Hi folks, as above- thinking of getting JB4 for my 280 superb. I have been in touch with guys from BMS technical department regarding DSG map and whether at all is needed for their basic Map 1 or 2 and they said no, not wanting to be disrespectful but is that true? Box is 6 speed and last thing i want is to go bang while in warranty. What are you opinions or experience please? 

Edited 22 February, 20215 yr by MarioVrs

Anybody please???

No DSG remap is "needed" per se for the typical stage 1 power levels. However depending on a) how the map is set and b) the conditions and driving scenarios it could be that the gearbox becomes jerkier/less smooth in certain occassions due to the added torque going through.

It's not something you can't do post-tuning though if you find out the behaviour of the DSG has changed considerably (doubt it unless you really beat it everywhere) and on the DQ250 6-speed like yours it's less of a "need" than in the DQ381 I'd say based on my experience.

the dq250 box is supposed to be good for 400nm, but many people have gone beyond this and it's been ok

When i had my ecu stage one high torque map done, i never bothered with a dsg tune and i didn't encounter any problems either.

Same here. Stg 1 Revo remap done in June last year with 360bhp & circa 480nm torque (mixing my units of measurement). No DSG remap & no problems with the stock 6 speed DSG. Up changes in sport mode at full tilt are a bit more aggressive but nothing major. No intake or exhaust changes either - yet.

Like many others I've not done much mileage since last year but all good so far.

 

2 hours ago, newbie69 said:

No DSG remap is "needed" per se for the typical stage 1 power levels. However depending on a) how the map is set and b) the conditions and driving scenarios it could be that the gearbox becomes jerkier/less smooth in certain occassions due to the added torque going through.

It's not something you can't do post-tuning though if you find out the behaviour of the DSG has changed considerably (doubt it unless you really beat it everywhere) and on the DQ250 6-speed like yours it's less of a "need" than in the DQ381 I'd say based on my experience.

Definitely won't be beating it everywhere... Its more just about having bit of extra power when needed, might do occasional launch even that's very sporadic as my boy racing days are over.

Would you say the 6 speed dq250 is more robust than dq381? Read mixed opinions...

54 minutes ago, Bigeater said:

the dq250 box is supposed to be good for 400nm, but many people have gone beyond this and it's been ok

When i had my ecu stage one high torque map done, i never bothered with a dsg tune and i didn't encounter any problems either.

I see...so with 450ish nm i should be fine? It won't obviously be constant figure as most of a times i have it in D-mode and drive it sensibly.

My plan is to do JB4 box, cat back exhaust and turbo inlet pipe...for now😁 been waiting 3 years to do anything lol

2 minutes ago, MarioVrs said:

Definitely won't be beating it everywhere... Its more just about having bit of extra power when needed, might do occasional launch even that's very sporadic as my boy racing days are over.

Would you say the 6 speed dq250 is more robust than dq381? Read mixed opinions...

DQ250 is a solid gearbox, no concerns really with handing extra torque up to at least stage 2 levels (500-520Nm).

DQ381 is supposed to be even more robust but untill tried during similar years/mileage as the DQ250 has been through we can't say for sure. 

28 minutes ago, Colin170CR said:

Same here. Stg 1 Revo remap done in June last year with 360bhp & circa 480nm torque (mixing my units of measurement). No DSG remap & no problems with the stock 6 speed DSG. Up changes in sport mode at full tilt are a bit more aggressive but nothing major. No intake or exhaust changes either - yet.

Like many others I've not done much mileage since last year but all good so far.

 

That's good to hear...my plan is jb4+ turbo intake pipe+ cat back exhaust.

How is it in normal driving in D-mode? Still noticeable power increase?

2 minutes ago, newbie69 said:

DQ250 is a solid gearbox, no concerns really with handing extra torque up to at least stage 2 levels (500-520Nm).

DQ381 is supposed to be even more robust but untill tried during similar years/mileage as the DQ250 has been through we can't say for sure. 

That's good to know...I'm just trying to do it safely and based on where i live it will have to be something like jb4. Been looking at BSR boxes but what puts me off is the resale value....with remap you pay and thats it, money is gone. But with something like jb4 that's been tried&tested you can still get some money back if you get bored/sell car/ or are not happy with it.

There is a garage over here that does Celtic tuning maps but not sure i could trust them in wanting to put 500nm through dsg box just with stage 1 👀

1 minute ago, MarioVrs said:

That's good to hear...my plan is jb4+ turbo intake pipe+ cat back exhaust.

How is it in normal driving in D-mode? Still noticeable power increase?

Very noticable.

The extra 80bhp & 130nm over stock is more than my wife's car has in total . The extra torque in D means it doesn't always have to drop a cog or two when pressing on. The extra muscle just launches the car up the road. I find myself using D mode more than I used to. S mode to get on / off roundabouts & onto motorway slip roads but D most of the time & make use of the extra torque. I don't use the paddle shifters or manual tiptronic much either. I have experimented with Eco mode & coasting but I gave up with that as I'm used to the engine braking effect to slow the car down. I often knock it into S when approaching lights & roundabout to get more engine braking effect. 

Being on Jersey there can't be many roads where you can exploit the full potential of the 280 can there? 

I tend not to drive at high speeds, just quicker to get up to the target speed.

Mpg has stayed about the same. That said, due to lockdown, I haven't done any long runs in it since it was remapped. Currently it's averaging 25mpg (short local runs) & the best I've seen while I was working & commuting 80 miles per day was 36-38mpg. 

I am considering intake / filter changes & perhaps a mid silencer delete (for a bit of extra rumble) but I will keep the stock tail pipes to keep its appearance standard. It would be interesting to hear what yours is like after your planned mods.      

Someone please correct me but do the boxes not limit the torque?  If the engine is tuned to 500nm does it actually pass 500 to the wheels?

14 minutes ago, MarkyG82 said:

Someone please correct me but do the boxes not limit the torque?  If the engine is tuned to 500nm does it actually pass 500 to the wheels?

There is always some transmission loss so most tuners quote power and torque at the crankshaft rather than the wheels for comparison purposes because manufacturers always quote the higher figures. For example a standard 280 with say 280bhp crank power may only have 230bhp going to the wheels but a stage 1 280 with 360bhp (typical figure attained) will have at least 300bhp going to the wheels so there is still a significant gain. Same with torque going from 350nm standard and 514nm (in my 272 at stage 1 tune) the actual torque going to the wheels will be approximately 300nm in the standard car yet probably 450nm in the tuned car to answer your question. My 272 had so much torque low down in the rev range it could go uphill in 7th gear at as little as 42mph yet my current diesel with standard 320nm of torque changes from 7th to 6th gear when going uphill at 55mph despite weighing 160kg less than the 272.

4 minutes ago, shyVRS245 said:

There is always some transmission loss .... Same with torque going from 350nm standard and 514nm (in my 272 at stage 1 tune) the actual torque going to the wheels will be approximately 300nm in the standard car yet probably 450nm in the tuned car to answer your question. My 272 had so much torque low down in the rev range it could go uphill in 7th gear at as little as 42mph yet my current diesel with standard 320nm of torque changes from 7th to 6th gear when going uphill at 55mph despite weighing 160kg less than the 272.

 

Is that measured on a Dyno or quoted by the tuner?

 

I think many tuned bigger engines are capable of higher gear tugs up a hill.  The dsg however often changes down a gear to keep it in safer torque/vibration Vs revs

 

26 minutes ago, Colin170CR said:

Very noticable.

The extra 80bhp & 130nm over stock is more than my wife's car has in total . The extra torque in D means it doesn't always have to drop a cog or two when pressing on. The extra muscle just launches the car up the road. I find myself using D mode more than I used to. S mode to get on / off roundabouts & onto motorway slip roads but D most of the time & make use of the extra torque. I don't use the paddle shifters or manual tiptronic much either. I have experimented with Eco mode & coasting but I gave up with that as I'm used to the engine braking effect to slow the car down. I often knock it into S when approaching lights & roundabout to get more engine braking effect. 

Being on Jersey there can't be many roads where you can exploit the full potential of the 280 can there? 

I tend not to drive at high speeds, just quicker to get up to the target speed.

Mpg has stayed about the same. That said, due to lockdown, I haven't done any long runs in it since it was remapped. Currently it's averaging 25mpg (short local runs) & the best I've seen while I was working & commuting 80 miles per day was 36-38mpg. 

I am considering intake / filter changes & perhaps a mid silencer delete (for a bit of extra rumble) but I will keep the stock tail pipes to keep its appearance standard. It would be interesting to hear what yours is like after your planned mods.      

That sounds good mate, yeah i also mostly use it in D, maybe once a week i stick it in Sport. Definitely no to manual or paddle shift over here. Been to Austria couple of times in it and paddles are awesome on motorway.

Lot of people think that being in jersey there isn't much roads to play on. There is plenty as long as you are careful and sensible. But recently police are all over speeders due to idiots in fiestas and clios...but as you say for me its mostly about getting to speed target quicker.

Same here with lockdown now only using car on weekend as during a week i use company car( i work for skoda dealership believe it or not)

Car currently has 18k since i had it from new, thats with 2 trips to austria and czech republic both approx 2500 miles.

I would be careful about centre resonator delete, having read experiences from other forums it does not work well on Superb being long car compared to S3 or Golf R. Guys who done it reported droning issues and reverted back to stock centre resonator. 

Also my worry with intake would be that it makes it sound like darth vader being sat in engine bay👀 

So far i found these two systems both from Germany

The latter system from Fox is cheaper but there is no option in changing tailpipes, it only comes with 2x90mm on each side and requires cutting into rear diffuser (not keen) also if you look on their website the fit looks rather odd with one side seemingly sagging more.

With Friedrich system you get to choose from like 100 different tailpipe designs. 

Hoping to get it ordered this or next week. Will definitely post results here

28 minutes ago, MarkyG82 said:

 

Is that measured on a Dyno or quoted by the tuner?

 

I think many tuned bigger engines are capable of higher gear tugs up a hill.  The dsg however often changes down a gear to keep it in safer torque/vibration Vs revs

 

Normal transmission losses if you've watched as many dyno runs as me you can see somewhere in the range of 20-25%.

14 minutes ago, MarioVrs said:

That sounds good mate, yeah i also mostly use it in D, maybe once a week i stick it in Sport. Definitely no to manual or paddle shift over here. Been to Austria couple of times in it and paddles are awesome on motorway.

Lot of people think that being in jersey there isn't much roads to play on. There is plenty as long as you are careful and sensible. But recently police are all over speeders due to idiots in fiestas and clios...but as you say for me its mostly about getting to speed target quicker.

Same here with lockdown now only using car on weekend as during a week i use company car( i work for skoda dealership believe it or not)

Car currently has 18k since i had it from new, thats with 2 trips to austria and czech republic both approx 2500 miles.

I would be careful about centre resonator delete, having read experiences from other forums it does not work well on Superb being long car compared to S3 or Golf R. Guys who done it reported droning issues and reverted back to stock centre resonator. 

Also my worry with intake would be that it makes it sound like darth vader being sat in engine bay👀 

So far i found these two systems both from Germany

The latter system from Fox is cheaper but there is no option in changing tailpipes, it only comes with 2x90mm on each side and requires cutting into rear diffuser (not keen) also if you look on their website the fit looks rather odd with one side seemingly sagging more.

With Friedrich system you get to choose from like 100 different tailpipe designs. 

Hoping to get it ordered this or next week. Will definitely post results here

Plenty of DSG farts on both video's if that floats your boat.

5 minutes ago, shyVRS245 said:

Plenty of DSG farts on both video's if that floats your boat.

Absolutely😛 personally i prefer sound of the Fox system but there is few points that makes me bit concerned

1-when i asked about fitment they replied-you might have to modify(cut) rear bumper but you will see when you receive it...not keen especially if its coming from so far abroad

2-on their site the fit doesn't seem 100% perfect (one side seems to be hanging lower)

3- no customer reviews, feedback or anything

1 hour ago, MarkyG82 said:

Someone please correct me but do the boxes not limit the torque?  If the engine is tuned to 500nm does it actually pass 500 to the wheels?

 

50 minutes ago, shyVRS245 said:

There is always some transmission loss so most tuners quote power and torque at the crankshaft rather than the wheels for comparison purposes because manufacturers always quote the higher figures. For example a standard 280 with say 280bhp crank power may only have 230bhp going to the wheels but a stage 1 280 with 360bhp (typical figure attained) will have at least 300bhp going to the wheels so there is still a significant gain. Same with torque going from 350nm standard and 514nm (in my 272 at stage 1 tune) the actual torque going to the wheels will be approximately 300nm in the standard car yet probably 450nm in the tuned car to answer your question. My 272 had so much torque low down in the rev range it could go uphill in 7th gear at as little as 42mph yet my current diesel with standard 320nm of torque changes from 7th to 6th gear when going uphill at 55mph despite weighing 160kg less than the 272.

I think Marky was referring to the gearbox limiting torque, not drivetrain losses from crank to wheels which is also true, but a different thing.

Yes the gearbox has torque limiters in place to prevent too much torque getting through. This is one of the reasons you tune the DSG to raise those limiters as especially for stage 2 it can be that you are not seeing what the engine is making if hitting the limit especially in low rpm.

However, with a tuning box, the gearbox never actually "sees" any extra torque as the ECU is tricked into thinking it's working within the OEM parameters.

Just now, MarioVrs said:

Absolutely😛 personally i prefer sound of the Fox system but there is few points that makes me bit concerned

1-when i asked about fitment they replied-you might have to modify(cut) rear bumper but you will see when you receive it...not keen especially if its coming from so far abroad

2-on their site the fit doesn't seem 100% perfect (one side seems to be hanging lower)

3- no customer reviews, feedback or anything

I prefer the Golf R style 4 round pipes to the aftermarket look of the AMG square pipes. Just my opinion for what it's worth. On my 336bhp Octavia Vrs I retained the original exhaust finishers like my 272 but the whole exhaust was upgraded to a 3" Milltek with sports cat and although expensive at around £1,800 including the downpipe (£600 alone) it sounded very nice.

9 minutes ago, shyVRS245 said:

I prefer the Golf R style 4 round pipes to the aftermarket look of the AMG square pipes. Just my opinion for what it's worth. On my 336bhp Octavia Vrs I retained the original exhaust finishers like my 272 but the whole exhaust was upgraded to a 3" Milltek with sports cat and although expensive at around £1,800 including the downpipe (£600 alone) it sounded very nice.

Absolutely agree with you buddy. I want to go for 2x80mm straight cut tailpipes. 

Would love to get system from within UK but even Milltek said they don't offer anything cat back for superb however their downpipes would fit superb. 

Have you got any videos of your Octavia with milltek system?

Edited 23 February, 20215 yr by MarioVrs

16 minutes ago, MarioVrs said:

Absolutely agree with you buddy. I want to go for 2x80mm straight cut tailpipes. 

Would love to get system from within UK but even Milltek said they don't offer anything cat back for superb however their downpipes would fit superb. 

Have you got any videos of your Octavia with milltek system?

No but it was captured on a track day at Snetterton passing a few cars including a Caterham which was amusing for me but less so for the lightweight track car. Made Clio 182's look very slow as well. About 120mph on the straights but not as fast as the 660bhp Nissan GT-R's doing 145mph on the same straight. Try searching Briskoda Track Day Snetterton 2018 November might see and hear it. Several members on here have been in it and all commented favourably on the induction and exhaust noises (very Golf R like to my ears). Traction was an issue obviously on wet roads and from a standing start but once rolling I would say from 60-100mph it was as fast as my 272 with 360bhp and crazy top speed (indicated 177mph (283kph).

3 hours ago, MarioVrs said:

That's good to know...I'm just trying to do it safely and based on where i live it will have to be something like jb4. Been looking at BSR boxes but what puts me off is the resale value....with remap you pay and thats it, money is gone. But with something like jb4 that's been tried&tested you can still get some money back if you get bored/sell car/ or are not happy with it.

There is a garage over here that does Celtic tuning maps but not sure i could trust them in wanting to put 500nm through dsg box just with stage 1 👀

Celtic tuning do some very very good work. I would hands down install their map before I’d fit any box, even the JB4. Go and speak to them first before you make your own mind up. I had one of their maps on my last Merc, which happily ran basically 400bhp and just over 1000Nm of torque for many years without causing any issues. Has to be worth at least a chat with them about it. 

32 minutes ago, UndertheRadar said:

Celtic tuning do some very very good work. I would hands down install their map before I’d fit any box, even the JB4. Go and speak to them first before you make your own mind up. I had one of their maps on my last Merc, which happily ran basically 400bhp and just over 1000Nm of torque for many years without causing any issues. Has to be worth at least a chat with them about it. 

Thanks for your input mate...much appreciated.

Was that generic map or custom? Guy who does it over here only does generic. 

29 minutes ago, MarioVrs said:

Thanks for your input mate...much appreciated.

Was that generic map or custom? Guy who does it over here only does generic. 

It was generic. I was running out of time to make the boat to let him custom map it. I had it run Once I was home and had more time to see what it was making. The map was never adjusted, I was just interested to see what the old pig had gained.