Best (in place) battery charger?

[Howardd]

Many thanks for all the useful posts above and especially to Xman and digifish. 

My wife has a 2018 Citigo SE L 75

I have a 2017 Superb Sportline 280 hatch. 

Both cars still have the OE batteries fitted and both have start/stop. 

I also have a CTEK MXS 5.0 Charger...

Until reading the above posts , I’ve been reluctant to use the charger on either car because I knew that the cars both have battery management systems which, amongst other things, measure battery charge/discharge current continuously and therefore, I reasoned, me connecting a charger, no matter how smart the charger was, was likely to confuse the battery management gubbins as it would have no way of sensing the amount of charge current over time being taken by the battery. 

But now all is clear, thanks to XMan!

 

btw the CTEK manual seems to make no mention of this important fact. 

My charger only has settings for ‘normal’  and AGM. Does anyone know the type(s) of battery fitted to my Skodas? And if they turn out to be EFB what do I set my charger to?

I can’t pop out and have a look as I’m presently hiding from my 5 year old twins, er, correction, self-isolating!

 

Final thought (at last you say),  reading the latest Honest John Q and A’s a reader enquires about trickle charging his Seat Arona FR. HJ contacts Seat UK and is told that this vehicle is equipped with a Lithium-ion battery and therefore the correct type of charger must be used. 

I know that mistreating lithium batteries can result in Very Bad Things Happening. 

 I presume that our Skodas are lead-acid? I sort of took it for granted that lead acid was still the only appropriate choice for car batteries due to its extremely low internal resistance. But, hey, maybe I’m behind the times on this, as well as with so many other things!

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 4 April, 2020 by Howardd

[Tilt]

@Howardd This may help a little

 

https://www.yuasa.co.uk/info/technical/agm-efb-explained/

 

I'm sure you can go out and look at your car to see type of battery it has......for if you cannot pop out to have a look, how are you going to attach the charger???

 

If you connect it as advised in previous posts, and I think someone mentioned the settings, then no worries......

 

I think the Lithium reference will be an Electric Vehicle if not mistaken.

Edited 4 April, 2020 by Tilt

[BigEjit]

16 minutes ago, Howardd said:

My charger only has settings for ‘normal’  and AGM. Does anyone know the type(s) of battery fitted to my Skodas? And if they turn out to be EFB what do I set my charger to?

EFB, stick with normal program. 
AGM, use cold or AGM program which should be pre-limited to 14.8v. 
 

AGM needs a voltage limited charge program whereas EFB/ Flooded battery doesn’t.

Edited 4 April, 2020 by BigEjit

[Howardd]

Thanks Tilt for your speedy response. I’ll read the Yuasa info with interest. 
I think settings mentioned were for a different brand of charger? 
But I’ll give it a go with the CTEK, now that I know I’m not going to confuse the BMS. 

[Howardd]

Thanks too BigEjit, great stuff!

[mandp]

I'm now totally confused...

I've been charging up my battery for most of the day using a Ctek MXS 5.0.

I believed that cars with Stop/Start (like mine) need to use the `Normal Battery Programme` set to AGM. So that's what I did.

BUT whilst charging I noticed that the battery is EFB Varta (whatever that is)

I didn't take any real notice until I read `Big Ejit`s post above.

I'm concerned now that I may have done some damage to the battery.

[Tilt]

1 hour ago, mandp said:

I'm now totally confused...

I've been charging up my battery for most of the day using a Ctek MXS 5.0.

I believed that cars with Stop/Start (like mine) need to use the `Normal Battery Programme` set to AGM. So that's what I did.

BUT whilst charging I noticed that the battery is EFB Varta (whatever that is)

I didn't take any real notice until I read `Big Ejit`s post above.

I'm concerned now that I may have done some damage to the battery.

 

Hi Mike. Read the attached yuasa link above buddy. It explains the difference between the two.

 

I have an older Auto charger for normal batteries only, which includes EFB. These are just an enhanced / updated version of lead acid which allows for many thousands more engine starts. (so suitable for stop / start.)

 

Smart Charger needed for AGM batteries, set to AGM.

[xman]

23 minutes ago, mandp said:

 

I'm concerned now that I may have done some damage to the battery.

 

No point in worrying, might have gassed  a bit (overcharged), but very difficult to check or top up. And a good make like Varta will probably recombine gassing if only just a little. They have some reserve water too.

 

A good charger times out charging cycles as a safety backup.

 

Just switch to standard mode from now on.

 

[mandp]

Thanks for your responses chaps.

I've learned an awful lot today.

I always thought a car with Stop/Start had to be charged using AGM. I didn't even realise that AGM was a type of battery.

Being as mine is an EFB battery I will not, in future, toggle to the AGM position on my charger.

Many thanks again.

Regards

Mike.

 

[26DIPP]

Don't worry about draining the battery. I still have the SII and last year had it parked with its then 5 year old battery for 2 weeks at -10 to -15 °C. Started first time. My daughter is driving a Fabia II and she was working in France over the winter. I drove her car every 4 weeks just to turn the engine. No starting problems ever.

[xman]

13 minutes ago, 26DIPP said:

Don't worry about draining the battery. I still have the SII and last year had it parked with its then 5 year old battery for 2 weeks at -10 to -15 °C. Started first time. My daughter is driving a Fabia II and she was working in France over the winter. I drove her car every 4 weeks just to turn the engine. No starting problems ever.

 

Fabia ii is far simpler and doesnt have the micro hybrid charging (stop/start) that a fabia iii has which is rarely above 80% state of charge. Not sure about Superb 2 but 2 weeks is not a long time.

 

Manufacturers design for a standby time of over a month from what I've read. However any prolonged time in a partial state of discharge more than 40% can lead to irreversible sulphation and reduce battery capacity and life.

 

Covid-19 lockdown is currently said to be at least until the end of May. 

[taurean7]

I have a trickle charger 5amp I believe, and it has various connection options available to it.  The one I have been using presently is the 12v outlet in boot, so I am effectlively trickle charging back through the cars wiring loom itself.

 

has anyone else done this?

 

i ask, as the many number of times I have done this it has worked great.  Today however, I opened the boot to disconnect (don’t leave overnight connected) and the boot lights (the removeable light only works for torch , not the leds for the boot) and the tailgate leds have also stopped working.  Is there a fuse I need to check?

[digifish]

...about messing up the charge (coulomb) counting by connecting directly to the battery.

 

The system is designed to cope with all sorts of mucking about associated with incorrect charging behaviour by users or basic battery changes/disconnection. The worst case scenario I can think of is the Start/Stop will become inactive while the system recalibrates itself to work out why the battery is showing a high voltage and its coulomb counter is showing it needs to charge. 

 

Also about the wisdom of avoiding connecting both cables directly to the battery and explosions. Battery chemistry can create hydrogen gas, particularly when in a poor state of health and  or during over-charging. The reason to make the final contact to ground, well away from the battery is two fold. 1. Ground can indeed be made anywhere there is a metal to chassis contact, and so this is the terminal that must be used, the positive has to be on the battery (although you could I suppose connect close to the starter motor or alternator, but that is going to be inconvenient ). 2. Ground points can be found all over the place and well away from the battery - SO THAT if and when sparks happen, nothing goes POP or worse BANG in an acid and flame fire-ball!  

 

That said, if you are in a breezy area, and have had the bonnet open for more than a few minutes, this is also a very remote possibility. Safety instructions must assume the worst case scenario. BUT please understand I AM not telling you to ignore battery safety instructions!  The real danger is disconnecting after a long charge. So negative off first (remote from battery) and then positive. You want to be super safe. Give the battery a 10 second fan with something before disconnecting.

 

 

( stands well back from the screen while waiting for stern correction )

 

 

 

Edited 5 April, 2020 by digifish

[BigEjit]

That’s a well knackered, overcharged and generally abused flooded battery that’s been repeatedly deep discharged and recharged causing huge water losses internally.

 

Once the electrolyte level has fallen to below the top of the plates, it allows a spark to pass through the airspace in the battery between internal plates igniting the hydrogen/oxygen gas that’s present. The spark usually occurs when the starter motor is engaged. Could it happen using an external trickle charger? Unlikely. 

 

An external spark won’t blow the lid off a battery as there are flame arrestors in the lid. 

Edited 5 April, 2020 by BigEjit

[Howardd]

Interesting. An acquaintance of mine lost an eye many years ago whilst attempting to jump start an old banger. 
And as bigejit intimates above, it’s not just hydrogen that may be produced but oxygen too. Great eh?

Thanks Digifish for reassuring me that these battery management systems are resilient and pretty user proof. 
Purely as a matter of interest, does anyone know if any run of the mill production cars now use Lithium Ion batteries as a starter battery for their ic engine (I’m not referring to either hybrid or electric vehicles)?

 

[BigEjit]

BMW and Porsche had a go with 12v Lithium Ion 12v starter batteries for high end M cars and the like. They were stupidly expensive though at approx 1500 euros each at direct to OEM prices for the first ones. Double that for dealer prices! 

[mandp]

9 hours ago, digifish said:

 

Also about the wisdom of avoiding connecting both cables directly to the battery and explosions. Battery chemistry can create hydrogen gas, particularly when in a poor state of health and  or during over-charging. The reason to make the final contact to ground, well away from the battery is two fold. 1. Ground can indeed be made anywhere there is a metal to chassis contact, and so this is the terminal that must be used, the positive has to be on the battery (although you could I suppose connect close to the starter motor or alternator, but that is going to be inconvenient ). 2. Ground points can be found all over the place and well away from the battery - SO THAT if and when sparks happen, nothing goes POP or worse BANG in an acid and flame fire-ball!  

 

 

Wow, the more I read on this thread the more confused I get.

Regarding the connection of the earth to the car being well away from the battery (see above)....on my car the purpose built earth connection is just above the battery and I used it yesterday!

Am I missing something here?

[digifish]

42 minutes ago, mandp said:

Wow, the more I read on this thread the more confused I get.

Regarding the connection of the earth to the car being well away from the battery (see above)....on my car the purpose built earth connection is just above the battery and I used it yesterday!

Am I missing something here?

 

Well away is somewhere not on the the battery

[Tilt]

Is it that any residual current is lost in the bodywork, so that a spark is less likely to happen?????

[BigEjit]

No, just for including the battery minder in the charging circuit.

 

its very rare for a battery or charge related explosion to happen. You need the battery to have vented gas during/just after charging and have enough of a cloud hanging about when a spark is caused nearby to trigger anything. A sealed battery will have a pressure relief valve in the lid to hold the gases in as much as possible. A trickle charger won’t trouble this. An aggressive charge from deep discharged condition will push it a lot further but you will have bigger things to worry about if you were in this situation.

[OldBoyScout]

If I'm not sure where to find the earth on the car, could I just disconnect the battery from the car and connect the charger to the battery terminals, or would that upset the clever tech system in the car?

 

[BigEjit]

Put the red connector onto the red battery post clamp and put the black one on the metal tab sticking out from the black cable fixing on the vehicle body not far from the battery. Otherwise use any bit of bare metal or bolt head that’s screwed into the engine block, gearbox or body.

 

Its all in the handbook.

[digifish]

I made a shaky tutorial

 

 

 

[xman]

No need to scare people that connecting a battery charger is going to lead to a massive explosion.

 

Modern batteries are sealed and hydrogen is only produced when the battery is overcharged, and in fairly small amounts. Normally this recombines with oxygen internally to produce water, so we have what is called a maintenance free battery. Any hydrogen will not leak out unless it reaches a certain (over) pressure. Unless you're in an enclosed space with no ventilation and overcharging for hours on end  there is minimal chance of a dangerous hydrogen build up. The batteries are also fitted with a labyrinth lid that acts as a flame arrestor, so an internal  explosion initiated from outside is impossible.

 

A 5 amp smart charger is not likely to heat a battery that you would notice.

 

That battery in that video obviously shows signs the jump leads were either connected wrong way round or more likely the battery was shorted out. The evidence is the plates have been destroyed through a massive surge of current which is the only way they could buckle and fragment given the amount of energy that's required.

The first cell overheated and shorted internally when the jump leads were attached. The battery case then failed due to shrapnel damage due to rapid thermal runaway in the first cell.

 

Imo it was NOT a hydrogen explosion.

 

Just make sure your battery charger is not turned on until you connect it up as described in other posts, and you will be alright. Turn it off before disconnecting the leads.

Edited 5 April, 2020 by xman

[digifish]

And here is the outtake

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGilVlhzACY

 

 

 

 

Edited 5 April, 2020 by digifish