downhill/descend assist mode of off-road mode, a bit jerky

[JayLibove]

So, downhill assist/ descent mode of off-road mode in my Octavia MkIII combi Scout seems a bit .. jerky. Like the downhill autopilot gets verrrry nervous when the speed isn't quite right and tends to mash the brake instead of touch it gently. In short, I can maintain downhill speed much, much more comfortably that the assistant does. And that surprises me.

What do you think of your Scouts' off-road mode downhill assist? Do you find that it does a nice, smooth, comfortable job of holding the speed? Or is it a bit jerky?

Any way to smooth it out - adjust the programming/ settings to allow for a little more variation in speed in exchange for more gentle braking?

thanks.

(2020 model year MkIII, 2.0 DSG-7, 135kW/184CV)

 

[Ootohere]

?

How steep is the terrain your are using it on and what kind of surface?

[JayLibove]

Hi @e-Roottoot, I've tried this on rough unpaved road, good unpaved road, and good cement paved road. Gradients, hard to say - 10-15%? 

The worst that I noticed was actually on the slightly steeper, well paved cement road, although another day on a similar road it wasn't too bad (though it still wasn't nearly as smooth as my own foot on the brake).

 

[Ootohere]

?

So was the use of 'Offroad mode' actually required rather than just choosing a lower gear and using the brakes if the tyres had traction?

[JayLibove]

In these cases, the use of off-road mode and descent control was purely to test the hill/descent feature.

(In fact, driving on a deeply rutted, snow-covered [but not particularly steep] road a couple of days ago, I didn't even bother putting the car into off-road mode at all.)

[ScoutCJB]

Mine was smooth and I used it a number of times on the switchback sections of Hard Knott Pass in dry weather and on more local roads in snow.

[JayLibove]

On 08/12/2020 at 23:52, ScoutCJB said:

Mine was smooth and I used it a number of times on the switchback sections of Hard Knott Pass in dry weather and on more local roads in snow.

Hi ScoutCJB, what year, engine, and transmission do (did?) you have? thanks.

[ScoutCJB]

7 hours ago, JayLibove said:

Hi ScoutCJB, what year, engine, and transmission do (did?) you have? thanks.

It was a 2.0D manual (Euro 6)

[Ootohere]

Comparing apples and pears then as the OP has a DSG.

[varaderoguy]

I've have a DSG (2019 Scout) and I've had a 2016 car (Scout 6 speed manual). 

 

Tyres will also have a lot to do with the way the car handles itself.  You will get more grip with M+S tyres than standard summer tyres when it gets cold and icy.  My personal opinion is that the OEM Pirelli summer tyres are great until it they get cold.  The sensors and hill-descent stuff can only do so much with the grip it has.    

[JayLibove]

9 hours ago, varaderoguy said:

I've have a DSG (2019 Scout) and I've had a 2016 car (Scout 6 speed manual). 

 

Tyres will also have a lot to do with the way the car handles itself.  You will get more grip with M+S tyres than standard summer tyres when it gets cold and icy.  My personal opinion is that the OEM Pirelli summer tyres are great until it they get cold.  The sensors and hill-descent stuff can only do so much with the grip it has.    

Good point. My tests were, first, where I specifically noticed that I just plain didn't like the way that descent mode worked, were with the default summer tires (not, in my case Pirellis; my car came with Goodyear "EfficientGrip Performance" tires, which actually are GREAT for summer on good pavement. Really quiet and smooth. But, perhaps, not at all good on more challenging surfaces. Although, one of the tests was on excellent (just, steep) concrete, so it shouldn't have given any tires any difficulty.

The next test, where I still wasn't completely satisfied with the descent mode, was after I swapped these summer tires for Michelin CrossClimate+ M+S tires.

I'll do more tests over time, and report back.

thanks, all.

 

[ScoutCJB]

On 10/12/2020 at 09:11, varaderoguy said:

I've have a DSG (2019 Scout) and I've had a 2016 car (Scout 6 speed manual). 

 

Tyres will also have a lot to do with the way the car handles itself.  You will get more grip with M+S tyres than standard summer tyres when it gets cold and icy.  My personal opinion is that the OEM Pirelli summer tyres are great until it they get cold.  The sensors and hill-descent stuff can only do so much with the grip it has.    

 

Id used mine on my summer tyres (Uniroyal Rainsport 2's) and Winter tyres (Continental Wintercontact 860's) and not aware of any difference.  Additionaly I've used it in my current auto, whilst not a 2.0DSG its fine as well.

[JayLibove]

Thanks everyone. I'll do more tests, and also Skoda Spain have contacted me about the feedback I'd provided about this issue to the dealer and they (Skoda Spain) are raising the question to Skoda (the brand, engineering). Not sure if they'll actually get back to me, but if they do, and when I have done more tests of my own, I'll come back here with information.

 

[JayLibove]

So I had the opportunity yesterday to test again, on a concrete road in excellent condition, dry and clean, moderately steep (10% ?), and the downhill assist performed badly.

I got a call from Skoda's Spain national customer service office, only confirming what the delivering dealer's shop manager had told me - that there is no configuration or adjustment for this feature, and that my car lacked no software updates.

So the next step will be for me to set up an appointment with the shop to have them experience it for themselves and tell me if they think I'm right that it should be more smooth, or if I'm just expecting too much.

I'll keep you informed.

 

[Kenny R]

Think the clue is in the name, my Kodiaq has a warning that off road mode is only to be used off road and not to be used on normal roads.

[JayLibove]

Interesting. Here's what the A7 Octavia Scout manual has to say about Offroad mode:

"Mode Offroad
Read and observe on page 241 first.
The mode Offroad is suitable for driving outside paved roads.
Further information » page 213, Offroadmode."

 

(Page 241 is just a brief overview of the existence of Drive Mode Selection, and a mention of on what vehicles certain of the Modes exist; in particular, for the Octavia, Offroad exists only on the Scout).

 

Page 213 includes the same notice that you see for your Kodiaq:

"■ Offroad mode is not designed for use on common roads."

 

This of course leads to the question of what Skoda things is a "common road".

I suspect that 10%+ descents on lightly corrugated concrete pavement is not a "common" road.

 

In any case, why would we expect my particular vehicle's downhill assist/ descent control feature to be jerky when on such a road, just from reading "■ Offroad mode is not designed for use on common roads."?

The description of Hill Descent Assistant says that a road must have sufficient adherence. So as far as the requirements for this feature, a steep, well-paved concrete road would be ok.

Looking at other aspects of Offroad mode, to try to find anything that should suggest that a not-"common" (but also not-"wildly slippery rocky steep uneven just-barely-within-the-Scout's-capabilities") road should make the Hill Desent Assistant behave in a jerky fashion, we see that in Offroad mode the ESC allows a little bit of over- and under-steering, which isn't relevant to this case; Traction Control/ ASR in Offroad mode allows a little bit of wheel slip - again, not relevant to this case; EDS Offroad mode WOULD behave more harshly - IF the condition required it ("A spinning wheel or wheels are braked earlier and with more force than with the intervention of the standard EDS system."), but that's explicitly not the case on this well-paved steep concrete road; and finally ABS in Offroad mode allows a small amount of wheel-locking in order to help accumulate a small pile of material on/over which to (re-)gain some traction - again, not relevant to our current case.

 

So, why would "Offroad mode is not designed for use on common roads." suggest that on this perhaps edge-case road the Hill Descent Assistant (on my car, not as reported by other owners) would be jerky?

 

I'll arrange to demonstrate it to the service department and see what they say. Though since they'll have seen very few Scouts here, I hope that their experience on Kodiaqs, Tarracos, etc, gives them enough for comparison.

 

[Rodge]

10% (1:10) is not particularly steep. Many main roads in the UK are steeper than this. Some are much steeper, for example Sutton Bank at 25% (1:4).

It's clear from the quotes above that by a "common road" they mean a paved road, and the manual you've quoted says that it is suitable for driving away from paved roads. "Off-road" one might say. So not on a concrete road. Perhaps on grass, mud or gravel, at gradients of 20% or steeper. You're not going to lose traction on concrete at 10% unless it's icy.

[JayLibove]

Hi @Rodge, what you say is true, of course.

The question remains, why would we expect the Hill Descent Assistant - a thing meant to hold a specific speed so that the driver may concentrate on other things - to behave _worse_ on a _better_-than-it-could-be road? And, this still doesn't explain why it behaves worse for me than for other Scout owners, and worse than what I experienced of what I assume to be the same technology in another VW-group car (a 2020 Seat Tarraco 4WD)?

[Ootohere]

Descent assist.

Allows you to use the brakes if you want.  What other things are you wanting to concentrate on other than actually driving the car.

 

Going off road and descending, feet off pedals let the car take you down controlling the speed. Very different thing.

Offroad-Road Mode.   Snow Mode. 

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/487562-offroad-snow-mode

 

[JayLibove]

Hi @e-Roottoot, I think we may be talking about different combinations of features, which Skoda may package one way on one vehicle and another way on other vehicles.

Here's what the 2020 A7 Scout manual says about Offroad mode:

"Offroad mode includes functions that help to overcome routes that are difficult to navigate when travelling on non-paved roads.

The following functions are integrated into Offroad mode.
 Hill descent assistant 
 ESC Offroad 
 ASR Offroad 
 EDS Offroad 
 ABS Offroad"

 

As far as I can tell, these feature - particularly Hill descent assist - are ONLY available when offroad mode is enabled.

 

Moving on to what the manual says about Hill descent assist:

"The hill descent assistant (hereinafter referred to as assist system), with its automatic braking action on all wheels, ensures a constant speed is maintained on a steep slope when driving forwards and reversing.

 

The assist system is automatically engaged under the following conditions.
The engine is running.
* For vehicles with Manual transmission the shift lever is in the neutral position and or the 1st, 2nd, 3rd gear, or reverse gear is engaged.
* On vehicles with an automatic transmission, the selector lever is in the R, N, D/S position or in the Tiptronic position.
* The downhill gradient is at least 10 % (when driving over sleepers, the limit can briefly drop to 8 %).
* Neither the accelerator nor the brake pedal is pressed.

 

Driving speed
Initiate the downhill descent at a reasonable speed of approx. 2 - 30 km/h, the assist system constantly maintains this speed as you travel downhill.
If a forwards or reverse gear is engaged on vehicles with a manual transmission, the speed must be high enough to avoid “stalling the engine”.
The driving speed can be changed by pressing the brake or accelerator pedal.
This is true even if the shift lever is in the neutral position and the selector lever in the N position. Engagement of the assist system is resumed after the pedal is released.
WARNING
For the correct operation of the assistant the road surface must be sufficiently adherent. The assistant cannot properly fulfil its function on slushy soil due to physical reasons (e.g. ice or mud). - there is a risk of an accident!"

 

So, we can only get hill descent assist when offroad mode is enabled.

Hill descent assist is limited to what I'll describe as "less challenging" offroad conditions (as the manual says, above, that hill descent assist won't work in particularly slippery conditions).

 

My questions here related to hill descent assistant specifically, not to offroad mode generally. The relation seems to be imposed (by Skoda, on the 2020 Scout, at least) by making Hill descent assist only enablable when offroad mode is enabled.

 

None of the above suggests that hill descent assist should NOT work well on a well-paved (but steep, defined above by Skoda as being at least 10%) road.

And none of the above explains why my 2020 Scout's hill descent assistant is jerky, while others have reported not encountering this, and when I used another recent VW-group vehicle (2020 Tarraco)'s hill descent assist I found it smooth.

 

I'd appreciate if we could set aside the arguments that I shouldn't be doing this (unless someone can find an actual reason why that's the case; simply claiming that I'm "not off-road" when I'm on a steep, well-paved concrete track" is an opinion, not an engineering or statement-by-the-manufacturer reason/justification), and focus on what engineering cause could result in this - other than possibly that my specific vehicle's hill descent assistant maybe isn't working correctly.

 

thank you

 

[ScoutCJB]

On 18/12/2020 at 18:50, JayLibove said:

 

None of the above suggests that hill descent assist should NOT work well on a well-paved (but steep, defined above by Skoda as being at least 10%) road.

And none of the above explains why my 2020 Scout's hill descent assistant is jerky, while others have reported not encountering this, and when I used another recent VW-group vehicle (2020 Tarraco)'s hill descent assist I found it smooth.

 

I'd appreciate if we could set aside the arguments that I shouldn't be doing this (unless someone can find an actual reason why that's the case; simply claiming that I'm "not off-road" when I'm on a steep, well-paved concrete track" is an opinion, not an engineering or statement-by-the-manufacturer reason/justification), and focus on what engineering cause could result in this - other than possibly that my specific vehicle's hill descent assistant maybe isn't working correctly.

 

thank you

 

 

The hill decent (activated by 'off road button' on my manual 2015 Scout on 17"s, on a tarmac'd route with an average 14% gradient (maximum 22%) works fine and isnt jerky.  The same route with hill decent activated by 'allroad' setting in my Auto A6 on 20"s work fine and isnt jerky either.   

 

I used it to maintain speed on a single track route with many switchbacks and numerous steep drops (the sort you'd have time to ring the insurance company before you got to the bottom).

[Emird]

On 21/12/2020 at 11:07, ScoutCJB said:

 

The hill decent (activated by 'off road button' on my manual 2015 Scout on 17"s, on a tarmac'd route with an average 14% gradient (maximum 22%) works fine and isnt jerky.  The same route with hill decent activated by 'allroad' setting in my Auto A6 on 20"s work fine and isnt jerky either.   

 

I used it to maintain speed on a single track route with many switchbacks and numerous steep drops (the sort you'd have time to ring the insurance company before you got to the bottom).

HI, can you post the picture of  the 'off road button'?

 I have scout 2015 but I am not sure what button is for off road.

thanks

[3rdoctavia]

Hi Emird, the off road function is one of the driving modes you can select with the choices being Eco, Normal, sport, and Off Road  .... click the Mode Button in front of the gear stick and select Off Road on the display.

 

I have a 2016 Scout manual 2.0tdi and generally use this mode when conditions are not ideal such as wet grass, gravel, mud etc and have found when the Hill Decent kicks in its generally good at holding the speed steady.

 

I tend to think the Off road mode makes the drive system more "alert" as you are telling it that the conditions are tricky. So all I can assume is that the situation the OP is describing is due to the over alert system activating when in reality the road conditions don't require it (and normal mode would be more suitable).

 

It also tends to be used at slower speeds in lower gears which due to the torque at low gears means driving can be jerky anyway especially when you have told the car it is "off road" when it isn't.

 

Generally I've found HDC works well, but only works in off road mode, and flashes red on the dashboard when it activates. I wouldn't say it was wonderful as I've never truly taken the car full off road but it's been helpful when it have activated.

[Emird]

25 minutes ago, 3rdoctavia said:

Hi Emird, the off road function is one of the driving modes you can select with the choices being Eco, Normal, sport, and Off Road  .... click the Mode Button in front of the gear stick and select Off Road on the display.

 

I have a 2016 Scout manual 2.0tdi and generally use this mode when conditions are not ideal such as wet grass, gravel, mud etc and have found when the Hill Decent kicks in its generally good at holding the speed steady.

 

I tend to think the Off road mode makes the drive system more "alert" as you are telling it that the conditions are tricky. So all I can assume is that the situation the OP is describing is due to the over alert system activating when in reality the road conditions don't require it (and normal mode would be more suitable).

 

It also tends to be used at slower speeds in lower gears which due to the torque at low gears means driving can be jerky anyway especially when you have told the car it is "off road" when it isn't.

 

Generally I've found HDC works well, but only works in off road mode, and flashes red on the dashboard when it activates. I wouldn't say it was wonderful as I've never truly taken the car full off road but it's been helpful when it have activated.

thanks a lot for the reply.
I recently bought a Scout 2015 2.0 TDI 135 KW with 6 speed DSG transmission and I have the option / button to select driving modes but there is no "off road" only Normal, Sprt, Eco and individual.

I read somewhere that I may have a special button for off road, but probably this car does not have "off road" mode.

Emir

[JayLibove]

(I'm the OP) My 2020 Scout has Off-road as a selectable mode (Eco, Normal/Drive, Eco, Off-road) on the infotainment panel screen which appears when I press the physical Mode button:

 

I observe (see details below) that Off-road mode actually makes the car in some senses LESS "sensitive", as it explicitly allows a bit more wheel slip, in order to avoid the anti-whatever systems making the car completely unable to move in the case where lots of stuff is sliding all over the place under the wheels.

I've driven my 2020 Scout up a moderately rutted snow, slush, and some ice covered mountain road, in normal drive mode, several times. I routinely drive on dirt roads (nothing too spectacular, though at times the 4x4 has given me the ability to pass where a front-wheel drive car might have had difficulty, and I appreciate those extra 3cm of ground clearance).

I've not even bothered to turn on Off-road mode since the very first months after I got the car new and was playing with it. 

 

The manual says:

The following functions are integrated into Offroad mode.
▶ Hill descent assistant 
▶ ESC Offroad
▶ ASR Offroad
▶ EDS Offroad
▶ ABS Offroad

 

Hill Descent Assist
The hill descent assistant (hereinafter referred to as assist system), with its automatic braking action on all wheels, ensures a constant speed is maintained on a steep slope when driving forwards and reversing.
During an intervention, the white warning light  in the instrument cluster lights up.
The assist system is automatically engaged under the following conditions:
* The engine is running.
* For vehicles with Manual transmission the shift lever is in the neutral position and or the 1st, 2nd, 3rd gear, or reverse gear is engaged.
* On vehicles with an automatic transmission, the selector lever is in the R, N, D/S position or in the Tiptronic position.
* The downhill gradient is at least 10 % (when driving over sleepers, the limit can briefly drop to 8 %).
* Neither the accelerator nor the brake pedal is pressed.
Driving speed
Initiate the downhill descent at a reasonable speed of approx. 2 - 30 km/h, the assist system constantly maintains this speed as you travel downhill.
If a forwards or reverse gear is engaged on vehicles with a manual transmission, the speed must be high enough to avoid “stalling the engine”.
The driving speed can be changed by pressing the brake or accelerator pedal.
This is true even if the shift lever is in the neutral position and the selector lever in the N position. Engagement of the assist system is resumed after the pedal is released.

 

ESC Offroad
ESC Offroad makes driving on dirt roads easier, as no ESC interventions occur when the vehicle is slightly over or under steered.

 

ASR Offroad
TCS Offroad makes starting and driving on an unpaved surface easier as it partially allows wheel-spin.
Note
When disabled, TCS » page 211 Offroad mode works without the support of TCS Offroad.

(The manual doesn't explain why the section is called "ASR" but the text of the section use "TCS". I suppose that TCS is Traction Control System. I guess that ASR is Anti-Skid somethingoranother. I guess they're equivalent?)

 

EDS Offroad
EDS Offroad supports the driver when driving on a surface with different grip under the drive wheels or when driving over bumps.
A spinning wheel or wheels are braked earlier and with more force than with the intervention of the standard EDS system.

 

ABS Offroad
ABS Offroad supports the driver when braking on an unpaved surface (e.g. gravel, snow etc.).
The system generated by a controlled locking of the wheels braked wheel before a “wedge” of piled material, which shortens the braking distance.
Maximum system efficiency is achieved when the front wheels are in the straight ahead position.