With World EV day coming up on this Saturday like to wish all other enlightened EV drivers a happy cheap, quite and fun accelerating day for 9th of the 9th 2023.

 

A Youtube from ZAP map on the growth of public chargers in the last dozen years to feed our EVs on those trips.....

 

 

 

 

  

I personally don't like the image of growing dots, feels itchy and like insects.......

 

 

On taxation. if taxing electricity, it'll get complex real fast:

- Tax home charge points, people can use 3-pin domestic plug

- Tax self micro generation (most common solar PV), stuns solar install and incentivise garden shed DIY solar installs

- What about lol's setup with portable battery and portable solar? What about the car's integrated solar panels?

- Don't tax solar, current smart meter legislation doesn't require this info to be captured.

- How does V2H/V2G fit in without further complication? This is the direction we must take to hit 100% renewable, the EV parked are perfect storage devices.

 

I think the only sensible way is to have VED based on vehicle weight. And/or per-mile duty for all vehicles.

1 hour ago, wyx087 said:

I personally don't like the image of growing dots, feels itchy and like insects.......

 

 

On taxation. if taxing electricity, it'll get complex real fast:

- Tax home charge points, people can use 3-pin domestic plug

- Tax self micro generation (most common solar PV), stuns solar install and incentivise garden shed DIY solar installs

- What about lol's setup with portable battery and portable solar? What about the car's integrated solar panels?

- Don't tax solar, current smart meter legislation doesn't require this info to be captured.

- How does V2H/V2G fit in without further complication? This is the direction we must take to hit 100% renewable, the EV parked are perfect storage devices.

 

I think the only sensible way is to have VED based on vehicle weight. And/or per-mile duty for all vehicles.

My prediction is that the VAT on electric will go rise across the board so everyone be paying more regardless of if you have an EV or not, VED will be applied, and it will be a hefty one as well. Road charging will take over from clean air zones and the charges will be based on 1/ the time of day, 2/ types of roads driven, 3/ number of people in your car and finally, 4/ distance travelled. Finally cyclists and e-scooters will have to be registered and carry number plates and they too will be charged to use roads in the same fashion, all collected by digital currency on the day of usage.

Edited 7 September, 20232 yr by Graham Butcher

5 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

My prediction is that the VAT on electric will go rise across the board so everyone be paying more regardless of if you have an EV or not, VED will be applied, and it will be a hefty one as well. Road charging will take over from clean air zones and the charges will be based on 1/ the time of day, 2/ types of roads driven, 3/ number of people in your car and finally, 4/ distance travelled. Finally cyclists and e-scooters will have to be registered and carry number plates and they too will be charged to use roads in the same fashion, all collected by digital currency on the day of usage.

 

Problem could be that even less people go in to cities from the suburbs and inner city business continue to die.

If motorway cost more to drive on, and one trends to drive further if one uses the motorway that a more direct A road then NIMBYs will complain about extra traffic through their quiet towns.  Fraught with problems.

 

2 hours ago, lol-lol said:

 

WVO, waste vegetable oil ahh.

Had some fun as a customs officer sample farmers land rover tanks for Red Diesel and if found they expected a fine.  Were not so chuffed when told we were seizing the vehicle.   Same thing for vehicles with cans of fuel/diesel bought cheap in Ireland/EU, seizes the fuel and, wait for it, the vehicle as well.

 

There are customs entries for electricity and therefore a commodity code, looks like Excise duties to, did not know that.  Perhaps this is the way to tax electricity as if there is an excise duty on imports there should be an excise duty on electricity production even from homes ?    Less than a penny per kWh which could take an EV 4 miles compared to Excise duty at 52p a litre which might take you 10 miles, plus VAT at 20%.  VAT at 5% for domestic or zero if one has generated it oneself, for now at least.   

£7.75 / 1,000 kilowatt hours (kWh)

https://www.trade-tariff.service.gov.uk/commodities/2716000000

 

My solar arrays are not on my roof but on frames in my garden.  A survey of roofs would not identify I had solar panels generating electricity.  Government would have to do drone overflies to see I had solar panels.  How they would measure such a thing is beyond me, have to think on that one.

Perhaps people will get net to camouflage solar installs with nets like people do with cannabis plantations ?

 

They will find a way to see your solar panels, even if they are on your lawn, in your back garden, for a start there is Google Earth for a start off. As the DVLA, say, there is no hiding place, they will find you. As a customs officer you should be aware of this.

Edited 7 September, 20232 yr by Graham Butcher

20 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

 

Problem could be that even less people go in to cities from the suburbs and inner city business continue to die. If motorway cost more to drive on, and one trends to drive further if one uses the motorway that a more direct A road then NIMBYs will complain about extra traffic through their quiet towns.  Fraught with problems.

 

There has been reports that some cameras have been installed on some rural roads already and nobody knows why, there are no signs. Could it be these are just going to be quietly installed over the coming months etc. until the country is covered, and then they will turn them on.

Edited 7 September, 20232 yr by Graham Butcher

4 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

There has been reports that some cameras have been installed on some rural roads already and nobody knows why, there are no signs. Could it be these are just going to be quietly installed over the coming months etc. until the country is covered, and then they will them  turn on.

Are they ANPR cameras?

https://www.police.uk/advice/advice-and-information/rs/road-safety/automatic-number-plate-recognition-anpr/

I think ANPR cameras can be used for tax purposes as you laid out.

 

But whatever the tax scheme, one thing is important, long term EV taxation should never be more expensive to run than ICE. I can understand if EV are taxed more heavily initially to account for initial carbon emissions. But during use, EV should always be cheaper than ICE to run. The message should always be "keep this EV on the road for as long as possible".

1 minute ago, wyx087 said:

Are they ANPR cameras?

https://www.police.uk/advice/advice-and-information/rs/road-safety/automatic-number-plate-recognition-anpr/

I think ANPR cameras can be used for tax purposes as you laid out.

 

But whatever the tax scheme, one thing is important, long term EV taxation should never be more expensive to run than ICE. I can understand if EV are taxed more heavily initially to account for initial carbon emissions. But during use, EV should always be cheaper than ICE to run. The message should always be "keep this EV on the road for as long as possible".

Since when has any tax being applied fairly. I kind of feel that tax will ultimately be very heavy there will be some who cannot or will not have an EV, even if ICE cars are banned from being used, so they will need to make up the lost revenue from these people.

4 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

They will find a way to see your solar panels, even if they are on your lawn, in your back garden, for a start there is Google Earth for a start off. As the DVLA, say, there is no hiding place, they will find you. As a customs officer you should be aware of this.

 

One also learns that taxes have to be effectively collectable which is why hydrocarbon duties are is such a doddle ie collecting it as it leaves the refinery.  Only difficulty with that is in some case is much fuel that is used in the UK is legally imported such as trucks bringing in thousands of litres in their tanks, driving on British roads hundreds of miles and returning to the continent never having bought fuel in the country where much driving has been done.  Belfast, Northern Ireland taxi drivers nipping across the border to buy cheaper Irish Republic diesel and then use it for passenger fares operating in Northern Ireland, rarely buying UK-NI diesel and the tax going to London government but buying fuel where the tax goes to Dublin.  Truck drivers regularly go back and worth across the channel making as much in bootlegging tobacco, cigarettes, hand rolling etc, as they do with their wages.  70% of hand rolling used in the UK was boot legged, some even legally brought in, as HMRC would collect the bin at football matches to see how many packets of cigs and hand rolling were EU sourced many millions going to the EU tax coffers rather than UK.  Taxes have to be economic to collect.  My 500w of solar would be economic to collect ? Do not use it half the year, only worth putting out in to the centre of the garden on a sunny day.  BIt different with ANPR cameras and a car using the road with clear number plates. I welcome the registration of scooters but my would still be illegal as it is 3 times the allowed power output.  They would have to dyno it as it is not obvious. 

 

Got to be both effectively collectable and aligned with government objectives and stopping or slowing people making electricity which means less dirty power station having to come on will not be seen as a good environmental move I would think.  

 

4 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

Since when has any tax being applied fairly. I kind of feel that tax will ultimately be very heavy there will be some who cannot or will not have an EV, even if ICE cars are banned from being used, so they will need to make up the lost revenue from these people.

 

Governments have to collect taxes to run infrastructure and have a framework that is voted through parliament by our representatives.  Tax policy changes like charging diesels extra road tax once discovered they were far more polluting than initially thought ie good on CO2 but bad on NOX, PMs etc.

 

Always tough when policy pivots.  Agree, and a Mr Jazzer HUNT says the UK is in a bad place with huge interest payments of £100B a year on its £2.6T debt (and that does not include the estimated £2T of future public servant pensions which have no fund to be paid from and are paid from the UK's current account).

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/2023/09/07/uk-said-to-be-low-on-options-for-escaping-its-29tn-debt-trap/   

 

https://www.pensions-expert.com/DB-Derisking/Public-sector-pension-bill-exceeds-UK-GDP-for-the-first-time?ct=true

 

Taxes need to be collected by the UK people are already paying more tax as a percentage of income, something like 47% when income tax and indirect taxes are factored together.

As I have said I have no problem pay road tax on my EV but still have not heard an effective way of collecting tax on the electrical power I put in it.

 

@Graham ButcherWhere are the DVLA saying there will be no hiding place, and hiding place from what?   (Driver and licencing agency.)

 

Is it not the DfT or HMRC or the  UK Treasury that that make such statements.   But what is it in reference to. 

 

PS

Taxation on Vapes & especially disposable vapes is going to have to increase.

In Scotland the Disposable ones might possibly be banned from sale.

 

There is Lithium and copper wires just getting dumped willy nilly and ending up with fires at recycling centres because they are just in general waste and not into the system to be handled by hand at these centres because they were not disposed into the proper bins.

 

The same issue exists with e-Scooters and many other products that are not being processed / recycled correctly at end of life. Having been dumped or disposed of.

 

So many things become issues in no time and the waste disposal / recycling industry needs to act as do local authorities and governments.

http://bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-66432021

 

..............

This is how so many Business Users in Rep Mobiles be them ICE or EV use them.

Family sized cars with no Family or Passengers in for work use, NSL in UK of 60 MPH and Max Speed limit of 70 mph.

Some go far for work and some go hardly anyplace much of the time.

 

 

 

 

Edited 8 September, 20232 yr by toot

10 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

VED will be applied, and it will be a hefty one as well. 

Perhaps VED should be based on vehicle weight, then EVs will tend to pay more due to the weight of the batteries.

All vehicles once over 3 years old have the mileage taken at a MOT so the cars registered keepers can be billed annually from then on at MOT time for Mileage covered between MOT,s, or when change of Registered Keeper happens and that mileage is given as it should be even now, but is not.

33 minutes ago, PetrolDave said:

Perhaps VED should be based on vehicle weight, then EVs will tend to pay more due to the weight of the batteries.

 

Before I took up my Executive Officer position HMC&E I did a stint as an AO with DoT and I recall we used The Forth Law as that was the damage ratio....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_power_law

 

So a 10% higher weight  is nearly 50% more damage, that should capture those heavy EVs, and Chelsea tractors etc.

 

26 minutes ago, toot said:

All vehicles once over 3 years old have the mileage taken at a MOT so the cars registered keepers can be billed annually from then on at MOT time for Mileage covered between MOT,s, or when change of Registered Keeper happens and that mileage is given as it should be even now, but is not.

 

Not mandatory but perhaps should be.  Fear is such that I will drive through the Cotswold villages rather than the M40 as it is shorter but it is many miles less distance.

 

Is this what the NIMBY Tories in the leafy well to do village want to see ?  

 

Plan ones route planner to do the shortest route rather than the fastests or eco route and then try and drive like the crow flies.  One can end up doing 10 or 20% less miles.

 

33 minutes ago, PetrolDave said:

Perhaps VED should be based on vehicle weight, then EVs will tend to pay more due to the weight of the batteries.

Weight is a contributing factor to efficiency. So I favour this method, it's simple and effective.

 

But well designed EV's are not really heavier.

Tesla Model Y LR: 1986 kg, 378 bhp, 854 l boot. Tesla Model Y SUV Long Range AWD 5dr Auto specs & dimensions | Parkers

Volvo XC60 polestar engineered PHEV: 2145 kg, comparable 399 bhp, 598 l boot. Volvo XC60 SUV Polestar Engineered T8 Twin Engine AWD auto 5d specs & dimensions | Parkers

Audi SQ5 sportback diesel: 2010 kg, 336 bhp, 500 l boot. Audi Q5 Sportback SQ5 TDI Quattro 5dr Tiptronic specs & dimensions | Parkers

VW Touareg R-line tech petrol: 1945 kg 335 bhp, comparable 810 l boot Volkswagen Touareg SUV R-Line Tech 3.0 V6 TSI 340PS 4Motion Tiptronic auto 5d specs & dimensions | Parkers

 

Only poorly adopted platform from lazy manufacturer are heavier. For example this small EV based on their GLA platform:

Mercedes EQA: 2040kg, 187 bhp, 340 litres boot  https://www.parkers.co.uk/mercedes-benz/eqa/suv-2021/eqa-250-140kw-sport-665kwh-5dr-auto/specs/

Manufacturers have a Fleet Average co2 figure to meet and are using partners with EV,s to achieve this figure.

Legalised cheating.

 

The EV Manufacturers & the ICE manufacturers would be stuffed if the EV,s registered were checked at 3 years to see their average kWh efficiency.

There are too many inefficient EV,s about and manufacturers more concerned on selling them on 0-60 (62 mph)  100 kph etc. 

 

Big fat big battery cars that people are buying for there sportiness even though they are never taking them overseas.

 

As it is the Manufacturers are on a bit of a fight back.  German ones going to side with British.

 

http://autocar.co.uk/car-news/electric-cars/industry-calls-ev-grants-build-demand-zev-mandate

 

The UK Government backing JLR and a Battery factory is a pith take when you look at the weight of their EV,s and Hybrids the batteries are for going in. 

 

Edited 8 September, 20232 yr by toot

3 hours ago, toot said:

@Graham ButcherWhere are the DVLA saying there will be no hiding place, and hiding place from what?   (Driver and licencing agency.)

 

Is it not the DfT or HMRC or the  UK Treasury that that make such statements.   But what is it in reference to. 

 

PS

Taxation on Vapes & especially disposable vapes is going to have to increase.

In Scotland the Disposable ones might possibly be banned from sale.

 

There is Lithium and copper wires just getting dumped willy nilly and ending up with fires at recycling centres because they are just in general waste and not into the system to be handled by hand at these centres because they were not disposed into the proper bins.

 

The same issue exists with e-Scooters and many other products that are not being processed / recycled correctly at end of life. Having been dumped or disposed of.

 

So many things become issues in no time and the waste disposal / recycling industry needs to act as do local authorities and governments.

http://bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-66432021

 

..............

This is how so many Business Users in Rep Mobiles be them ICE or EV use them.

Family sized cars with no Family or Passengers in for work use, NSL in UK of 60 MPH and Max Speed limit of 70 mph.

Some go far for work and some go hardly anyplace much of the time.

 

 

 

 

It might not be DVLA but it certainly is a UK government body who regularly run TV ads about keeping your car taxed, or declaring it as SORN and that particular reference is used in the advert, maybe you dont have it Scotland? 

52 minutes ago, toot said:

All vehicles once over 3 years old have the mileage taken at a MOT so the cars registered keepers can be billed annually from then on at MOT time for Mileage covered between MOT,s, or when change of Registered Keeper happens and that mileage is given as it should be even now, but is not.

Thriving business would be  devolped to manipulate mileage backwards again if that were introduced. That is what the cameras will used for. Drive at peak times, pay more, drive through quiet villages instead of major trunk roads, pay more. 

1 hour ago, toot said:

All vehicles once over 3 years old have the mileage taken at a MOT

That relies on the garage correctly recording the mileage - I say this because on checking the MOTs of my deceased uncle's Toyota the garage (he always used the same one) recorded the mileage on 3 consecutive years as (approx values) .... 27,000; 101,000; 27,500

 

Given that he never drove outside of his own town then doing 74,000 miles in one year (207 miles every day) was clearly implausible so they should have noticed their error and corrected it.

32 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

But well designed EV's are not really heavier.

But how many well designed EV's are there?

 

Given many families desire for SUV style EV's there's currently little incentive on the manufacturers to save weight.

 

Surely the concerns about the ability of multi-storey car parks to cope with a mostly EV population are not just scare mongering?

30 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

It might not be DVLA but it certainly is a UK government body who regularly run TV ads about keeping your car taxed, or declaring it as SORN and that particular reference is used in the advert, maybe you dont have it Scotland? 

Here:

https://www.campaignlive.co.uk/article/dvla-goes-gear-campaign-disrupt-vehicle-tax-evasion/1747947

 

7 minutes ago, PetrolDave said:

But how many well designed EV's are there?

 

Given many families desire for SUV style EV's there's currently little incentive on the manufacturers to save weight.

 

Surely the concerns about the ability of multi-storey car parks to cope with a mostly EV population are not just scare mongering?

Good question, dedicated EV platform are not clearly known except within EV circle.

 

Weight isn't transparent when buying a vehicle. It is not a parameter on people's mind. Hopefully tax based on weight will put it front and centre.

 

The multi-storey car park weight worry story singling out EV is a strange one. Remembering that there are just as heavy ICE cars.

6 out of 10 heaviest cars on sale in UK are not EV: https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/tips-advice/360607/heaviest-cars-sale

@Graham Butcherobviously we have adverts about VED, have ANPR, have vehicles getting clamped.  Also have those driving about without and VED, mot,s or insurance.   I thought you were on about some amazing new regime and system of policing the UK and the use of electricity by the wording you used.   Funnily the Government Agencies say many things, and fail to deliver.  

Edited 8 September, 20232 yr by toot

3 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

Here:

https://www.campaignlive.co.uk/article/dvla-goes-gear-campaign-disrupt-vehicle-tax-evasion/1747947

So I was right, it was indeed the DVLA running those ads. I don't watch much TV, its mostly just rubbish anyway.

2 minutes ago, toot said:

Funnily the Government Agencies say many things, and fail to deliver.  

So true but it would be foolish to rely on that though, I certainly wouldn't bet on them on not delivering.