1 hour ago, Luckypants said:

A lot do perform as well. Last winter there was a big traffic jam in a blizzard in the USA and folks were stuck for days. Some ICE cars needed refilling with fuel as they were running out after running their engines for many hours and the EV doom-sayers were going on how you couldn't top up a battery on the road in this manner. I think that furore is what prompted this video.

Coincidentally, someone on the ID.3 Facebook group posted today about exactly this experience he faced yesterday, stuck in a traffic jam in Germany for 14 hours in -5 temps. He was worried as his journey plan had been to stop at the next planned charger with 20% battery (58kWh usable full battery on his car). The worry was would he have enough charge left to reach the charger as he 'only' had 20% margin. He turned the heat down to 16C and used the heated seats to keep body warm. There was himself and partner in the car, kids on back seat with a blanket. When the traffic cleared he was able to make it to the next available charger (not his planned stop) with 10% battery spare. Seems a non-issue to me.

My ID.4 uses about 2.1kW to heat the car at -1 to -3 and run various systems. I could maybe get that to 1.9kW if I turned the car off and only used stationary heating and heated seats. With a maximum of 75kWh (full battery) I'd be fine for around 38 hours. Of course in the real world, I'd be arriving at the problem with less than that but you can see where I'm coming from. My car does not have a heat pump, cars so equipped will use less power to maintain temperature.

Of course there have been incidents here where people have become trapped on motorways etc due to road closures etc, but this is the real danger, and it might never happen but nonetheless could happen, and yes I know there will be people saying you should always be prepared and plan ahead etc. But it is perfectly feasible for many reasons to low on fuel in both EV and ICE cars, and you suddenly find yourself thrust into a situation as a result of an emergency trip having to be made before you could top up the levels. I had this situation last year with my 92yr old MIL collapsing on her kitchen floor on the other side of the city and living alone, we were the only family she could contact, everyone else was in Australia visiting other family members, or working in London. I had planned on filling the car at my local Tesco the following day when I also did the weekly shopping trip.

 

Now she could have been living in the next town etc and in the process of dashing to her aid, we could have been stranded in a blizzard etc and ran out of fuel as well. Now with an ICE car it is possible and has been done before that emergency workers could top up the tanks of ICE cars with enough fuel to keep the heater going, how would they be able to that with an EV in a similar situation?

Edited 18 January, 20242 yr by Graham Butcher

3 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

Of course there have been incidents here where people have become trapped on motorways etc due to road closures etc, but this is the real danger, and it might never happen but nonetheless could happen, and yes I know there will be people saying you should always be prepared and plan ahead etc. But it is perfectly feasible for many reasons to low on fuel in both EV and ICE cars, and you suddenly find yourself thrust into a situation as a result of an emergency trip having to be made before you could top up the levels. I had this situation last year with my 92yr old MIL collapsing on her kitchen floor on the other side of the city and living alone, we were the only family she could contact, everyone else was in Australia visiting other family members, or working in London. I had planned on filling the car at my local Tesco the following day when I also did the weekly shopping trip.

Now she could have been living in the next town etc and in the process of dashing to her aid, we could have been stranded in a blizzard etc and ran out of fuel as well. Now with an ICE car it is possible and has been done before that emergency workers could top up the tanks of ICE cars with enough fuel to keep the heater going, how would they be able to that with an EV in a similar situation?

 

 

Half a day or over a day an EV get keep its occupants warm, not dissimilar to ICE cars I would have thought.  My EV has 4 USB points so people can all keep on their devices.  My EV has a heat pump so is really efficient using the energy in the battery, 1 kWh draw will keep those inside warm whilst generating around 3 or 4 kWs of heat hence the Zoe ZE50 occupants could survive on the battery even if the battery was only half charges.  Dont know of any ICE cars with hit pumps.  They rely on the inherent inefficiency of their fossil fuel to power cycle, turbo petrol about 30% efficient, car diesel engine about 40%. 

EV are just so damn thermally efficient ie around 90%, they just do not produce vast amounts of waste heat, only vast amounts of pollution.

 

One reason I did not go straight for the Megane E from the Zoe, only the top of the range had heat pump, now the middle range one does and I presume the cheapo one will soon.   All recent TESLA have heat pumps I gather.   The big issues in Chicago seems partially down to chargers, and cars, charging more slowly in the minus 40 temperature (Celcius and Farenheit cross over at this temp ie minus 40 is the same temp on both scale at this point).  SOme EV drivers, we are not all saints and nice people though I like to think we are enlightened, and some were probably handing on for that last 10 or 20 % charge at a very slow rate.  I think chargers should charge at least at half or quarter their maximum rate, if all working chargers are running so EV drivers do not hand on to a rapid DC charger whilst only drawing 10 or 15 kWs.  I would move off the charger, hopefully there would be an AC charger nearby where I could get 15 or 20 or 22 kWs and free up a DC charger.  There are still more AC chargers than there are DC, some only a poxy 7 kWh, but some 11, 16s, and 22s, more than some people think, just tapped in to that lovely 3 phase AC network so I can suck it up in the Renault's Cameleon charger.

 

 

Edited 18 January, 20242 yr by lol-lol

@lol-lolEh, what do you mean, your EV doesn't produce wast heat but does produce vast amounts pollution, I thought was their USP no? 😉

The point I was making though was what if, you arrived home with only a few miles range left because you planned to plug it in overnight, but an emergency cropped up before it had time to be charged, then you wouldn't have that half charged battery available to you! An ICE could swing into a filling station and get a full tank in less than 5 minutes, or if it came down to it, stuck in traffic jam etc, the emergency services could at least get a jerry can of juice to you to keep warm with. 

 

I'm not aware of any ICE having a heatpump either, counter productive really, when there is "free" heat from the engine. My car has a feature where I could switch the engine off and keep the heater blowing warm air  from the hot water for a while and then run the engine back up to temp again and again to extract the engines residual heat. Never seen that before on any car. 

Edited 18 January, 20242 yr by Graham Butcher

24 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

@lol-lolEh, what do you mean, your EV doesn't produce wast heat but does produce vast amounts pollution, I thought was their USP no? 😉

The point I was making though was what if, you arrived home with only a few miles range left because you planned to plug it in overnight, but an emergency cropped up before it had time to be charged, then you wouldn't have that half charged battery available to you! An ICE could swing into a filling station and get a full tank in less than 5 minutes, or if it came down to it, stuck in traffic jam etc, the emergency services could at least get a jerry can of juice to you to keep warm with. 

 

I'm not aware of any ICE having a heatpump either, counter productive really, when there is "free" heat from the engine. My car has a feature where I could switch the engine off and keep the heater blowing warm air  from the hot water for a while and then run the engine back up to temp again and again to extract the engines residual heat. Never seen that before on any car. 

 

Very little waste heat in an EV as engine is so efficient. What little there is can be channel to warm the traction battery or cabin.

Unique selling point is running cost of about 5p a mile and that is energy for motion, servicing and tyres.

 

Running internal heating and then running the engine for short periods is common on hybrids.

Engines in pure ice cars ie non hybrids are inefficient as load is so low that engine is running at a very ineffient rpm. Turbo not really running at 800 engine rpm, low volumetric efficiency. 

Hybrids bring the ice on for short periods, load the engine with it powering the generator to charge the hybrids lithium battery and shut off when jacket temp up to say 70c and hybrid battery charged to about three quarters. Passenger comfort systems will then run for 10 minutes or so and hybrid battery down to a quarter and then ice engine switches on again to power genny for hybrid system and bring jacket water temp back up to 70ish.

Works well and keep fuel consumption over 50 mpg even in this sub zero temp and the torque from engine and motor makes it feel like a torquey 2 litre engine.

Tell my lad to run it in eco mode in the bad weather as just so much torque. Same with the EVs massive toque off the line, bad enough in summer but tyre ripping in winter. 0 to 30 in a nidge over 3 seconds is fun in both the ev and the hybrid, puts the turbo petrol to shame even though all about the 140 - 145 hp Mark.

 

Filling station which only hydrocarbon fuel and not lecky are starting to die out. New EV charging places are popping up plus garden centres, fast food outlets and super markets are jumping on the EV charging band wagon. Charge their car, sell them coffee, foods etc.

Worcester now has far more charging points than it does fossil fuel filling pumps. Pump manufacturers like Tokheim in Dundee are making more and more ev charging units and their is bound to be a reduction in wiesel and petrol pumps correspondingly.

The future is nigh and its lecky.

21 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

 

Very little waste heat in an EV as engine is so efficient. What little there is can be channel to warm the traction battery or cabin.

Unique selling point is running cost of about 5p a mile and that is energy for motion, servicing and tyres.

 

Running internal heating and then running the engine for short periods is common on hybrids.

Engines in pure ice cars ie non hybrids are inefficient as load is so low that engine is running at a very ineffient rpm. Turbo not really running at 800 engine rpm, low volumetric efficiency. 

Hybrids bring the ice on for periods, load the engine with it powering the generator to charge the hybrids lithium battery and shut off when jacket temp up to say 70c and hybrid battery charged to about three quarters. Passenger comfort systems will then run for 10 minutes or so and hybrid battery down to a quarter and then ice engine switches on again to power genny for hybrid system and bring jacket water temp back up to 70ish.

Works well and keep fuel consumption over 50 mpg even in this sub zero temp and the torque from engine and motor makes it feel like a torquey 2 litre engine.

Tell my lad to run it in eco mode in the bad weather as just so much torque. Same with the EVs massive toque off the line, bad enough in summer but tyre ripping in winter. 0 to 30 in a nidge over 3 seconds is fun in both the ev and the hybrid, puts the turbo petrol to shame even though all about the 140 - 145 hp Mark.

 

Filling station which only hydrocarbon fuel and not lecky are starting to die out. New EV charging places are popping up plus garden centres, fast food outlets and super markets are jumping on the EV charging band wagon. Charge their car, sell them coffee, foods etc.

Worcester now has far more charging points than it does fossil fuel filling pumps. Pump manufacturers like Tokheim in Dundee are making more and more ev charging units and their is bound to be a reduction in wiesel and petrol pumps correspondingly.

The future is nigh and its lecky.

None of the above is currently in dispute, but that might well not be the case in a couple of years time, possibly, only time will tell on that issue.

 

1 hour ago, lol-lol said:

They rely on the inherent inefficiency of their fossil fuel to power cycle, turbo petrol about 30% efficient, car diesel engine about 40%. 

EV are just so damn thermally efficient ie around 90%, they just do not produce vast amounts of waste heat, only vast amounts of pollution.

 This is what I was talking about, you're saying that "EV are so efficient @90% that they don't produce vast amounts of waste heat, only vast amounts of pollution." Your words, not mine 😉🤣

As I drove home today, getting to the car at 6:30pm after a few hours of below freezing, other co-workers had to wait for their car to warm up and/or scrape ice. I turned on pre-conditioning as I packed up, got to a warm car without any frost and drove off straight away. Similar story this morning.

 

58 miles return, 8+ hours apart, was just over 3 mi/kWh at -5c in the morning and -2c return. Compared to 3.7 mi/kWh average economy over 1 year.

 

EV's do have small amount of waste heat. After stopping at home, I checked S3XY button app and it showed battery was at 10c, up from 6c when I set off. Coolant going in was at 12c, presumably heat scavenged from motor.

If EV motor are 90% efficient and used 20 kW to maintain 70mph, that means 2 kW of heat is available for heating the cabin or battery. Just need a flexible smart system to scavenge that heat and heat pump to raise the temperature to make it useful. Minimise waste, minimise energy used for heating.

 

 

1 hour ago, Graham Butcher said:

None of the above is currently in dispute, but that might well not be the case in a couple of years time, possibly, only time will tell on that issue.

 

 This is what I was talking about, you're saying that "EV are so efficient @90% that they don't produce vast amounts of waste heat, only vast amounts of pollution." Your words, not mine 😉🤣

 

Most EVs little pollution, some say there is a bit of tyres deg which might have some pollution.  

 

Batteries now have little or no rare earth metals, phones and tablets are reportedly worse for this.

 

I am still learning how to optimise on charging, when best to charge to bring up the battery temp when cold to increase battery ability to charge and give best output and miles per kWh. Zoe only has active cooling and UK version does not have battery heating only the nordic version do I gather.

 

Be interesting to see if upgrade batteries become available as the cost fall so much and energy density improves maybe I could get a 60 or 70 kWh battery at a low cost especially if my 52 kWh does degrade by 5 or 10%.

 

TESLA just dropped prices by 4 to 7 % on the continent ie retail less than £40k for a model Y standard, hopefully head that way in the UK shortly and maybe the Y will be no 1 in 2024 as well as 2023.

 

When an ICE car is idling it doesn’t generate anywhere near enough heat to keep the occupants warm on waste heat.

 

So you need either an electrical heater, which will drain the battery faster than idle will fill it, a fuel based heater or something else.

 

The occupants are more likely to freeze in minus 10 than stay warm.

 

 

@cheezemonkhaiHmm, well mine kept me nice and warm idling today and the outside temp was minus 5C. I think I'd agree with you if the engine had been started from cold and left to idle, but after having been driven so it was at normal operating temp, then the energy required to maintain the temperature is far lower than what is required to bring it from minus 5 upto 90C.

@lol-lolSo the way that you're avoiding the question suggests that you don't want to answer it, why I don't know when I suspect that it was just a typo or was written on a mobile phone and the predictive text worm popped its head up and inserted what it thought you actually meant to say  

2 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

@lol-lolSo the way that you're avoiding the question suggests that you don't want to answer it, why I don't know when I suspect that it was just a typo or was written on a mobile phone and the predictive text worm popped its head up and inserted what it thought you actually meant to say  

 

Just to be clear then I believe from what I have read that EVs have very low levels of pollution, CO2, PM2.5 and PM10 particles, leak and problems of disposal of dangerous level of rare earth metals.  Very pro in getting rid of diesel engine land vehicles as quickly as they can be replaced by electric, petrol-hybrid, even LNG, and that is despite, or partial because, having done a 4 year apprenticeship as a marine diesel engineering officer.

 

I hope that has come across loud and clear perhaps despite the occasional typo or omission of a word flipping what I meant to see.  Stop BS, stop burning stuff. 

   

4 hours ago, lol-lol said:

 

Just to be clear then I believe from what I have read that EVs have very low levels of pollution, CO2, PM2.5 and PM10 particles, leak and problems of disposal of dangerous level of rare earth metals.  Very pro in getting rid of diesel engine land vehicles as quickly as they can be replaced by electric, petrol-hybrid, even LNG, and that is despite, or partial because, having done a 4 year apprenticeship as a marine diesel engineering officer.

 

I hope that has come across loud and clear perhaps despite the occasional typo or omission of a word flipping what I meant to see.  Stop BS, stop burning stuff. 

   

Arh ha, good grief, why is it so hard for you to admit that it was a simple typo? I even said it for you with winking emjo and a smiley. All you needed to say was "correct it was a typo" 👍

37 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

@cheezemonkhaiHmm, well mine kept me nice and warm idling today and the outside temp was minus 5C. I think I'd agree with you if the engine had been started from cold and left to idle, but after having been driven so it was at normal operating temp, then the energy required to maintain the temperature is far lower than what is required to bring it from minus 5 upto 90C.

And that’s fine for a bit, but sat for hours in the negative temperatures on the blocked road at Negative temperatures scenario you posted for an EV it wouldn’t.

 

As an example also, our EV will keep the car at 23degrees at -4 and was using 1.4-1.8kW to do so. The 1.8 from stone cold until defrosted. 
 

Call it 1.5 to make the maths easy and probably less for say 18-20 degrees.

 

24 hours stuck on a road, permanently heating to a warm temperature without any attempt to eco mode would use 36kWh.  Oh and electric cars can turn off and wrap up too.

 

i just don’t think this is the problem you seem to think this is.

Interesting the car relying on heat pump (blue Tesla MY) warms up slower than resistive heater (red Nissan Leaf). Probably used less energy though, hard to measure. 
 

Wife school run, I came home late last night due to work, so had to move my car this morning. Pressed pre-condition button at same time. 
 

Leaf had a minute delay in starting due to slower (hopeless terrible) Nissan servers. Leaf pre-heating will only use PTC resistive heater. Tesla with heat pumps will only use heat pump. It was evident when I came out and hearing the compressor under the bonnet for blue car but not the red one.  -5c outside today. 

Leaf’s bonnet rarely iced up this year. Probably due to V2H keeping the car electronics awake. 

On my drive this morning to tend to my MIL I noticed the same thing on all the Telsas I saw. The cabins were perfectly clear while the bonnets were all iced up. My own car meanwhile after driving 19 miles had a clear bonnet, even though it has fully lagged bonnet, and yet the roof was still fully iced up. 

The MINI electric turned on and with ambient temps from above freezing to minus 8 which is the lowest I have been in and the heater turned to set at 18•oC is showing as using 0.6 kWh. And it gets to 18 degrees c inside within about 10 minutes and stays showing using 0.6 kWh.  And if I turn it to wanting 21degrees C still shows using the same energy.    It is actually more efficient using the energy and heating when the car is unplugged or when pre heating is turned on.   If sitting in the car charging the heater is limited on heating the car.  In the Corsa Electric I could sit charging and put the heater to 28 degrees, fan on full and swelter in the car. 

PS. I did 80 miles in the BMW the other day starting with the snow swept off the bonnet and the bonnet covered in ice.  The ice did not thaw until I was sitting in the sun and it was still around freezing outside.   150 miles later when it was above freezing I picked chunks of ice out of the front scuttle and let the dog lick it. 

That nicely shows how well insulated your mini is and as it also a relatively small cabin to say my car, it will need less energy to keep warm. 👍

Indeed @Graham Butcher. Heating a large cabin does have an effect in an EV. As mentioned earlier my ID.4 uses around 2kW to maintain cabin temp at just below freezing. The electronically identical ID.3 uses only 1.5kW due to a much smaller cabin.

1 hour ago, wyx087 said:

Interesting the car relying on heat pump (blue Tesla MY) warms up slower than resistive heater (red Nissan Leaf). Probably used less energy though, hard to measure. 
 

Wife school run, I came home late last night due to work, so had to move my car this morning. Pressed pre-condition button at same time. 
 

Leaf had a minute delay in starting due to slower (hopeless terrible) Nissan servers. Leaf pre-heating will only use PTC resistive heater. Tesla with heat pumps will only use heat pump. It was evident when I came out and hearing the compressor under the bonnet for blue car but not the red one.  -5c outside today. 

Leaf’s bonnet rarely iced up this year. Probably due to V2H keeping the car electronics awake. 

Now that I'm home and I'm looking at your post on the proper computer and not on the phone, I notice that the roof of your Telsa does not seem to be as well insulated as it could be as the ise has started to thaw out and, whereas you're wife's car roof is still icy. I think you are lucky to have a drive long enough to house 2 cars on it, houses like that round this neck of the woods are around the £2m price bracket.

Edited 19 January, 20242 yr by Graham Butcher

2 hours ago, cheezemonkhai said:

And that’s fine for a bit, but sat for hours in the negative temperatures on the blocked road at Negative temperatures scenario you posted for an EV it wouldn’t.

 

As an example also, our EV will keep the car at 23degrees at -4 and was using 1.4-1.8kW to do so. The 1.8 from stone cold until defrosted. 
 

Call it 1.5 to make the maths easy and probably less for say 18-20 degrees.

 

24 hours stuck on a road, permanently heating to a warm temperature without any attempt to eco mode would use 36kWh.  Oh and electric cars can turn off and wrap up too.

 

i just don’t think this is the problem you seem to think this is.

I dont think that your belief that an ICE vehicle will not run the heater at tickover is correct, there is more than enough waste heat from combustion, it would however take a very very long time to reach operating temperature if started from cold and left idling in freezing tempeatures and may not get to open the thermostat but that is because the heat is being drawn by the heater. In the circumstances you describe (stuck on a road) the engine would already be at operating temperature.

 

Aside from knowing that you are misguided through personal experience if you think about all the times people leave their vehicle idling to warm up or defrost the screens then you would realise your belief cannot be correct.

 

This day alone there will be scores of vehicles stolen from peoples drives doing exactly that.

4 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Now that I'm home and I'm looking at your post on the proper computer and not on the phone, I notice that the roof of your Telsa does not seem to be as well insulated as it could be as the ise has started to thaw out and, whereas you're wife's car roof is still icy. I think you are lucky to have a drive long enough to house 2 cars on it, houses like that round this neck of the woods are around the £2m price bracket.

Yes, I did notice it looking at the photo afterwards. Glass is never going to be as good insulation as metal + damping. Wife also doesn't like it in summer on rare days we get sun around here. If there was a configuration choice, I would have chosen a solid roof like a normal car.

 

Trust me, I wish I lived in a £2m house.

I have suggested converting the small front garden into parking space, in front of the window to the very right. A bit tight but can park a car and means don't have to keep swapping. But wife wanted to keep the green space.  As they say, happy wife happy life. 🙄

 

Having a driveway was a must-have requirement for us when we moved ~10 years ago. EV's were in infancy and I knew it would need off-road charging.

Is this where we are now?
"My ICE car warms up quicker than your EV so ner ner na na nerr hur hur."
As a reader more than a contributor in this topic it's all looking rather pathetic IMO.

Edited as @Graham Butcherdidn't understand it.

Edited 19 January, 20242 yr by @Lee

10 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

Yes, I did notice it looking at the photo afterwards. Glass is never going to be as good insulation as metal + damping. Wife also doesn't like it in summer on rare days we get sun around here. If there was a configuration choice, I would have chosen a solid roof like a normal car.

 

Trust me, I wish I lived in a £2m house.

I have suggested converting the small front garden into parking space, in front of the window to the very right. A bit tight but can park a car and means don't have to keep swapping. But wife wanted to keep the green space.  As they say, happy wife happy life. 🙄

 

Having a driveway was a must-have requirement for us when we moved ~10 years ago. EV's were in infancy and I knew it would need off-road charging.

Oh yes, of course, I'd forgotten that they have a glass roof, doesn't cause problems with condensation dripping from it on cold mornings?

 

Don't we all wish we lived in a £2m house, it was just a reflection of the price disparity between your neck of the woods and mine, which is not strictly correct as there are some houses that can accommodate 2 cars around the £850,000 mark.

I'm not interested in side arguments via PM Graham. You can ask me here or not at all.

Edited 19 January, 20242 yr by @Lee