Just seen some news reports banging on about how Rishi Sunak is reviving Labour's old 2007 plans to charge EV drivers by the mile, with costs being as much as £1.50 per mile during heavy traffic times.

 

Political suicide, or is he serious?

While I'm well known as not being a fan of EVs, even I think that's a bit excessive....

When ICE cars are no longer available and revenue from petrol/diesel tax on fuel starts to fall it is obvious that EV owners will be targeted by some kind of stealth tax.

So were have the reports come from and were are they published?

Someone is flying a kite.

 

What Rishi Sunak & Grant Shapps know is the lower pollution figures that the UK are tied into and by when or the billions it will cost in penalties.

 

You need to get people in EV's like happened in Dundee before then charging them for being early adopters.

As it is frightening people off seems to be something maybe those with investments in Oil & gas production might want.

https://www.business-live.co.uk/ports-logistics/rise-electric-cars-could-lead-19293189

 

 

The Daily Fail.  

The Times....  Will spin a story in their way.

 

https://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6381279.stm

2007 and before EV's were a twinkle in the eye of a Chancellor.

 

EDIT.

So reading the stories the first thing that comes to mind is that while the VED might cover the 4 countries of the UK, & the UK Chancellor has control of Fuel Taxes & Duty, he does not have any say in Scotland on the cost of building or repairing roads or charging for the use of bridges, tunnels or 'toll roads', that is with the Scottish Government who have different Pollution Reduction plans than the UK Government have.

So England & Wales or maybe just for England reports from whoever and wherever.

 

http://reformscotland.com/2019/04/road-pricing

https://spice-spotlight.scot/2019/12/04/you-get-what-you-pay-for-20-years-of-devolved-transport-policy

 

 

 

 

Edited 1 December, 20205 yr by e-Roottoot

I highly doubt per mile tax will be levied against EV only. 

 

Tax on already expensive rapid charging, as targeted tax, yes. Additional per mile cost? No, it will definitely be across all cars, otherwise they have zero chance of hitting 2035 goal (2030 is ban on ICE only vehicles, 5 years later ban on all vehicles with ICE inside) 

3 hours ago, wyx087 said:

I highly doubt per mile tax will be levied against EV only. 

 

Tax on already expensive rapid charging, as targeted tax, yes. Additional per mile cost? No, it will definitely be across all cars, otherwise they have zero chance of hitting 2035 goal (2030 is ban on ICE only vehicles, 5 years later ban on all vehicles with ICE inside) 

 

So presumably all vehicles will have to, by law, be fitted with electronics to track them, then?

Given how well Track & Trace has worked, I have every faith that the British Government will invent something that integrates seamlessly with my particular vehicles and performs perfectly.... . . . . . . .  .  .  .  .  .  Honest, Gov!!

 

6 hours ago, shyVRS245 said:

When ICE cars are no longer available and revenue from petrol/diesel tax on fuel starts to fall it is obvious that EV owners will be targeted by some kind of stealth tax.

This isn't exactly stealthy, though... and given the current 45p per mile remuneration, I think £1.50 is more like robbery than simple tax!

Even if they only keep that for busy times or for entering certain places, most of us round here will be liable for that just in order to go to work. Presumably the lower costs will be for business rates?

 

I should have voted Labour. Then my internet would be free and there'd be a British car in every garage.... though occasionally one of them would actually make it home again!

So far no Tax Discs and ANPR has gone as the UK Government implementation does. 

Millions of vehicles with no VED on UK roads.

 

It is easy enough with vehicles registered and even without Black Boxes to have the Reg Number read as they pass a Toll Site / ANPR and as they pass another and the Registered Keeper be billed.

Issue is vehicles with no Registered Keeper, like the millions with no VED.

 

Maybe once there is GPS reception, Mobile Phone Reception & Digital Radio Reception coverage for the whole of the UK that will be fantastic.

 

My e-Bike knows my every trip and location and can even get updates by Wi-Fi & Blue Tooth.

My 2020 Vauxhall sometimes knows where i am and where i have been  and somedays has not a clue where it is.

 

For some reason the car has missed all journeys today & most of yesterdays even though the phone was plugged in and also connected by Bluetooth.

 

Google & Microsoft knows where the phone is all the time when on and sometimes when off.

 

Edited 1 December, 20205 yr by e-Roottoot

16 hours ago, e-Roottoot said:

It is easy enough with vehicles registered and even without Black Boxes to have the Reg Number read as they pass a Toll Site / ANPR and as they pass another and the Registered Keeper be billed.

Issue is vehicles with no Registered Keeper, like the millions with no VED.

Maybe once there is GPS reception, Mobile Phone Reception & Digital Radio Reception coverage for the whole of the UK that will be fantastic.

 

That's the thing, though - I don't have signal in most of the sites I drive to for work. They'd have to install a massive comms network across the whole UK, which would cost even more money and probably see even more taxation on driving.

I also wouldn't trust anyone holding that data (it won't be the government, of course, as it will get contracted out) to only use it for that specific purpose, but that's another thread.

Boris and pals will have big investments in satellites & the launch sites for rockets planned in the UK.

 

We must remember that Planes and Ships and Whales, Sharks and many living things can be chipped and tracked around the world, 

but if a plane crashes or disappears off the face of the earth the Super Powers can not find them.

To be honest, you may be reading too much into this. It hasn't left the drawing board, if it was on the drawing board to begin with. Probably more of a side note in a list of tax revenue ideas. 

 

It could be like VED, where after a certain date, all new cars sold will have to have telemetrics that report miles driven automatically. At the same time, all those new cars will have zero/cheap VED but expensive per mile tax. 

 

Implementing this retrospectively? I share your view, it can't be done effectively. 

It is the 'dark forces' start of their campaign against the Chancellor because they are scared he will become the Tory Leader and Prime Minister.

His In-laws are likely to be the ones that will own the satellites. 

 

 

Edited 2 December, 20205 yr by e-Roottoot

Never forget that we are all in this together and the Tory's are all in it for them and theirs. 

http://infosys.com/about.html

 

On 01/12/2020 at 18:44, Ttaskmaster said:

 

So presumably all vehicles will have to, by law, be fitted with electronics to track them, then?

Given how well Track & Trace has worked, I have every faith that the British Government will invent something that integrates seamlessly with my particular vehicles and performs perfectly.... . . . . . . .  .  .  .  .  .  Honest, Gov!!

 

Not as hard to implement as you might think. https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/travel/security-and-emergencies/emergency-assistance-vehicles-ecall/index_en.htm

 

New EU cars since 2018 already require the technology to be present to communicate without your permission, providing location to emergency services in the event of a serious accident.  So they don't have to invent very much!  If the phone/data link is already present, the location sensing is already present, and the onboard computer already calls for help if it detects a crash, how hard would it really be to introduce legislation that requires manufacturers to alter that code to record the vehicle location and speed every few seconds and send that data to - say- HMRC to have your charges (and speeding fines) collected by PAYE from your wages, pension, or benefits?   

 

 

Also the GPS co-ords and time wouldn't take much space on a memory chip, so there would be no requirement to have an always on data connection.  If you go out of range, fine, it'd dump all the data next time it made contact.  You might not have phone signal at some points in your journey, but it'd be unlikely you'd have no signal at all unless you were cheating the system by knobbling the transmission.  Signal loss could be recorded and that data passed back on next contact so dead areas could be filled in.

 

There are however some things which might mitigate against a lot of extra duty being required.  Firstly EV's would still pay VAT on the electricity consumed whether at home (unless you have home solar of course) or a public charger, so there would still be some vat revenue.  Granted not much if you can home charge and can get a special low price for overnight charging, but that won't apply to around 60% I believe, of car users who won't be able to home charge.  Secondly as renewables bring down electricity costs the vat on it could be raised without impacting peoples pockets, they just wouldn't get the reduction.  Thirdly the reduction in vehicle pollution is expected to save the NHS billions in treatment costs.

 

I do expect however the government will find some way to still charge road users, a) Because they have a massive COVID debt to pay off, b) because it would force people onto more environmentally friendly public transport, c) Because they'll want to tax the peasants off the roads to leave them free for their party contributor billionaire  cronies.  I'll leave it to you to decide which one depending on your political inclinations.

 

6 hours ago, widdershins said:

Thirdly the reduction in vehicle pollution is expected to save the NHS billions in treatment costs.

That will take several years, maybe even decades, to kick in as many people will have pre-existing health issues caused by pollution levels.

8 hours ago, widdershins said:

Not as hard to implement as you might think. https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/travel/security-and-emergencies/emergency-assistance-vehicles-ecall/index_en.htm

 

New EU cars since 2018 already require the technology to be present to communicate without your permission, providing location to emergency services in the event of a serious accident.  So they don't have to invent very much!  If the phone/data link is already present, the location sensing is already present, and the onboard computer already calls for help if it detects a crash, how hard would it really be to introduce legislation that requires manufacturers to alter that code to record the vehicle location and speed every few seconds and send that data to - say- HMRC to have your charges (and speeding fines) collected by PAYE from your wages, pension, or benefits?   

 

 

Also the GPS co-ords and time wouldn't take much space on a memory chip, so there would be no requirement to have an always on data connection.  If you go out of range, fine, it'd dump all the data next time it made contact.  You might not have phone signal at some points in your journey, but it'd be unlikely you'd have no signal at all unless you were cheating the system by knobbling the transmission.  Signal loss could be recorded and that data passed back on next contact so dead areas could be filled in.

 

There are however some things which might mitigate against a lot of extra duty being required.  Firstly EV's would still pay VAT on the electricity consumed whether at home (unless you have home solar of course) or a public charger, so there would still be some vat revenue.  Granted not much if you can home charge and can get a special low price for overnight charging, but that won't apply to around 60% I believe, of car users who won't be able to home charge.  Secondly as renewables bring down electricity costs the vat on it could be raised without impacting peoples pockets, they just wouldn't get the reduction.  Thirdly the reduction in vehicle pollution is expected to save the NHS billions in treatment costs.

 

I do expect however the government will find some way to still charge road users, a) Because they have a massive COVID debt to pay off, b) because it would force people onto more environmentally friendly public transport, c) Because they'll want to tax the peasants off the roads to leave them free for their party contributor billionaire  cronies.  I'll leave it to you to decide which one depending on your political inclinations.

 

Firstly, I won't be able to afford an electric car or indeed anything 'new', even by 2035, unless Labour gain power, nationalise my industry and somehow make it profitable enough to give me a massive pay rise... I might juuuuuuust be able to get a 2018 car by then, if they haven't all been scrapped.

So I'm stuck with ICE anyway and whatever tech they imagine it'd be a good idea to bolt on... assuming I choose to comply. They don't have a good track record with motorcycles, in that regard.

 

Renewables might seem cheaper, but it's often reported that the maintenance of the various plant and the environmental impact of manufacture/installation is pretty grim.

Same for EVs. The news keeps finding studies (another new one earlier this week, albeit commissioned by several car manufacturers who don't have many EVs themselves (except for BMW), so probably outright lies) on how they actually cause more pollution, up until around the 50,000 mile point, at which they equalise with ICE vehicles. That's about 5 years of average ownership, by which time many people will switch to newer cars anyway.

 

 

??

Who are the are manufacturers that do not already have EV's or are ready to start producing and selling EV's?

 

2nd hand EV's are available now for under £10,000.

The number available will rise greatly in the next year or 2 as more get to 3 or 4 years old and many will still have a valid manufacturers warranty and battery life warranty.

http://electrek.co/2019/04/22/study-electric-cars-dirtier-diesel-debunked

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 3 December, 20205 yr by e-Roottoot

24 minutes ago, Ttaskmaster said:

Same for EVs. The news keeps finding studies (another new one earlier this week, albeit commissioned by several car manufacturers who don't have many EVs themselves (except for BMW), so probably outright lies) on how they actually cause more pollution, up until around the 50,000 mile point, at which they equalise with ICE vehicles. That's about 5 years of average ownership, by which time many people will switch to newer cars anyway.

It's good you've picked up on the key part of the report: it's outright lies. 

 

On 5 years thing, remember, unless an early write-off, a car is normally in service for 10-15 years. So even with report's hand picked numbers, a Battery EV will pollute less within first half of its lifetime. Sounds good to me. 

 

On cost of EV's. As you can see Rootoot and myself have an EV as daily driver and a fossil fuel car for the other 10% journey. I used to run a 11 years old Mercedes C220 diesel. That used to cost me £400 per month including EVERYTHING (depreciation, fixes, servicing, insurance, etc). These 2 cars (wanted a bigger Skoda for family car) now cost me £500 per month, both around £9000 second hand, with EV being far cheaper to run whilst covering more miles. Point is, if your mileage pattern fits an early EV, buying and running an additional EV as daily driver is not as expensive as you thought. 

I really do not need my other cars anymore as they have only done a few miles each during Covid Lock Down.

But they will get used in the future and they are mine and paid for and really are not a great expense to insure or have VED on and no petrol or diesel is being paid for in them just now. They have moved and the fuel tanks are full of Winter Spec fuel.

One has just gone through its MOT and one is due next month.

14 & 10 year old cars.

 

A bigger EV could do the job i have my old cars for but i have what i have now for almost 3 more years & by the time it goes back the world will have moved on as will EV's and i might then get a bigger EV. Maybe not though as i got a small one to have fun driving on good driving roads.

 

I am like a child waiting for Santa as it looks like by Friday i can go play in an EV in the Snow instead of just going out in an ICE car.

Edited 3 December, 20205 yr by e-Roottoot

2 hours ago, Ttaskmaster said:

Renewables might seem cheaper, but it's often reported that the maintenance of the various plant and the environmental impact of manufacture/installation is pretty grim.

Same for EVs. The news keeps finding studies (another new one earlier this week, albeit commissioned by several car manufacturers who don't have many EVs themselves (except for BMW), so probably outright lies) on how they actually cause more pollution, up until around the 50,000 mile point, at which they equalise with ICE vehicles. That's about 5 years of average ownership, by which time many people will switch to newer cars anyway.

 

 

 Here's the backstory on that "report" the newspapers were doing articles on this week.  https://electrek.co/2020/11/30/did-aston-martin-publish-fake-emission-numbers-about-evs/ it makes interesting reading about how the PR and lobbying are being carried out.

That will be Aston Martin who modified Toyota iQ 1.3's to an Aston Martin Cygnet to sell to customers getting an Aston Martin as part of the 'kidology / scam' that many manufacturers are doing right now to 'fix their 'Average Emission figures' by partnering  up with another company.

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/electric-cars/analysis-winners-and-losers-automotive-co2-race

 

 

 

6 hours ago, e-Roottoot said:

2nd hand EV's are available now for under £10,000.

 

 

I only got this Škoda Octavia because it was either going to me for free or going to the scrapheap due to busted engine mounts and the PO didn't want to spend any more money fixing it. 

My previous Merc cost £550, and I've never spent more than £900 on a vehicle.

£10k is house deposit money, and we're nowhere near that yet!

 

6 hours ago, wyx087 said:

Point is, if your mileage pattern fits an early EV, buying and running an additional EV as daily driver is not as expensive as you thought. 

 

As above, my point is that (aside from it not fitting almost all of my requirements) EVs are still way too expensive for people like me to switch over... and public transport is not an option, so we'll be left with ICEs retrofitted with whatever CAN bus-scrambling tracking junk they come up with... probably selling my data to Huawei, while they're at it.

@Ttaskmaster As you were then, why even get onto the subject of EV's if they are not even coming into your plans present or in the future.

16 hours ago, e-Roottoot said:

@Ttaskmaster As you were then, why even get onto the subject of EV's if they are not even coming into your plans present or in the future.

Can I not still discuss the matter?

As I've mentioned before, I'm surrounded by the topic every day at work and in pretty much every meeting we have. How this might change vehicle ownership and use will impact me quite considerably, so its progress is of interest to me, even if the politics and practicalities don't necessarily...

3 minutes ago, Ttaskmaster said:

Can I not still discuss the matter?

You 100% can. 

EV's are the way forward and at this time I'm only living the experience through other member's eyes. That will change going forward though.

@Ttaskmaster

 It is good to talk and look at subjects and then who are spinning a story and then what is in it for them and are the paid to be advocates for or advocates against.

There is a lot of money being made with the introduction of EV's and lots is coming from the UK tax payers freely given out to the chosen few that really do not need or deserve the money being thrown at them.

 

Free enterprise is what is needed with the backing of the Government being given out fairly.

On 01/12/2020 at 15:03, wyx087 said:

(2030 is ban on [sales of new] ICE only vehicles, 5 years later ban on all [sales of new] vehicles with ICE inside) 

Important clarifications added inside square brackets, as I understand the reality to be.

 

People shouldn't be scaremongered into thinking they won't be allowed to drive anything but EVs and hybrids on the roads ten years from now, that's just not true. After all, if you buy a petrol/diesel car in 2029 you're going to be rather cross if you can only use it for one year...

Edited 4 December, 20205 yr by Wino