it)

 

Excuse me, if there are spelling mistakes, I am so tired.

[RicardoM]

6 minutes ago, JussiG7 said:

While the two other main bearings were on their places with right tightness, I still can´t  understand,  what could change the axial play, as the same cap with the same bearing was put back to its original place.

I've told you, when you removed a main bearing to check its status, you put it back without checking its axial play. The bearings and the caps are not like Lego pieces that fit each time the same.

You'll know which main bearing has no play using a feeler gauge.

If you don't believe me, have a look at these very informative videos.

 

 

 

[JussiG7]

Thanks about those videos!

 

About the first video:

There is a good hint how to remove a top side main bearing. But it is possible, that you did understand my text wrong, because I am not so good at terminology . About the 2nd main bearing I told you:   

22 hours ago, JussiG7 said:

Of course I touched the main bearings! First I removed the 2nd bearing cap (the central) to see the condition of the old bearing.

And that means: I removed the cap of the 2nd main bearing to see the wear surface of the lower bearing while it was all the time in the cap. I touched it (with oily fingers) but I did not remove it from the cap. And the upper bearing I did not touch at all, I did not move it from its position. And the cap was installed the right way, not the opposite. So, what could go wrong? 🙄 

 

The guy in video says that many people think that the "tang" is the thing that holds the bearing in its position, as it is in reality built only for installing purpose, it means defining the axial position. And the radial pressure coming from the cap (with lower bearing) torqued in its position keeps the upper bearing in its position. That is clear for me.

And centering the crush in the lower bearing was also a matter of course. 

 

About the second video:

I haven´t got a dial gauge, but I do have a feeler gauge. So it is possible for me to measure the connecting rod side clearances and the axial play of the main bearings. But, as I see it, it is not the first thing to do, because the crankshaft locks for  another reasons, like I shall declare you later.

 

And the third video:

Lots of talk about standard and different cut bearings. Not important for me. Vertical Oil Clearance in standard and undersized cases. I see no connection to my case.

 

So, as you have that theory about one of the three main bearings having no play, I agree with you. But the most acute problem seems to be in the right end of the crankshaft outside the crankcase. I attach some pics and a video.

 

The easiest way to get rid of that locking situation would be some kind of washer above the crankshaft shoulder. But as there was no washer in the beginning, as I opened the timing cover, the problem should be solved the other way, if possible.

 

Link to the last video:     https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QVhgDMCZGw&feature=youtu.be

 

 

[Musescu_A]

 

On 01/05/2020 at 18:44, JussiG7 said:

 

 

The easiest way to get rid of that locking situation would be some kind of washer above the crankshaft shoulder. But as there was no washer in the beginning, as I opened the timing cover, the problem should be solved the other way, if possible.

 

I had the same issue when I changed my timing chain. You don't need to place a washer there. All you need to do is to put oil on those surfaces as you assemble the engine. Afterwards when you tighten the bolt, the engine should move a bit more freely.

 

Remember not to turn the engine too much without oil in it, though as you might end up seizing it, or if you do, put some oil through the distributor hole in order to get oil on those surfaces.

[JussiG7]

Thanks about the encouraging news!

 

So you got your crankshaft locked only by changing the timing chain? Without touching bearings of the connecting rods or crankshaft?

 

Maybe I shall trust the miraculous power of oil and measure bearing plays and crankshaft ends´ clearances and after getting them wide enough, I shall try the "right end problem" once more with very oily parts.

 

At least it is worth trying. Musty say, because the engine has been open for months, I have forgotten to lubricate all parts again. And it of course means something to the mobility of each part. Thanks!

[RicardoM]

34 minutes ago, JussiG7 said:

and measure bearing plays and crankshaft ends´ clearances

You can say that again. Assembling an engine is a craft. You work with tight tolerances so you need good measuring tools. Of course, you can do it without measuring properly. The engine might rotate freely (apparently) by hand but at first trip the engine will overheat and seize.

[JussiG7]

Does a proper measuring mean a dial gauge?

 

I have got good feeler gauges, but I suppose that measuring with them means for you "without measuring properly" ???

 

Of course the tolerances are tight, but when the parts are the same as before opening the crankcase - despite conrod bearings - I suppose there is a possibility of success, however.

I am not a mechanic, but my common sense tells me, that the same parts that have worked 170 000 km are able to work further, with some exceptions:

1. If they are too worn out, they shall not work very long

2. If they are installed wrong, the lubrication may not go thru the whole system as it should -> engine shall seize

3. If there is not enough axial play (or it has been divided uneven) , the engine shall seize 

 

But from my point of view your attitude is:  Because I have opened the cap of one main bearing, the game is over, and nothing can be done any more, everything is lost.

Better carry that engine straight to waist station metal recycling.... Maybe I shall even do it ! I am getting fed up with Skoda Felicias, that are so rare here in Finland,

that it is almost impossible to get any spare parts here. Felicia era is over here in Finland, it must be admitted. I only tried to prolong  it, but better admit the truth, and buy the VW van that works also as a residence

 

Thanks about all the advises during many years. Maybe it is time to say good bye now !

 

JussiG7 from Finland

[Musescu_A]

2 hours ago, JussiG7 said:

So you got your crankshaft locked only by changing the timing chain? Without touching bearings of the connecting rods or crankshaft?

Yes, without touching the bearings. But only when I was tightening the pulley it was seizing up.

[RicardoM]

55 minutes ago, JussiG7 said:

Because I have opened the cap of one main bearing, the game is over, and nothing can be done any more, everything is lost.

Wrong. All I've said is that SOME repairs need higher skills and better tools. You couldn't find the cause of engine seizing and asked us. You got various answers yet none works for you. Maybe it is time to admit your limits. Nobody is perfect.

[JussiG7]

I am not perfect, far from it  But the problem is, that here in Finland we don´t have that kind of people that would repair only an engine.

We have got garages for car repairs, and engine repair shops to plan the cylinder heads or grind the crankshaft journals etc.

But for this kind of job there are no places.

Right now my friend called me, and asked to have a time-out to search the engine properly. So, I allow him to do it. He is wiser than me.

If there would happen a miracle, I´ll let you know.

But, as I said before, the times of the Felicias seem to be over in Finland, which makes me sad. This car served me 4 years, and is now 22 years old. My attitude to it is: "Well done, my friend, Rest In Peace"

 

With kind regards, JussiG

[RicardoM]

3 hours ago, JussiG7 said:

Right now my friend called me, and asked to have a time-out to search the engine properly. So, I allow him to do it. He is wiser than me.

Not a big deal. First you need to take out all main bearings caps except one. Then torque the pulley to specs. See if the crankshaft moves or it is seized. Unscrew the pulley bolt. Repeat with next main bearing. In the end see how axial clearance is and adjust accordingly.

[JussiG7]

Hi again!

The hot June is gone and the cool July has arrived here in Finland! So, a little bit back to topic. My friend found out the reason why the crankshaft got seized. Somehow the bigger end seal, the left one had popped out from its place, and that made the crankshaft seize, as the pulley was tightened. So, now the engine would be ready to be installed if we get the old one removed. But everything depends on my friend, because that green Felicia of mine is now located in his farm on country side.

And I got tired of waiting and bought in the beginning of June - nothing worse than - almost the same kind of Green beast as the former was. This one is from the year 2000 and mileage is higher but condition is much better, because she has had only two owners before me. Two old guys, 10 years both, and a perfect service book from the beginning to today. No rust, no welding, no dirt, almost like a new car !!!

So, at least, my Felicia hobby seems to go on. And I believe that also that older one shall be in traffic some day.

With those two previous Felicias I had to start repairing as soon as I got the trade done. But this one seems to be flawless

With Joyful Greetings Jussi G from Finland

[RicardoM]

No rust on back wheel arches and rear door in Finland? Did they keep it in the living room?