the truth about electric cars

[wyx087]

11 hours ago, skomaz said:

And finally, my view is that micro mobility is the ultimate beneficial way forward, albeit I think that needs to include 'micro' cars. 

 

57 minutes ago, skomaz said:

Hmmm...   Currently totally illegal to use anywhere in public which is unlikely to change.

 

Is there anything being done to make micro mobility legal in the near future?

 

The trials are simply stupid. I've rented a few times, but the parking sensibly requirement, while makes sense from policy maker point of view, always puts a doubt in the total rental cost and thus experience. No one in their right mind would park stupidly with their own escooter.

[Graham Butcher]

19 minutes ago, skomaz said:

 

Oops - SNAP!

 

I think the difference is probably to do with maximum speeds etc. and simply because legislation hasn't yet caught up with them.  Also they are classed as 'motor vehicles' rather than 'invalid carriages' which have a lot of exemptions.

 

A Class 3 needs insurance if over a certain weight but at such low speeds is unlikely to do much damage.  A scooter can travel much faster and some are quite heavy so the kinetic energy of them would do much more damage.

 

At some point in the future I'd expect e-scooters will have a separate designated class based on power and weight, above which they will start to be classed as motorbikes...

Yes, I think you are right, the only current legal e-scooters are limited to a maximum speed of 15mph. The ones that Winston_Woof is speaking of only do 8mph and can be either 3 or 4 wheeled and are sit on rather than stand up.

 

The registration plate on the "legal" scooters is more of a identification means for the operators rather than the public being able to report them as the number format and font size does not meet the standard required for normal road going vehicles.

 

[Graham Butcher]

6 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

The trials are simply stupid. I've rented a few times, but the parking sensibly requirement, while makes sense from policy maker point of view, always puts a doubt in the total rental cost and thus experience. No one in their right mind would park stupidly with their own escooter.

True, all too often these are just dropped onto their side and strewn across the footpath where they become real hazards to pedestrians, particularly at nighttime on poorly lit residential streets and an even bigger hazard to partially sighted and blind people. 

[Winston_Woof]

47 minutes ago, skomaz said:

 

Oops - SNAP!

 

I think the difference is probably to do with maximum speeds etc. and simply because legislation hasn't yet caught up with them.  Also they are classed as 'motor vehicles' rather than 'invalid carriages' which have a lot of exemptions.

 

A Class 3 needs insurance if over a certain weight but at such low speeds is unlikely to do much damage.  A scooter can travel much faster and some are quite heavy so the kinetic energy of them would do much more damage.

 

At some point in the future I'd expect e-scooters will have a separate designated class based on power and weight, above which they will start to be classed as motorbikes...

hands up everyone who remembers these being a common sight

[Graham Butcher]

40 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

Nice job redirecting the narrative. It's obviously your strong suit, rather than backing up your claims with evidence.

 

When there is a critical mass of people not clogging up the road with unnecessary cars I will look to go down to 1 car and only drive a car for long distances out of M25. Before then, as I said, my family have whole heartedly adopted public transport when it is efficient (cost and/or time). To my family, getting about does not equal to driving car, it always starts a quick evaluation of what's the best mode of transport.

 

Again, just like EV's. None of what I'm talking about is looking to get people to change today. I'm simply raising awareness and planting the idea. But people like you always seems to take it personally as though I'm commanding a change right now, this hour.

 

I would be very interested if you can quote the bits that make you feel I have changed the narrative. What was I writing before that is different now?

 

It would be good to back up your claims for once.

I really give up with you, you simply cannot comprehend what you have said before and when someone pulls you up for it, you try and make all about the other person rather than accept responsibility for your own actions. The only valid view in your eyes is yours, its no wonder so many people have already told me publicly and via PMs and emails that they have already blocked you. 

 

I personally find that a shame because sometimes you make some excellent and valuable contributions to these discussions, sadly that's not now, and you're dragging this topic down and away from its intended purpose.

Edited 17 May by Graham Butcher

[Graham Butcher]

13 minutes ago, Winston_Woof said:

hands up everyone who remembers these being a common sight

Yes I do, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think they were supplied free to people but as part of the numerous cuts over the years they were dropped and now people have to source their own mobility scooters on the open market?

Edited 17 May by Graham Butcher

[Ootohere]

@Graham Butcher  War Disabled. 'Invacar'. 

Later for Civilian disabled,

 

 

@Winston_Woof I had 2 of them that were used as the base for trikes,

They were just being finally retired when i lost a leg.

My friend with a bike garage had maintained them and got them back.

This was when Motability started and it was mostly Mini,s and the War Disabled Invalid carriages were no longer needed.

 

Just a few weeks ago on facebook, Macduff & Banff when you were a kid.  Someone put up a picture of one outside my dads work and a car with L plates on.

I remembered my mum always said her driving instructor had one leg.

I showed her the picture and it was his Invalid Carriage and her car with the L plate.

He had his 3 wheeler posted in another picture and it was Metallic Blue.  Maybe my dad painted it for him. 

Edited 17 May by Ootohere

[wyx087]

11 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

I really give up with you, you simply cannot comprehend what you have said before and when someone pulls you up for it, you try and make all about the other person rather than accept responsibility for your own actions. The only valid view in your eyes is yours, its no wonder so many people have already told me publicly and via PMs and emails that they have already blocked you. 

 

I personally find that a shame because sometimes you make some excellent and valuable contributions to these discussions, sadly that's not now, and you're dragging this topic down and away from its intended purpose.

More words. No substance to back up your useless words.

 

Here's a handful of contradiction to your points, just in that post alone:

 

"you simply cannot comprehend what you have said before"

I refer you to my consistency:

On 15/05/2024 at 22:26, wyx087 said:

The problem is, I've mentioned many times, "getting about" should not be equal to "driving a car".

56 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

To my family, getting about does not equal to driving car

 

"you try and make all about the other person"

Again, I refer you to the reason I'm bring it up:

57 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

Again, just like EV's. None of what I'm talking about is looking to get people to change today. I'm simply raising awareness and planting the idea.

 

"rather than accept responsibility for your own actions"

52 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

my family have whole heartedly adopted public transport when it is efficient

 

"The only valid view in your eyes is yours"

20 hours ago, wyx087 said:

I do understand London is a different kettle of fish

 

 

Come back when you can back up your smear campaign against me with evidence.

[Graham Butcher]

@Ootohere here is further information about them, I must admit I never knew that some of them were made right here in my county, and not too far away from me either. I do remember seeing a few on the back of lorries but assumed they were just passing through the county on their way to being delivered.

 

Invacar - Wikipedia

Edited 17 May by Graham Butcher

[Winston_Woof]

"On 31 March 2003, almost all of the remaining Invacars owned by the government were recalled and scrapped because of safety concerns"

Hubnuts example must have missed the recall ;o)

[Ootohere]

They were sold off for parts, (Not sure those selling them were just supposed to store them,

and some just disappeared, maybe intended to be scrapped but went to become proper 'trikes' & kept the reg number. 

[Graham Butcher]

Here is some more news on the Tesla supercharger on going situation.

 

 

[skomaz]

2 hours ago, wyx087 said:

 

 

Is there anything being done to make micro mobility legal in the near future?

 

The trials are simply stupid. I've rented a few times, but the parking sensibly requirement, while makes sense from policy maker point of view, always puts a doubt in the total rental cost and thus experience. No one in their right mind would park stupidly with their own escooter.

 

I'm personally not aware of anything being done to make them legal but it should be.  Mind you - it took the Govt 11 years of 'trials' to finally allow Longer Semi Trailers (LST's) to be formally used on the road outside of the trail so it could take a while, by which time something else will have come along!

 

In terms of the parking requirement I totally disagree - they need to be maintained and charged and not cause a hazard to other road users so the requirements are valid and a reasonable way of ensuring the aforementioned happens.  The history of bike hire and scooter hire trials shows us a lack of parking requirements means the bikes and scooters simply become 'abandoned' wherever, unusable, vandalised, or stolen etc. - it's why most of the trial schemes or bike hire schemes have been withdrawn.  They were a good idea ruined by the inconsiderate actions of a few.

[Stonekeeper]

Trial period extended to 2026?

[Graham Butcher]

This video by Geoff buys Cars has just been uploaded about LEZ being introduced in Aberdeen, Dundee and Edinburgh this year and he claims that the air quality has been tested and is deemed to be within the safe and legal limits.

 

I just checked the air monitoring sites in Aberdeen and he is indeed correct, apart from the Docks and the industrial areas which are currently in the yellow sectors for quality, all other areas are in the green and low down in the green in terms of quality, the lower the number, the better the air is. The bad readings are coming from the Bridge of Don Industrial Estate, The Docks and the East and West Tullos industrial estates?

 

Maybe @Ootohere could confirm if these LEZ are actually going ahead or if he is aware of them and the fact that the air overall is actually good?

 

This is yet another illustration to my mind how we are all being gas lighted over the air quality and the cameras are destined for other uses in the future once they have been rolled out?

 

 

Edited 17 May by Graham Butcher

[lol-lol]

Self driving cars, motorcycles and scooters all here or coming soon.   Sorts out the scooters being in the wrong place, left untidily etc.........

 

[wyx087]

1 hour ago, skomaz said:

 

I'm personally not aware of anything being done to make them legal but it should be.  Mind you - it took the Govt 11 years of 'trials' to finally allow Longer Semi Trailers (LST's) to be formally used on the road outside of the trail so it could take a while, by which time something else will have come along!

 

In terms of the parking requirement I totally disagree - they need to be maintained and charged and not cause a hazard to other road users so the requirements are valid and a reasonable way of ensuring the aforementioned happens.  The history of bike hire and scooter hire trials shows us a lack of parking requirements means the bikes and scooters simply become 'abandoned' wherever, unusable, vandalised, or stolen etc. - it's why most of the trial schemes or bike hire schemes have been withdrawn.  They were a good idea ruined by the inconsiderate actions of a few.

11 years! The escooter trial was started in 2021. So probably nothing before 2030 🤣 

 

1 hour ago, Stonekeeper said:

Trial period extended to 2026?

Upon checking, yes.

https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/electric-scooter-rental-trial

"The second phase of the rental trial launched on 25 September and is being operated by Lime and Voi. This is in line with Department for Transport national guidance that allows e-scooter trials across the UK to run until 31 May 2026."

 

No hope of private ones being legal before then.

[Ootohere]

Geoff Buys Cars can say what he wants really as he does not stay in any of those places. 

Actually the roads and routes might well be there better for this.  He should visit Dundee and Aberdeen and see the city centre roads and routes now. 

Good that the schemes are finally going to be introduced. 

 

PS.

What a muppet.  First with the Grey crap.   Scorchio.  Scottish Sun, as bad as The Sun or The Times.

 He has no idea really about Dundee, Aberdeen and Edinburgh and wealth. Pretty poor places!

Just another ****** that goes with the usual tripe.

 

Rishi Sunak only became a MP in 2015. 

As far as Scotland, pollution reduction,  and Net Zero, EV,s etc.   & much else.  He is Johnny come lately. 

 

 

https://evfleetworld.co.uk/how-a-former-dundee-petrol-station-became-one-of-europes-most-innovative-charging-hubs

Sorry. google it if interested.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 17 May by Ootohere

[Graham Butcher]

36 minutes ago, Ootohere said:

Geoff Buys Cars can say what he wants really as he does not stay in any of those places. 

Actually the roads and routes might well be there better for this.  He should visit Dundee and Aberdeen and see the city centre roads and routes now. 

Good that the schemes are finally going to be introduced. 

 

PS.

What a muppet.  First with the Grey crap.   Scorchio.  Scottish Sun, as bad as The Sun or The Times.

 He has no idea really about Dundee, Aberdeen and Edinburgh and wealth. Pretty poor places!

Just another ****** that goes with the usual tripe.

 

http://fleetworld.co.uk/how-a-former-petrol-station-became-one-of-europes-most-innovative-ev-charging-hubs

 

 

 

Oops, sorry my bad, I hadn't realised that traffic just materialises in those locations without using the A944, A93, A92, A956, A96 or the A978 where the monitoring stations are reading low and in the green safe zone. So do these polluting vehicles get beamed down into the docks etc from spaceships or lowered by helicopter to keep the main roads clear? 😆 Or is more likely to be processes etc being carried in the factories in those areas, I wonder??

 

I went to look at that link you posted and all I get is this, is it working OK for you or has that site got a problem?

 

Edited 17 May by Graham Butcher

[Ootohere]

Yes, 

I said if interested google it.    As to the roads entering the cities and in the cities now.  The lowering of emissions has not just started.

There are still dirty buses around and other vehicles.

 

There are very few crap high emissions cars about because really the areas are not poor poor places. 

 

The worst are gone.

The was Ann Gloag and Brian Soutar's berry busses that started them off with 'Stagecoach'. 

 

 

Edited 17 May by Ootohere

[Graham Butcher]

OK would that be the Clepington Road charging hub then by any chance? I like the idea with the rainwater collection system and filtering it to free clean drinking water to drivers but at the same time I sincerely hope that they will actually look after the system and maintain it and keep the storage of water safely and suitable chilled to prevent bacteria from growing in it or the results could be nasty.

 

I still fail to see the logic in this LEZ starting if the figures are already low. Do people up there not use gas for heating, is all heating electric? I ask because in other areas where I have noticed bad air being detected, it generally seems to be in large residential areas where gas is used for heating and cooking and monitoring stations right next to main trunk roads which I know to be very busy during the day are reading lower than those on the residential estates?

[Winston_Woof]

we not only use gas but we have a log burner. feel free to ostracize me ;o)

[Ootohere]

@Graham Butcher  The poor poor people are freezing to death, trying to keep warm burning their scratch cards and warming their hands with Vapes & cigs or rolly ups. Shooting up and sniffing any old gear or drinking buckfast.

 

If you know the town centres you will know how little parking there is near shops anyway now.

Pedestrian area in Dundee & one way or closed roads. Same in Aberdeen in the zone. 

As to Edinburgh now with Taxis cleaner, and busses, the tram and again limited places to park there is no need for traffic passing through.

Check out the cities and see the vehicles there now and just how few will not comply.

 

The issue is people looking and not understanding the building which were tenements with flats above shops, offices etc.

There are new flats, student accommodations and very little properties with parking for private owners and resident parking.

There are multi-storey car parks, even with EV chargers and nobody dead there unless they are jumping off them. 

It is hitting the ground that kills you!

 

The deliveries are the issues.

Not shoppers & customers getting to places. There are exclusions. & Dundee & Aberdeen zones are quite small areas. 

 

Really the important thing to remember is that Rishi Sunak MP / PM has very little to do with anything in Scotland.

He pops in and out for photo ops. 

He pushed back the 2030 deadline for the UK, he has to do with changes in grants, but there was and is a Grant Scheme in Scotland.

7 Tory MP's with constituencies in Scotland do have some influence but not much over the Net Zero drive in Scotland.

 

 

 

Edited 17 May by Ootohere

[Graham Butcher]

41 minutes ago, Ootohere said:

@Graham Butcher  The poor poor people are freezing to death, trying to keep warm burning their scratch cards and warming their hands with Vapes & cigs or rolly ups. Shooting up and sniffing any old gear or drinking buckfast.

 

If you know the town centres you will know how little parking there is near shops anyway now.

Pedestrian area in Dundee & one way or closed roads. Same in Aberdeen in the zone. 

As to Edinburgh now with Taxis cleaner, and busses, the tram and again limited places to park there is no need for traffic passing through.

Check out the cities and see the vehicles there now and just how few will not comply.

 

The issue is people looking and not understanding the building which were tenements with flats above shops, offices etc.

There are new flats, student accommodations and very little properties with parking for private owners and resident parking.

There are multi-storey car parks, even with EV chargers and nobody dead there unless they are jumping off them. 

It is hitting the ground that kills you!

 

The deliveries are the issues.

Not shoppers & customers getting to places. There are exclusions. & Dundee & Aberdeen zones are quite small areas. 

 

Really the important thing to remember is that Rishi Sunak MP / PM has very little to do with anything in Scotland.

He pops in and out for photo ops. 

He pushed back the 2030 deadline for the UK, he has to do with changes in grants, but there was and is a Grant Scheme in Scotland.

7 Tory MP's with constituencies in Scotland do have some influence but not much over the Net Zero drive in Scotland.

 

Looking at the maps you posted, the only sensor/monitor in the zone is the one catching the air being blown from the docks like I said, the dock area is higher and that sensor is located in Market Street with the junction of Poynernook Road and the wind direction today there is southeast and with the docks being on the right, that would explain the high reading on that sensor.

 

 

 

 

[Ootohere]

@Graham Butcher  I know the place like the back of my hand. I lived and worked in Central Dundee and my pals were flat owners.

I was based in the Wellgate Centre for 24 years.   I worked for Dundee City Council.

 

Same in Aberdeen & Edinburgh,

family or friends live there or have properties.

 

The Low Emission Zones are a great idea IMO.     

Maybe those not from Dundee, Aberdeen or Edinburgh should go bother about their local.  

 

Breath your own clean air, or not clean air. 

 

PS

Dock area is at Sea Level. Piers just above the height of ships water line. 

In Dundee behind the water front is lower land that floods and cellars that flood. 

Cellars well back towards the Wellgate and start of the Hilltown flood.

There are tunnels at sea level going under the waterfront area. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 17 May by Ootohere