*Mod Comment* - This conversation has been split from another thread in the tyre zone - https://www.briskoda.net/forums/topic/484098-bridgestone-weather-control-a005/

 

*** Original post Below ***

 

What you asking for will only be relevent to E5 fuel, unless you have diesel, so is now irrelevant as standard petrol is 95 octane E10. And E10 is less efficient so your mpg reduces.

 

https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/advice/emissions/what-is-e10-fuel-and-how-could-it-affect-you/

Edited 4 August, 20214 yr by cheezemonkhai
Clarify after splitting thread.

4 minutes ago, Kenrw8 said:

What you asking for will only be relevent to E5 fuel, unless you have diesel, so is now irrelevant as standard petrol is 95 octane E10. And E10 is less efficient so your mpg reduces.

 

https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/advice/emissions/what-is-e10-fuel-and-how-could-it-affect-you/

I understand that, but it's not here yet, and the data is historical ie over last 12 months or so. All the new fuel will do is introduce an offset to the data, the relative effects of the different tyres will still be apparent.

Edited 30 July, 20214 yr by stever750

E10 fuel is here , I got some today from Tesco. It official standard from now. 

 

Those with cars pre 2011 will have ignition problems. pinking, E5 may be available for a period but it price will escalate

Tesco momentum is E5 whilst unleased is E10

 

 

 

Edited 30 July, 20214 yr by Kenrw8

OK, but the point about historical data is still a valid question.

On 30/07/2021 at 13:01, Kenrw8 said:

E10 fuel is here , I got some today from Tesco. It official standard from now. 

 

Those with cars pre 2011 will have ignition problems. pinking, E5 may be available for a period but it price will escalate

Tesco momentum is E5 whilst unleased is E10

 

 

 

It's not launched in the UK yet, only the logos have been added in preparation? 

 

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-9844767/AA-says-dont-panic-buy-fuel-ahead-September-switchover-E10-petrol.html

Some of the E10 threads from the not distant past.

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/490693-e10-fuels

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/478785-e5-to-e10-petrol-and-skoda-vw-engines-ok-with-e10

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/479590-e10-fuels

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/4724443-e10-petrol

 

 

@Kenrw8 

 You need to be careful when starting Internet Myths.

 

I take it you mean 'Cars pre 2011 'may' have ignition issues.   Not 'will have'.

Many millions of cars pre 2011 are perfectly OK running E10 before manufacturers had to produce engines that could. 

 

?

Are Tesco really displaying misleading or false information on pumps now on E10 being what is being delivered.

What about the Octane, is it showing 95 octane (min) for Unleaded and 99 Octane (min) for Tesco Momentum 99. 

The same 95 ron for Tesco Unleaded be it E5 or E10. 

 

 

Edited 3 August, 20214 yr by e-Roottoot

41 minutes ago, e-Roottoot said:

Some of the E10 threads from the not distant past.

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/490693-e10-fuels

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/478785-e5-to-e10-petrol-and-skoda-vw-engines-ok-with-e10

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/479590-e10-fuels

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/4724443-e10-petrol

 

 

@Kenrw8

 

 

Thanks George useful info. I use a mix of 95 and 99 anyway. Ethanol has a higher octane rating than gasoline so that's one positive. 

But in winter spec fuel those that used ethanol as an octane booster reduced it as it is  hygroscopic.  You pay to buy fuel and energy, if E10 produced less energy then that is an issue but fortunately it has the same Ron / Mon.    97 and 99 super unleaded are the minimum they can put out the pumps as is  95 Ron.  If more fuel is required to cover the same miles when using E10 then that is not 'greener' as it takes more tankers to deliver more fuel to filling stations. 

10 hours ago, e-Roottoot said:

Are Tesco really displaying misleading or false information on pumps now on E10 being what is being delivered.

What about the Octane, is it showing 95 octane (min) for Unleaded and 99 Octane (min) for Tesco Momentum 99. 

The same 95 ron for Tesco Unleaded be it E5 or E10

Tesco have labeled their pumps (BwD)  and selling the 95 Octane as E10. 99 is still labelled as E5,  as I read it E10 is available as 95 octane. 

Edited 3 August, 20214 yr by Kenrw8

7 minutes ago, Kenrw8 said:

Tesco have labeled their pumps (BwD)  and selling the 95 Octane as E10. 99 is still labelled as E5,  as I read it E10 is available as 95 octane. 

Indeed, as stated in the linked article, many places have already added the logos in advance, but that's not yet what is going into your car.

That might be because at anytime the 95 Ron with up to 10% bio might get delivered but Trading Standards should be right on them on that one.  If the customer is getting E5 presently then that is what they should display.  Stickers at the kiosk to be slapped on the pumps  would take staff no more than 20 minutes at the time a tanker arrived to fill tanks with E10.   Tesco or others do not display the prices of fuel as they might be tomorrow, next week or next month. 

Edited 4 August, 20214 yr by e-Roottoot

According to UK Gov, you cannot buy E10 before 1st September, but obviously it might take a few days to empty tanks of old E5 95 RON. Tbh I'm surprised any pump has any kind of sticker on it yet, as it's misleading.

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/fuelling-a-greener-future-e10-petrol-set-for-september-2021-launch

E10 can be sold before September 2021.  But it needs sold as such with clear signs showing it is E10.  I bought E10 in 2009 at Morrisons in Dundee when they were introducing it   Unfortunately I was driving a new 1.6 diesel auto Hyundai with 50 miles on the clock and my mate was the one that pumped in the petrol and I was in the kiosk getting stuff and ready to pay.     PS, they did B30 diesel back then. 

Edited 4 August, 20214 yr by e-Roottoot

E10 is going to be an issue for my 1995 MX5 by all accounts - so I'll have to switch to the higher octane stuff that will remain at E5.

 

Mpg doesn't worry me but the potential effect on other components /hoses etc. does.

2 hours ago, stever750 said:

According to UK Gov, you cannot buy E10 before 1st September, but obviously it might take a few days to empty tanks of old E5 95 RON. Tbh I'm surprised any pump has any kind of sticker on it yet, as it's misleading.

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/fuelling-a-greener-future-e10-petrol-set-for-september-2021-launch

Can't see where it says E10 cannot be bought before September. What I've read indicates it will become available through Summer 2021.

For anyone that keeps brim-to-brim mpg records, any difference in economy should become apparent reasonably rapidly. I'll be looking out for it on our Fabia.

OK, but you have to remember this is a typical UK.Gov website notice with its inherent lack of clarity. It implies it won't be available before September, but I guess that could mean generally available. Tbh, it's not really important, unless you're one of the owners of an incompatible vehicle; therefore you would think it would make sense to have a clear launch date.

26 minutes ago, stever750 said:

you would think it would make sense to have a clear launch date.

Not really. 

Given the amount of petrol stations in the UK, expecting them to switch over on a specific date would be madness. 

 

The gov website states by September and some have already switched..

sorry to be pedantic, but it's clearly IN, not before September. From the UK gov website and the RAC, but I guess you know better, so worth sharing? And you've not read or understood my post, of course you don't switch on one date, you start the replacement from a set date, and over time migrate to the new fuel as the current stocks are used up. It's hardly complicated

 

Motorists across the UK are set to shift to a greener fuel with the introduction of E10 at petrol stations in September 2021.

 

 

When will E10 be introduced in the UK?

E10 petrol is expected to begin appearing at forecourts in September 2021, and this news story carries full details.

While we wait for the arrival of E10 petrol in the UK, drivers are advised to take care when filling up with fuel in France, Germany or Finland. Although the pumps are clearly labelled, it’s important to double-check before filling up.

A few things worth noting about ethanol in relation to its use as a petrol substitute:

• It has a higher octane rating than petrol (around 105-108) so it will ignite earlier in the combustion cycle
• It has a lower energy density than petrol (less energy for a given mass/volume of fuel)

Higher ignition quality can be used to compensate for lower energy density if the engine is tune to suit; some modern engines can adjust ignition timing to match the fuel behaviour. Fuel lights earlier in the cycle so it gets more time to burn, and can burn more completely, releasing more of the fuel's energy. Higher ignition quality can also allow higher compression ratio and higher efficiency, but this has to be built in at the design stage.

 

In blended fuels, the octane rating of the blend is the weighted average of the octane ratings of the individual components. If the UK is still using EN 228 as the standard for petrol, it does not specify a minimum octane rating for the individual components, only for the blend as delivered.

 

In an ideal world, we might like the fuel manufacturers to use the ethanol mandate to increase the ignition quality of the fuel, but the reality is that they'll probably continue to make fuel with 95/97/99 octane rating as the market/regulations dictate, and take advantage of the higher ignition quality of ethanol to balance out the use of lower octane petrol in the blend. Depending on the blend, the potential is there for lower economy but it's difficult to quantify how much.

 

On the rollout, as some posters have pointed out, it takes time to flush through remnants of old fuel from the tanks at a filling station (and at depots/refineries/etc.) so it is probable that there will be some kind of overlap period. I daresay if one were to dig around in the depths of the regulations it will specify how the overlap is to be handled. My guess would be that refineries/depots would be required to change over earlier in the run-up to the market introduction. Marking rules in EN 228  for pumps are that the pump must display the fuel being dispensed from that pump, so if it says E10, then it's likely E10 you'll get. Caveat emptor.

I think if you're the owner of an incompatible vehicle, you'd want to know the date from which it could be E10, so you can do something about it. If you've no idea when E10 is in the pumps, just that it will be everywhere probably by the end of the month, then how can you be sure that you're not putting E10 into a car that is not compatible?  That's not a sensible way to introduce it.

2 minutes ago, chimaera said:

A few things worth noting about ethanol in relation to its use as a petrol substitute:

• It has a higher octane rating than petrol (around 105-108) so it will ignite earlier in the combustion cycle
• It has a lower energy density than petrol (less energy for a given mass/volume of fuel)

Higher ignition quality can be used to compensate for lower energy density if the engine is tune to suit; some modern engines can adjust ignition timing to match the fuel behaviour. Fuel lights earlier in the cycle so it gets more time to burn, and can burn more completely, releasing more of the fuel's energy. Higher ignition quality can also allow higher compression ratio and higher efficiency, but this has to be built in at the design stage.

 

In blended fuels, the octane rating of the blend is the weighted average of the octane ratings of the individual components. If the UK is still using EN 228 as the standard for petrol, it does not specify a minimum octane rating for the individual components, only for the blend as delivered.

 

In an ideal world, we might like the fuel manufacturers to use the ethanol mandate to increase the ignition quality of the fuel, but the reality is that they'll probably continue to make fuel with 95/97/99 octane rating as the market/regulations dictate, and take advantage of the higher ignition quality of ethanol to balance out the use of lower octane petrol in the blend. Depending on the blend, the potential is there for lower economy but it's difficult to quantify how much.

 

On the rollout, as some posters have pointed out, it takes time to flush through remnants of old fuel from the tanks at a filling station (and at depots/refineries/etc.) so it is probable that there will be some kind of overlap period. I daresay if one were to dig around in the depths of the regulations it will specify how the overlap is to be handled. My guess would be that refineries/depots would be required to change over earlier in the run-up to the market introduction. Marking rules in EN 228  for pumps are that the pump must display the fuel being dispensed from that pump, so if it says E10, then it's likely E10 you'll get. Caveat emptor.

At the very least it's a confusing message between the industry and gov. The labels on my tesco pumps are definitely E10, but it's definitely still August. Thankfully I don't own a car that incompatible, but if you did you'd conclude it's a shambles.

There is no need to flush out petrol station tanks for the E10 rollout.

 

My understanding is this. E10 is simply up to 10% Ethanol. So pure unadulterated petrol, or with 1%, 4%, E5 can be pumped under an E10 label. I read some time ago an industry article discussing the new bio ethanol production facility in Lincolnshire and the price/supply of ethanol. It stated that the amount refiners actually put in petrol is highly dependent on the supply and price of ethanol i.e. market conditions.

 

Not sure, but I don't think they are under any obligation by law (yet) to actually put 10% Ethanol in E10, so they will always go for the max profit option.

 

As most of the bio ethanol production comes from maize and other seasonal crops, the price will fluctuate lots with availability. What would they do if there was insufficient Ethanol available, say during a crop failure year?

 

The only reason that E10 is "greener" is that the raw materials such as maize, are in effect are todays active carbon sink, crude oil was an active arbon sink but millions of years ago. The actual amount of CO2 being produced in the production/delivery/use chain is actually somewhat higher, but a proportion of that is being absorbed/offset by growing crops. 

 

There is a large amount of political/scientific smoke and mirrors and guff involved.

 

The fuel standard specifies a maximum content, but that doesn't preclude a government from specifying a minimum as well.

35 minutes ago, stever750 said:

sorry to be pedantic, but it's clearly IN, not before September. From the UK gov website and the RAC, but I guess you know better, so worth sharing? And you've not read or understood my post, of course you don't switch on one date, you start the replacement from a set date, and over time migrate to the new fuel as the current stocks are used up. It's hardly complicated

 

Motorists across the UK are set to shift to a greener fuel with the introduction of E10 at petrol stations in September 2021.

 

 

When will E10 be introduced in the UK?

E10 petrol is expected to begin appearing at forecourts in September 2021, and this news story carries full details.

While we wait for the arrival of E10 petrol in the UK, drivers are advised to take care when filling up with fuel in France, Germany or Finland. Although the pumps are clearly labelled, it’s important to double-check before filling up.

 

Be as pedantic as you like:

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/e10-petrol-explained

 

During summer 2021, the standard (95 octane) petrol grade in Great Britain will become E10. In Northern Ireland, this will happen in early 2022.

 

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/fuelling-a-greener-future-e10-petrol-set-for-september-2021-launch

 

E10 fuel – an eco-friendly blend of petrol and ethanol that could cut transport CO2 emissions by 750,000 tonnes a year – to be available by September 2021.

Tesco has been supplying it for weeks already... and, also contrary to your claim, pre 2011 will not necessarily be affected. I have 2 petrol cars that are pre-2011 and neither are affected.

This is easily checked by following the compatibility checkers that are, seemingly, all over the place.