28 minutes ago, Ootohere said:

Charge speed is pathetic and paying 59 pence a kWh for this.  No price on chargers bit says 40 minute max stay.  It is actually 50 mins.  EDIT max speed reached 36kW.

 

 

 

 

odd one is it not as so many chargers and not many people there so is it the model of charger or power to the site ? Surely cannot be the site and the charger should be supplying very close to 50 kWs with the Mini's max speed and only 37% SOC.  Odd one. 

 

If I was there with the Zoe I might change to the AC charging as it would probably be cheaper and not a whole lot less slower ie hopefully 22 kWs and saving many pence per kWh.     

 

Odd. I could and sometimes get 54 kW on these chargers right up to 90%.   The thing is there is a £2 minimum charge so really not worth jumping about chargers incase the next one is worse, or worse still will not start. 

1 hour ago, Ootohere said:

Charge speed is pathetic and paying 59 pence a kWh for this.  No price on chargers bit says 40 minute max stay.  It is actually 50 mins.  EDIT max speed reached 36kW.    45 minutes to get 21.10 kWh, £12.47.    that was to recharge for just 65 miles driven. 

 

 

 

 

 

There's a thought:
 

Equipment used to measure and sell petrol is controlled by law and all pumps have to be made to an approved pattern, tested and approved before they can be used.
 

Fuel pumps are tested by Trading Standards Officers for accuracy and to make sure they are within the law. We also keep a record of any complaints made. In addition, many petrol stations employ engineers to test their equipment for accuracy to control the stocks and can use authorised officers to certify new equipment or equipment in use after a repair.
 

Fuel pumps are sealed to prevent adjustment and fraud. They must operate within tight guidelines.
 

The equipment is designed to measure the volume of fuel sold and then multiply this volume by the price per litre, to calculate the price to pay. In this calculation, the price will be rounded to the nearest penny.
 

The fuel is measured by volume and this is used to decide the price to pay. When the price of fuel increases, the amount of fuel becomes less. As the volume sold increases, the price goes up.
 

The law says any error on selling petrol can be no more than 2p.

The price charged per litre must be clearly visible to the user before they begin to dispense fuel from the pump


Does any of the above apply to EV charging points and if not, why not?

 

7 minutes ago, Winston_Woof said:

There's a thought:
 

Equipment used to measure and sell petrol is controlled by law and all pumps have to be made to an approved pattern, tested and approved before they can be used.
 

Fuel pumps are tested by Trading Standards Officers for accuracy and to make sure they are within the law. We also keep a record of any complaints made. In addition, many petrol stations employ engineers to test their equipment for accuracy to control the stocks and can use authorised officers to certify new equipment or equipment in use after a repair.
 

Fuel pumps are sealed to prevent adjustment and fraud. They must operate within tight guidelines.
 

The equipment is designed to measure the volume of fuel sold and then multiply this volume by the price per litre, to calculate the price to pay. In this calculation, the price will be rounded to the nearest penny.
 

The fuel is measured by volume and this is used to decide the price to pay. When the price of fuel increases, the amount of fuel becomes less. As the volume sold increases, the price goes up.
 

The law says any error on selling petrol can be no more than 2p.

The price charged per litre must be clearly visible to the user before they begin to dispense fuel from the pump


Does any of the above apply to EV charging points and if not, why not?

 

apparently there is this (as a starter for 10)


https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/the-public-charge-point-regulations-2023-guidance/public-charge-point-regulations-2023-guidance

16 minutes ago, Winston_Woof said:

Fuel pumps are tested by Trading Standards Officers for accuracy and to make sure they are within the law. We also keep a record of any complaints made. In addition, many petrol stations employ engineers to test their equipment for accuracy to control the stocks and can use authorised officers to certify new equipment or equipment in use after a repair.

Many petrol stations also keep 25 or 50l calibrated fuel cans for self-testing their pumps between visits by Trading Standards and/or engineers (Eg Gilbarco ).

11 minutes ago, Winston_Woof said:

apparently there is this (as a starter for 10)


https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/the-public-charge-point-regulations-2023-guidance/public-charge-point-regulations-2023-guidance

I may have missed it while reading through that - but I did not see any reference to periodic testing for energy metering accuracy - as is the case with liquid fuels. 

29 minutes ago, Winston_Woof said:

The fuel is measured by volume and this is used to decide the price to pay. When the price of fuel increases, the amount of fuel becomes less. As the volume sold increases, the price goes up.

 

That blindingly obvious (to most people) and badly composed statement seems out of place with the rest of the information.

 

 

2 chargers out of order here.  1 will not unlock and one had DC CCS out of service.  So 2 CCS available.  The BMW sitting for 4 hours charging on a 11kW AC.  31 pence for it. 37 pence for the rapid. Getting 39 kW max on this one charging from 50%. Minimum charge £5.  Which is why charging now and next time I will also get £5 worth.

 

 

Edited 3 August, 20241 yr by Ootohere

12 minutes ago, J.R. said:

 

That blindingly obvious (to most people) and badly composed statement seems out of place with the rest of the information.

 

 

.

DC chargers use lots of power to convert 3 phase AC to DC which must add to the price ie the circa 10% loss has to be paid for and operator will no doubt.

 

Wonder what device they would use to measure kwhs ?

 

1 hour ago, Warrior193 said:

I may have missed it while reading through that - but I did not see any reference to periodic testing for energy metering accuracy - as is the case with liquid fuels. 

neither did I 

1 hour ago, J.R. said:

 

That blindingly obvious (to most people) and badly composed statement seems out of place with the rest of the information.

 

 

don't blame me lol

I stole most of that from Coventry Council Trading Standards

https://www.coventry.gov.uk/trading-standards/weights-measures

European Car of the Year ie Renault Scenic order by me.

 

Out of sync with most Scenics bought I have gone for the 60 rather than the 87 kwh model.

 

Already been made in factory and shipping today to Bristol docks.

 

Good discount off retail, thanks Startin.

 

4 hours ago, lol-lol said:

.

DC chargers use lots of power to convert 3 phase AC to DC which must add to the price ie the circa 10% loss has to be paid for and operator will no doubt.

 

Wonder what device they would use to measure kwhs ?

 

I would assume standard Kwhr "smart" meters.

Edited 3 August, 20241 yr by Warrior193

2 hours ago, Winston_Woof said:

don't blame me lol

I stole most of that from Coventry Council Trading Standards

 

I didn't and I had realised it had been copied.

5 hours ago, Paws4Thot said:

Many petrol stations also keep 25 or 50l calibrated fuel cans for self-testing their pumps between visits by Trading Standards and/or engineers (Eg Gilbarco ).

 

Perhaps Mercedes F1 teams need some lessons in this as well as using scales?

55 minutes ago, Warrior193 said:

I would assume standard Kwhr "smart" meters.

 

A device which can measure both voltage and current and record tge result every second or so and download those readings to a computer to analyse. Probably does need octopus's Kraken system but it would be good to know what we see on the charge screen is accurate and hopefully to less than 1% in error and leans in our favour if any.

 

With AC it shows it might show us what we have taken, many ac have no screen for data, and then we have 10% or so as our EVs convert that AC to high voltage DC, some reports say with losses over 10% and other say closer to 20% but lots of dispute about such things.

 

As long as it is much cheaper than hydrocarbons and come from renewable sources I am happy.

 

2 hours ago, lol-lol said:

A device which can measure both voltage and current and record tge result every second or so and download those readings to a computer to analyse.

It's not as simple as just voltage and current, that measures VA not kW - that depends on the power factor too.

35 minutes ago, PetrolDave said:

It's not as simple as just voltage and current, that measures VA not kW - that depends on the power factor too.

 

You went there.

 

I would have thought those DC chargers have significant PF issues but I need to dig deeper in to how they work. They we high value items I could see when I was involved in the imports for Source London before Total bought the network.

 

I gather there is some new tech coming around which can potentially improve the efficiency from 90% to 99% which would be great if not too expensive 

 

With the quantum leaps in energy density, battery chemistry leading to even faster charging cars, latest batch of Chinese cars are looking at rates of some 550 kws, up from 350 kws so charging times of about 9 minutes for a decent sized battery.

 

Vorsprung durk tecnik, or whatever it was and now we should be writing that in Manderin.

 

6 hours ago, lol-lol said:

European Car of the Year ie Renault Scenic order by me.

To replace the Zoe or your hybrid?

 

10 hours ago, Warrior193 said:

I may have missed it while reading through that - but I did not see any reference to periodic testing for energy metering accuracy - as is the case with liquid fuels. 

Is there periodic testing for home electricity meters? Are electricity meters known to go out of cal?

 

Different measuring device, different ways to go out of cal, so different requirements.

3 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

To replace the Zoe or your hybrid?

 

Is there periodic testing for home electricity meters? Are electricity meters known to go out of cal?

 

Different measuring device, different ways to go out of cal, so different requirements.

Yes, electricity meters can go out of calibration - utility providers normally have a set schedule for replacing meters, usually on a time basis.

A user may request a meter to be tested if they believe it not to be accurate.

33 minutes ago, Warrior193 said:

Yes, electricity meters can go out of calibration - utility providers normally have a set schedule for replacing meters, usually on a time basis.

A user may request a meter to be tested if they believe it not to be accurate.

Home electricity meter is replaced every 10-20 years. Meaning the electrical companies (whose profit margins are on the line) deem high enough percentage of meters retains ability to measure within tolerance for over 10 years.

 

On the other hand, how often do fuel pump require recalibration?

 

Again, different tech, different approach is needed. Common sense is to go back to first principles and think what is actually required.

7 hours ago, wyx087 said:

To replace the Zoe or your hybrid?

Is there periodic testing for home electricity meters? Are electricity meters known to go out of cal?

Different measuring device, different ways to go out of cal, so different requirements.

 

I wanted to replace both ie chop in both but the local Renault dealer wanted the Zoe like one would welcome a lepper with covid and the clap. The market value of the Zoe is so far below what the PCP finance has outstanding is so many thousands different the just did not want to take that hit now and would rather put that off until next year when they have to take it back at the end of the PCP.  I hope they will sell it to me, not for the £13k that will be outstanding but for closer to £8k which is what I expect it will we worth in a years time.

 

The Arkana 1.333 MHEV they were relatively happy to take back, still gather they was a gap but they agreed on a scratch return and it is only two year in to a 4 year PCP as is the Zoe deal.  I think Renault are very very keen to sell the electric cars at the moment at I strongly suspect that Renault UK, Supported by Renault France, are offering subsidies to get these sales.  I think Renault France are supporting the 4.9% financing with Euros, they can get cheaper deals in Euros of course and because the pound has been quit strong I think there has been extra discounts supported above the normal dealer margins.  It has been like pushing an open door on asking for discounts. I am a very good customer of theirs ie a new car every year for the last 4 years as well as servicing etc but they do treat me very well which I appreciate, luck to have found such a good dealership IMO.

 

I will use the Zoe for the shorter journeys for the next year to try and keep the annual mileage close-ish to the nominated Scenic PCP mileage. Still a good car for short to medium journeys.

 

Lots of rumours that a high percentage of smart meters are duff.  Mine seems fine and I have lots of devices ie my various home batteries doted around the house which I know how much power, via their own meters, plus some inline meters on the solar feeds, and Octopus's dashboard on their app, and their billing, to know quite accurately what power is going where but I would like to see the same with the car and really need to get in to OBD2 Car Scanner apps like Bjorn Nyland uses.  Quite pleased with the small battery Ariya/Scenic charge curve, clearly the 60 kWh battery is well over 60 or even 63 the way it charges close to 100%, big buffers me thinks, SOC % is very rough/misleading to  suggest to owners to stop charging at indicated 99% when in fact it will go on to add another 5% or so if one just hang s on. Not recommended to do often but there if one can for the occasional longer journeys ie over 250 miles when a stop not convenient.  Zoe does the same, hits 100% but continues to take charge, wish it would show over 100%. Then when you drive it take ten miles of more to take off that first 15 ie drops back down to 99%. Scenic should arrive early September and will be very rare I think with more than 90% of sales going to the 87 kWh battery version. 

 

  

Harbour gala car park closed to public.  Will get an AC charge to full. DC still not repaired.

 

Edited 4 August, 20241 yr by Ootohere

Barstewrd.  Checked phone and charger had stopped.  Now charged £5 for 20 minutes and probably not 5 kW.  CPS says can do nothing.   This is the third time here this has happened and their accounts have never sorted .  But then my account is sitting at £140.   Monday I will get on to South Ayrshire Council.   Now it will be 10.29 before fully charged. 

Edited 4 August, 20241 yr by Ootohere

39 minutes ago, Ootohere said:

Barstewrd.  Checked phone and charger had stopped.  Now charged £5 for 20 minutes and probably not 5 kW.  CPS says can do nothing.   This is the third time here this has happened and their accounts have never sorted .  But then my account is sitting at £140.   Monday I will get on to South Ayrshire Council.   Now it will be 10.29 before fully charged. 

I wonder just much time you have had to spend in chasing up on your accounts and duff chargers etc in total since you went electric?