the truth about electric cars

[Paws4Thot]

5 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

Lets see if we can get any sensible response to this article then where the rise in SUV and 4x4s and pickup's is causing more deaths of pedestrians then normal family type cars, shall we.

 

Its only a 3:32s video so is not taking up much of your time

You'd still have to get me to use Briskoda as a portal to YouChube videos that I choose to not watch directly or otherwise as a rule.

[wyx087]

9 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

Lets see if we can get any sensible response to this article then where the rise in SUV and 4x4s and pickup's is causing more deaths of pedestrians then normal family type cars, shall we.

 

Its only a 3:32s video so is not taking up much of your time @wyx087

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/interestingas****/comments/1b7d59m/grille_height_kills_509_people_in_the_us_every/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3 

What response are you looking to get? Were root's response to points in the video you shared earlier not sensible? 

Major points Geroff's video can be summarised in a paragraph or two. It saves everyone time and effort. If you want to get your point across, just spell it out. Honestly, I don't browse forums to find videos, I browse forums to read text, I go to youtube.com to find youtube videos. 

 

The rise in SUV otherwise known as Chelsea tractors are not exactly related to EV's. 

[Winston_Woof]

9 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

Lets see if we can get any sensible response to this article then where the rise in SUV and 4x4s and pickup's is causing more deaths of pedestrians then normal family type cars, shall we.

 

Its only a 3:32s video so is not taking up much of your time @wyx087

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/interestingas****/comments/1b7d59m/grille_height_kills_509_people_in_the_us_every/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3 

which (on the face of it) appears to contradict the figures at the below link.

Whilst there may be a grain of truth in that SUVs/4x4s/Pickups are involved in more pedestrian fatalities isn't that simply a natural result of more of those type of vehicles being on the road. The overall trend is down.

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/reported-road-casualties-great-britain-pedestrian-factsheet-2022/reported-road-casualties-in-great-britain-pedestrian-factsheet-2022

 

Between 2004 and 2022:

• fatalities were down 43% from 671 to 385

• serious injuries (adjusted) decreased by 42%

• pedestrian traffic (distance walked) increased by 16%

 

[Ootohere]

I just read a review on the new MINI Countryman Electric AWD.

 

So it looks like MINI / BMW have mainly a Centre Screen. Not that good a Max Charging Speed, a Fat lard SUVish type thing with the not AWD one going a bit further.

Likely they will be delivered on ECO bias tyres for going further but the official range is not great and the real range will be less than that.

 

No idea how quick they will go through rear tyres, will it be as quick as Skoda Kodiaq or Superb,s can, or Enyaq / ID4,s.

 

Geoff & maybe @Graham Butcher need to remember that some people say one thing and others something else because people are different, live in different places, drive differently and many just drive cars, vans or what ever and do not give things much thought.

Many more do not do Surveys and Motoring Surveys than do, and many more will not post on Social Media than do. 

 

...........

A Compact in the USofA and maybe elsewhere, and good for right handed people in a Left hand drive one..

NCAP might slaughter them though in Europe / EU /UK.

(There is a 2wd option in the UK.)

 

 

Edited 6 March by Rooted

[Ootohere]

All inclusive jolly off to drive left hand drive cars.   The UK motoring journalists thing. 

Waiting to see them in right hand drives on UK roads and the controls used.   Maybe with reading glasses on for some. 

 

 

 

[xman]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/money/electriccars/article-13159533/Mini-Countryman-Electric-review.html?ico=mol_mobile_money

 

Considering that in the above article Ray Massey is a rather large overweight "motoring journalist" who often looks uncomfortably squeezed into even the largest cars and is rarely photographed in any anything smaller, I looked at the photo of him standing next to this latest "Mini" and thought how bloody large and bloated it's become.

 

Mini by name but not by nature.

 

Edited 6 March by xman

[Ootohere]

Time will tell & hopefully the road testers will just how grippy when not on roads in Portugal on OEM tyres.  Those buying the cars might request All Season / All Weather tyres if not an option from ordering. 

It is nice to know from these journalists / reviewers what they do handle like on rainy or cold roads or maybe a bit of snow / ice on UK roads / cambers. 

[Graham Butcher]

7 hours ago, wyx087 said:

What response are you looking to get? Were root's response to points in the video you shared earlier not sensible? 

Major points Geroff's video can be summarised in a paragraph or two. It saves everyone time and effort. If you want to get your point across, just spell it out. Honestly, I don't browse forums to find videos, I browse forums to read text, I go to youtube.com to find youtube videos. 

 

The rise in SUV otherwise known as Chelsea tractors are not exactly related to EV's. 

TBH, I would have thought, if it was not news to anyone, then no response needed.

 

I look at forums as a convenient site for gathering information on a topic, both video and text as I like to think that similar minded folks have already seen it and present to others as something that may be of interest and could save me a long trawl through various sites to find the info, in other words a time saver🙃 .

 

The rise in Chelsea Tractors does also impact on EVs as many of them now are electric. 

[Graham Butcher]

3 hours ago, Rooted said:

All inclusive jolly off to drive left hand drive cars.   The UK motoring journalists thing. 

Waiting to see them in right hand drives on UK roads and the controls used.   Maybe with reading glasses on for some. 

 

 

 

It looks to be an interesting car, the centre screen is not really an issue with the mini, we have got used to that with the original mini, however the hands-free driving option probably won't make it into the UK, or will it?  Why don't they build a small frunk to house the charging cables, who wants to have to perhaps unload the boot in order to dig out the cables when and if they are needed?

[Graham Butcher]

7 hours ago, Winston_Woof said:

which (on the face of it) appears to contradict the figures at the below link.

Whilst there may be a grain of truth in that SUVs/4x4s/Pickups are involved in more pedestrian fatalities isn't that simply a natural result of more of those type of vehicles being on the road. The overall trend is down.

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/reported-road-casualties-great-britain-pedestrian-factsheet-2022/reported-road-casualties-in-great-britain-pedestrian-factsheet-2022

 

Between 2004 and 2022:

• fatalities were down 43% from 671 to 385

• serious injuries (adjusted) decreased by 42%

• pedestrian traffic (distance walked) increased by 16%

 

This is interesting reading but however it does not tell the complete story, the example I gave was for the USA and this one is for the UK, and it fails to mention the fact that speed limits in urban areas have been reduced in some areas from 40 to 30 and in loads of areas, the 30 has now become 20, so that alone will have a dramatic effect on fatal accidents, and it also fails to take account of the average speed in most towns and cities has really tumbled as a result of the increased traffic-calming, bus lanes and cycle lanes that have been introduced over the last 5 years as well as general increase in the number of vehicles on the road.

 

Here in my home city, they have deliberately reduced road width, built cycle lanes and introduced floating bus stops and also slowed traffic driving into the centre be extending the time traffic lights are on red for, to try and curb people driving in and encourage them to cycles, walk or bus into the centre, and this has been done in other locations as well.

[Stonekeeper]

 

Looking at the pictures they handled this without much damage to the vehicles

[Graham Butcher]

@Rooted I have been looking on the DVLA site for details about the numbers of electric cars on the road and those scrapped, and as you said, you'd expect them to know the figures. Well it seems that they don't or they don't want to publish them for some reason.

 

What they do publish is huge great spreadsheets of data with loads of info dating from 2007 to 2022 of numbers of cars registered and ranked in the levels of emissions, and it would appear that some 560,000 electric cars are currently registered 26,760,000 hybrid and ICE cars in England and it does seem that the numbers the worst polluting cars is dropping i.e., those with over 255gm/km CO2 has dropped by 31% in 17 years. Need to dig into these figures a bit more yet.

Edited 6 March by Graham Butcher

[Graham Butcher]

42 minutes ago, Stonekeeper said:

 

Looking at the pictures they handled this without much damage to the vehicles

I thought that following the recent MG problem which was supposed to have had no brakes, that everyone here was saying that was impossible as they have to have a dual circuit?

 

Maybe it is linked to the regenerative braking system? Maybe the car has been driven in one pedal mode for so long that the actual brakes had seized up. Hopefully all will be revealed soon.

[Stonekeeper]

19 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

I thought that following the recent MG problem which was supposed to have had no brakes, that everyone here was saying that was impossible as they have to have a dual circuit?

 

Maybe it is linked to the regenerative braking system? Maybe the car has been driven in one pedal mode for so long that the actual brakes had seized up. Hopefully all will be revealed soon.

 

 

My guess would be a floormat

[Ootohere]

@Graham Butcher You are making up your own story lines.

Did everyone here really say that it was impossible with the MG?   The thread is still on here and posts from everyone that posted. 

 

 

Maybe this time there will be a follow up and the result of the investigation by JLR and the DVSA over what the fault was. 

 

Mark Harper MP was happy as Larry yesterday in Parliament about getting on with passing Legislation on Self Driving Vehicles. 

Edited 6 March by Rooted

[Graham Butcher]

22 minutes ago, Rooted said:

@Graham Butcher You are making up your own story lines.

Did everyone here really say that it was impossible with the MG?   The thread is still on here and posts from everyone that posted. 

 

 

Maybe this time there will be a follow up and the result of the investigation by JLR and the DVSA over what the fault was. 

 

Mark Harper MP was happy as Larry yesterday in Parliament about getting on with passing Legislation on Self Driving Vehicles. 

Well OK, not everyone, that was a typo, I was rushing to go and collect my son, but some did indicate to similar effect.

 

I would have expected that there would have been a full investigation last time with the MG, just as there was supposed to similar with the Tesla crashing and killing the driver.

 

 

[Ootohere]

I have kept an eye out for anything further on the MG electric and Brian Morrison.  Where there is blame there is a claim.

Same with the Edinburgh Tesla that can not transit very wet roads.

 

Maybe Non Disclosure Agreements or just embarrassment. 

[xman]

This article describes the Jaguar I pace and MG incidents, apologies if not relevant to current discussion

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13165115/police-ram-faulty-electric-car-m62-emergency-incident.html

 

 

[wyx087]

Looking on Jaguar manual, it appears there are a number of things can be done:

 

Put it into neutral: "N (Neutral) button: Press to stop propulsion energy being supplied to the vehicle’s driveline system."

https://www.ownerinfo.jaguar.com/document/4K/2022/1656977/proc/G2484666/G3217998?vin=SADHA2A14N1622187

Use parking brake emergency feature to stop the vehicle: "In an emergency, apply and hold the EPB switch to give a controlled reduction in the vehicle's speed. The vehicle can also be brought to a complete stop. "

https://www.ownerinfo.jaguar.com/document/4K/2022/1656977/proc/G2185805/G3218667?vin=SADHA2A14N1622187

 

Although all those actions involve the gear shift buttons. Of course, it could be catastrophic electrical failure, which makes those gear shift button ineffective. But still, mechanical brakes in the car should always be able to eventually override the vehicle propulsion.

 

The Renault 5 and Tesla Cybertruck, to my knowledge, are currently the only vehicles that have electronic controlled brakes (no physical connection).

 

Out of interest, in modern ICE cars, are gear selection done electronically or gear stick mechanically linked to gearbox? (Toyota hybrids are certainly electronic controlled with the joystick gear selector) Are throttle control electronic or direct mechanical connection?

If all are electronic controlled, in what way does powertrain energy storage method (battery vs fossil fuel) play a role in all these stories?

[lol-lol]

15 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

Looking on Jaguar manual, it appears there are a number of things can be done:

 

Put it into neutral: "N (Neutral) button: Press to stop propulsion energy being supplied to the vehicle’s driveline system."

https://www.ownerinfo.jaguar.com/document/4K/2022/1656977/proc/G2484666/G3217998?vin=SADHA2A14N1622187

Use parking brake emergency feature to stop the vehicle: "In an emergency, apply and hold the EPB switch to give a controlled reduction in the vehicle's speed. The vehicle can also be brought to a complete stop. "

https://www.ownerinfo.jaguar.com/document/4K/2022/1656977/proc/G2185805/G3218667?vin=SADHA2A14N1622187

 

Although all those actions involve the gear shift buttons. Of course, it could be catastrophic electrical failure, which makes those gear shift button ineffective. But still, mechanical brakes in the car should always be able to eventually override the vehicle propulsion.

 

The Renault 5 and Tesla Cybertruck, to my knowledge, are currently the only vehicles that have electronic controlled brakes (no physical connection).

 

Out of interest, in modern ICE cars, are gear selection done electronically or gear stick mechanically linked to gearbox? (Toyota hybrids are certainly electronic controlled with the joystick gear selector) Are throttle control electronic or direct mechanical connection?

If all are electronic controlled, in what way does powertrain energy storage method (battery vs fossil fuel) play a role in all these stories?

 

Don't think my Zoe has a physical brake connection.  Maybe my other Renaults too 

 

[Graham Butcher]

9 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

 

Don't think my Zoe has a physical brake connection.  Maybe my other Renaults too 

 

I think all cars have a physical brake connection and it might even be a legal thing, but I suspect the difference is that ICE has a servo powered by the engine and I'm guessing that an electric car has power assistance powered by the traction battery and so if there is a malfunction in the circuitry or a total power loss (unlikely) that the brakes lose any assistance and need extra grunt from the drivers foot to stop the car.

 

I don't know, and I may be wrong on this, but could it be that because the electric car is so quiet that the driver maybe not aware that anything is wrong until they try to stop and apply normal pressure to the brakes and then freeze when the car does not respond in the normal fashion? Compared to a ICE car, the problem more than likely makes itself known with all kinds of strange bangs etc and applying extra pressure just sort of kicks in subconsciously? 

[J.R.]

I'm sure you are correct about the physical brake connection but equally would not be surprised if some like Tesla dont have the failsafe.

 

In both cases modern drivers are usually completely at a loss when they lose servo assistance and genuinely believe that they dont have brakes or steering, how many times have I read people saying just that when their engine has died, its sad to think that some will only think to use their phone rather than their physical capabilities and some have even died while doing so.

 

Braking without servo assistance against a runaway engine on wide open throttle (which would render an old school servo on a petrol engine inoperative anyway) requires almost superhuman effort, I remember seeing an American test film for GM I think where the tester managed it but the force required was colossal, anything but a full hearted do or die stomp on the pedal at speed against full engine power would glaze the pads and probably make it impossible.

 

And if the vehicle is an EV with their often stupidly high torque outut then an electronic failure could be the perfect storm, full unrestrained motor winding melting traction current against unassisted manual braking from a terrified driver.

 

There really should be a kill switch, a proper one where you pull a huge handle that disconnects all power, also the vehecle would have to have manual brakes and steering albeit unassisted.

 

One of the reasons that I choose to remain with manual transmission is having a clutch for if the worse happens.

Edited 6 March by J.R.

[xman]

If there was an issue that left the car cruising at speed and unresponsive to throttle or other inputs then I doubt physical friction brakes would be able to overcome the max torque of the electric motor for long. You could have tens of kw available to the motor and the brakes wouldnt last too long before fading.

[Graham Butcher]

I'm getting unconfirmed reports that this same car also had to get the police involved in the early hours of December 22nd when it just decided to drive itself along the M60 motorway at 100mph and he could not slow it down, and it has been in the dealers on 4 separate occasions for faults, not sure as to the time span of those or the age of the car currently. Hopefully by the morning we get some further clarification so we can then know if the reports are true or BS.

 

Edit: Apparently he was able to get the car into neutral and bring it to a halt, with a police in front and another behind to keep others away. 

Edited 6 March by Graham Butcher

[xman]

6 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

 this same car also had to get the police involved in the early hours of December 22nd when it just decided to drive itself along the M60 motorway at 100mph and he could not slow it down

 

Police Officer: "Do you know you were doing 100mph, Sir?"

 

Driver: "I don't  know what got into the car, it wouldn't listen to me when I asked it to slow down, honest, officer"