4 minutes ago, xman said:

At least ICE cars have a gearbox and some form of clutch plus usually independent control system from the engine. Possible to disconnect the engine from the drive train.

 

The simplicity of an EV drive train has to rely on high reliability of its control system as the electric motor generally can't be disconnected from the wheels

How would gear-by-wire automatic gearbox work in your example?

 

All these listed are electronic gear selector on ICE cars: https://www.autoknowledge.com/index.php/news-sp-1988811189/vic-updates/501-types-of-electronic-shifters-autoblog

Meaning gear selector is not physically connected to gearbox. No way to disconnect the engine if that selector stops working.

 

 

My point is, if all types of population systems depends on the reliability of its control system, and more typically the dummy in the control seat. Why are EV's being singled out by the media and calls for needing a kill switch?

Once there are more incidents then there might really be a need for more SAFETY as in a CUT OFF device.

By then the Self Drive Vehicles will be on the roads and they will need to have a Radio Control system / Cut out roadside like has already been talked about for years to slow down / stop vehicles. 

Just like Karts at an indoor  Karting Track.      

 

There has been talk for a decade now about people hacking into cars while moving and taking control of them remotely, and that can happen with EV,s.

 

 

 

Then this...

Edited 7 March, 20242 yr by Rooted

With all the modern tech and internet connection in the car you should just be able to shout "Alexa stop the ******* car" 😂

The thing is, an automatic gearbox has its own control system, not the engine ecu. So yes an auto gearbox might feasibly fail in gear with the clutch/torque converter permanently engaged, but the engine being independent you can that turn off, release the throttle etc. 2 independent systems so a higher level of failsafe than an EV.

 

 

Electric failures.  Signals to ECU,s.  Off switch not operable.  Key Less entry. etc.

 

The accelerators are Fly by wire.  No throttle cable.

There are Mild Hybrids, soon almost all ICE vehicles with be Mild Hybrid before 2035. 

A simple physical cutoff switch for an 800V DC running a hundred amps (DC being particularly nasty) - almost impossible. Not something you'd have in a cabin. Would have to be electronic, remotely controlled, maybe by software.....ermm....wait a minute....

 

It would possibly need to use a explosive device based like an airbag to ensure rapid contact seperation.

 

Alternatively could be a clutch to disconnect the electric motor.

 

 

Edited 7 March, 20242 yr by xman

maybe a Control/alt/delete button on the touchscreen to switch it on and off again?

13 minutes ago, Rooted said:

Electric failures.  Signals to ECU,s.  Off switch not operable.  Key Less entry. etc.

 

The accelerators are Fly by wire.  No throttle cable.

So put the gearbox into neutral. Whats the chance of both gearbox ecu and engine ecu failing simultaneously? Less than the the power inverter control system of an electric motor?

2 minutes ago, Stonekeeper said:

maybe a Control/alt/delete button on the touchscreen to switch it on and off again?

Whatever you do, don't let Microsoft design it.

@xman Have you driven with the latest DSG shifters?

Anyway, how many run away EV,s have we in the UK so far compared to oldies flooring the accelerator while parking?

 

That really gets scary when more and more that should not have a licence are driving EV,s

 

Sh-!t happens.

Edited 7 March, 20242 yr by Rooted

15 minutes ago, Rooted said:

@xman Have you driven with the latest DSG shifters?

You don't understand single point (EV) v 2 point failure (ICE)

 

There is no single point failure that would take out a DSG and an engine in an unsafe way. Would require 2 failures at minimum. Not saying it can't happen, just less likely.

 

I have some experience in this area of design.

Edited 7 March, 20242 yr by xman

@xman  OK, if you say so. 

1 hour ago, wyx087 said:

There's chit chat threads elsewhere. Or you can get eachother's whatsapp to chat off topic on there.

 

https://www.speakev.com/threads/whats-more-efficient-than-regenerative-braking-police-assisted-braking.183631/post-3578551

The 12v battery might be the cause for all those electrical issues seen in the 2 runaway-EV stories. The linked post talks about his "mate" had similar problem with ZS EV, where it lit up with errors and had to stump on the brake really hard to stop. Post pointed out similar brake assist problem with Nissan Leaf should 12v battery failed.

 

It's about time EV's get rid of the ancient lead-acid 12v battery.

It's my understanding that the complete traction system on EVs has to have a healthy 12v lead acid battery to operate. Battery fails, car shuts down and if battery fails while parked, then nothing will run. So in that case a failed battery shouldn't cause the problems you mentioned. 

28 minutes ago, xman said:

A simple physical cutoff switch for an 800V DC running a hundred amps (DC being particularly nasty) - almost impossible. Not something you'd have in a cabin. Would have to be electronic, remotely controlled, maybe by software.....ermm....wait a minute....

 

It would possibly need to use a explosive device based like an airbag to ensure rapid contact seperation.

 

Alternatively could be a clutch to disconnect the electric motor.

 

 

 

A simple latching relay with a NC contact cut off pusbutton is series with the relay coil would suffice, very basic technology, its what I did with all my racecars and combined it with a hidden latching N/O pushbutton as a security measure, it did not comply with the then MSA regulations but scrutineers did not know what was going on when they tested it, it was in fact far far safer than the cut off switches sold then and now made in China whose contacts would either weld together or oxidise.

 

The only downside of it for an EV is that it is one more component to potentially cause reliability issues.

28 minutes ago, Stonekeeper said:

maybe a Control/alt/delete button on the touchscreen to switch it on and off again?

No mission critical function should be a touch type control IMO. 

All fiction.  Never happened, can not happen.    Someone here knows about such things. 

 

 

 

Edited 7 March, 20242 yr by Rooted

37 minutes ago, xman said:

A simple physical cutoff switch for an 800V DC running a hundred amps (DC being particularly nasty) - almost impossible. Not something you'd have in a cabin. Would have to be electronic, remotely controlled, maybe by software.....ermm....wait a minute....

 

It would possibly need to use a explosive device based like an airbag to ensure rapid contact seperation.

 

Alternatively could be a clutch to disconnect the electric motor.

 

 

I think you are correct about the explosive part, DC is not something that takes kindly to being interrupted and so it has to be done at high speed. 

3 minutes ago, J.R. said:

 

A simple latching relay with a NC contact cut off pusbutton is series with the relay coil would suffice, very basic technology,

Errm, low voltage dc, low current simple, not so with HV high current DC you also have the problem of a control system in an unknown state with the ability to return current from an inductive load

 

Have you ever seen a sustained HV DC arc?

 

Several times most weeks when welding and plasma cutting but that aint at all the same as a DC EV battery.

 

Disconnection of the high voltage battery would not be a pulsed DC arcing situation and even the tool operated manual disconnect systems on the batteries themselves likely have a capacitor in parallel in case they are passing current through an inductive load.

 

We are talking about something being used in an emergency situation, there are EV's in motorsport now, the RAC Blue Book will set out what the mandatory battery cut off will be, 20 years too late for me to have enough interest to look it up.

Much as I love conspiracy theories, the sad fact is the majority of fatal aircraft accidents are caused by pilot error. Insufficient training, knowledge or just plain bad judgement/decision making. Recent exception being Boeing Max and its faulty design.

 

So unless we see more than one example with the same fault, imo it's more likely the driver is to blame. By that I mean 2 Jaguars, or 2 MGs, not one of each.

 

The Jag in the story allegedly travelled at over 90mph for 35 mins on the M62 without slowing, as someone who's travelled that route frequently, I'd say that was impossible.

 

 

“The speed was going towards about 100mph in the high 90s, going to 100. I thought this was a bit wrong."

 

What an understatement.

Edited 7 March, 20242 yr by xman

A Majority is only one more than a minority.   But i get your point, you have your opinions and set ideas. 

Maybe wrong and maybe right, it must by one or the other. 

 

Anyway.

  Someone will be compiling statistics of reported faults, maybe the DVSA in the UK.. 

Edited 7 March, 20242 yr by Rooted

17 minutes ago, xman said:

Much as I love conspiracy theories, the sad fact is the majority of fatal aircraft accidents are caused by pilot error. Insufficient training, knowledge or just plain bad judgement/decision making. Recent exception being Boeing Max and its faulty design.

 

So unless we see more than one example with the same fault, imo it's more likely the driver is to blame. By that I mean 2 Jaguars, or 2 MGs, not one of each.

 

The Jag in the story allegedly travelled at over 90mph for 35 mins on the M62 without slowing, as someone who's travelled that frequently, I'd say that was impossible.

 

 

It should have been near Ripponden 90mph for 35 minutes from liverpool?

27 minutes ago, xman said:

Much as I love conspiracy theories, the sad fact is the majority of fatal aircraft accidents are caused by pilot error. Insufficient training, knowledge or just plain bad judgement/decision making. Recent exception being Boeing Max and its faulty design.

 

So unless we see more than one example with the same fault, imo it's more likely the driver is to blame. By that I mean 2 Jaguars, or 2 MGs, not one of each.

 

The Jag in the story allegedly travelled at over 90mph for 35 mins on the M62 without slowing, as someone who's travelled that route frequently, I'd say that was impossible.

 

 

“The speed was going towards about 100mph in the high 90s, going to 100. I thought this was a bit wrong."

 

What an understatement.

According to information, this incident with that Jaguar doing around 100mph on the motorway is indeed plausible as it is alleged to have been in this fault mode where the speed could not be regulated at 3am in the morning when there would not have been much in the line of other traffic on the road.

They best get the safety features sorted out before the Electric HGV,s hit the UK roads singularly or in convoy.

 

I imagine that they have already addressed that in Norway. 

 

They will have numbers for how many runaway out of the driver control EV,s there have been. 

Edited 7 March, 20242 yr by Rooted

32 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

According to information, this incident with that Jaguar doing around 100mph on the motorway is indeed plausible as it is alleged to have been in this fault mode where the speed could not be regulated at 3am in the morning when there would not have been much in the line of other traffic on the road.

Except it was 2:30pm in the afternoon

 

"The latest incident happened as he was travelling home from his first day as a crisis support worker with children in Ormskirk, Liverpool, on Wednesday at 2.30pm."