3 hours ago, lol-lol said:

 

In transportation we already have extensive rules of carrying lithium batteries which are classified as dangerous good with quite some small amount of lithium battery  time.

they are only allow air transport under very strict rules and same for sea transport, land moving is oft the option that is used to avoid the restrictive rules ie the silk road or the very strict carriage rules.

No sure what this video has to do with a how vehicles with lithium ion batteries, compared to a cheap SE asia e-bike where most people know that quality can be somewhat variable with goods from this area. Who knows what had happened before.  He may have accidently dropped the battery down a concrete stairway before and the case may have been in a very damaged state, we just do not know but we do know the spontaneous fires of EVs are rarer than petrol cars.

 

“The overall arching takeaway (from the data) is that the rate of fires happening is less for EVs than petrol or diesel cars, and quite substantially,” said James Edmondson, Research Director at Cambridge, England-based independent researcher IDTechEx in an interview. Edmondson said various surveys showed EVs represented far less of the reported fires than might be expected given their market share. Estimates by the Phosphorous, Inorganic & Nitrogen Flame Retardants Association reported 55 fires per billion miles travelled in ICE vehicles and five fires per billion for EVs. A report from AutoinsuranceEX said EVs exhibited 61 times fewer fires per 100,000 sales than ICE vehicles.  

 

Well I thought that the video fully explained the very points that you mentioned, yes the risks are low, but the consequences are far worse than that poised by someone one carrying a jerry can full of petrol into a lift. Of course petrol cars catch fire more often than ZEVs, there are many more times of them for a kick-off and also secondly many of them are far older and therefore more prone to neglect and poor maintenance, as they get older and worth less many people will skimp on maintenance. 

 

Many fires as we have already mentioned before on both ZEVs and ICE are not in anyway related to the power source, petrol or traction battery, but other sources, such as DIR electrics, smoking related fires with etc, very few fires result from the petrol or the traction batteries, but if and when they get caught up in the fire the results are poles apart for severity and danger levels, petrol fires can be controlled pretty effectively and fire brigades have had decades of experience in dealing with petrol, the same cannot be said for Lithium-ion batteries and toxic gases of the latter can kill long before the fire would.

 

Please don't think that the video was anti-EV, it was not and John went to great lengths to point that out and when as he said, you get a massive fine for parking a ICE car in ZEV charging bay but only a small fine for jumping traffic lights at red, says it all. There has not been proper joined thought process, the former offence just means that someone may not be able to charged, the latter, people could be killed, surely you of all people can see the relevance of the message he was conveying. 

 

The source of the battery in the video is not important, if it came from Asia or the very best factory in the world for batteries, in the event of an incident, the consequences of a failure can be deadly.

 

I have a ton of equipment myself that runs on 18650 Lithium-ion cells, of which the most that are used in the gear that I have is 2, to that a maximum voltage of 2 x 3.7v = 7.4v, in a Tesla, there can be over 7,000 of these 18650 cells in its batteries connected in various way to give the car its voltage and also it capacity (AH) required to drive the car, so thats at least 3,500 times more likely that a single cell could malfunction than its likely to happen in my ring door camera.

 

To put it in another context, if you have a petrol lawn mower, then there is a chance at least that you are storing in your garage / shed at least a litre of petrol either in its fuel tank or both its tank and a storage can, but would you be happy storing over 7000 litres of petrol in the same location.

 

You also mentioned that we have strict rules for transportation of Lithium batteries as they are classified as dangerous goods and yet planes carry thousands of litres of aviation fuel in their tanks and the military even have flying tankers for air to air refuelling in flight, that kind of shows, just how highly dangerous lithium-ion batteries can be and in a few years time, we will have car transporter ships carrying nothing but such batteries fitted in cars, and they can transport thousands of cars at the same time.

 

Yes, we have been shipping new cars all around the world for decades by such ships, but it is only just lately that we have had so many ships sunk or destroyed by fires in the cars. When you consider that modern cars have fuses to blow in the event of an electrical fault but years ago that was not true, but the number of fires has increased, so something is going wrong.

Edited 5 August, 20241 yr by Graham Butcher

1 hour ago, lol-lol said:

 

Century is a hundred year, millennium is a thousand.  I think we are due to see a rise from zero for EVs, is it £10 its going up to in the first year and I would have thought it would be £20 in the second year rather than £190 as that would be more than some ICE cars. Hopefully Labour will clarify.  

 

Some talk that some EV owners will take their car off the road in Feb 2026, the re register in March 2026 and pay the £10 but then the will have March registrations rather April to December or so which could save then a bit of money.

 

UK Treasury will need to up the 45p and 25p per mile rates to compensate users or I can see even more people withdrawing their car for work use and especially after the 10 miles when the rate drops.  We would do this within HMRC / HMCE when te dreaded 10k mileage threshold hit and wait for it to restart on April 6th and the full rate return.

God I miss the 63p per mile rate there was for cars over 2 litres.

 

I'll still be dead ;o)

9 hours ago, lol-lol said:

 

Century is a hundred year, millennium is a thousand.  I think we are due to see a rise from zero for EVs, is it £10 its going up to in the first year and I would have thought it would be £20 in the second year rather than £190 as that would be more than some ICE cars. Hopefully Labour will clarify.  

 

Some talk that some EV owners will take their car off the road in Feb 2026, the re register in March 2026 and pay the £10 but then the will have March registrations rather April to December or so which could save then a bit of money.

 

 

We will see what the Labour Chancellor sticks with for maybe 2026 and onwards.  Will it be as the Conservative and unionist Chancellors announced and have being introduced?   There are going to be the near quarter of all First Registrations or passenger cars being BEV,s.      Road taxing per mile and a basic tax of cars by weight, size and seating capacity might just help to have less of the BEV,s being big fat heavy cars and not that efficient at using energy / electricity.   A limit on there possible max speed and acceleration might also help.  Or just impose a very hight taxation on the ridiculous for sale and use on UK roads. 

It should be that at the Full revenue weight of an electric passenger vehicle *(car or minibuses,)  for UK roads at UK speed limits and at 0*,C they should be achieving 4 miles a kWh.  Any ones when checked annually or bi-annual and that have not bettered the likes of 3.5 miles a kWh should have an additional penalty to be paid.   This should be easy enough to impose on Business users getting BIK assistance from the general public / treasury.  It is not right that people can charge at home pay a domestic Tax rate to charge vehicles while at public charges others pay the high tax rate. ,,,,New ICE card  should also be required to meet fuel efficiencies.   4 miles to a litre of fuel at Full Revenue weight does not seem unreasonable.  

 

Lots of big fat lumps of cars are going around towns and cities and rural areas with just a driver and there are bigger and bigger BEV,s and PHEV,s that are the same, big battery cars that are needed for occasional longer journeys and yet getting Tax Payer assistance to be bought or leased for Business use.

MOTABILITY are assisting in people getting pretty large BEV,s and this is because Manufacturers want these vehicles sold / first registered.

Encouraging bigger and heavier vehicles than the person or family need for daily use buy making the advance payment cheap is madness IMO.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 5 August, 20241 yr by Ootohere

1 hour ago, Stonekeeper said:

 

Definitely worth doing the re registering for road tax for EVs in March 2025 to get another year virtually free it is looking like. 

 

 

'It is looking like', 

is it actually correct that you can do this?

13 minutes ago, Ootohere said:

'It is looking like', 

is it actually correct that you can do this?

 

I sincerely hope not as it's a right fiddle if it is...

I'm getting Tesla's brand new Powerwall 3 One of first batch of customer shipment arriving later this month. Thanks to 0% VAT introduced in February. Price have come down quite a lot.

 

13.5 kWh of storage capacity, installed outdoor with Tesla's well established legendary thermal management and BMS.

Headline 11 kW discharge power to power the whole house.

Whole home emergency power supply, meaning everything in the home continue to work, including solar generation and Leaf V2H.

With Leaf 18 kWh usable battery, there's 16 kW of discharge power and enough energy capacity live normally for 3 days in darkest winter and 5+ days in summer thanks to solar.

If a Tesla Cybertruck rolls up, I can combine its 100 kWh to power my house for weeks. Similar tech hopefully will come to regular Tesla cars in the future.

 

 

 

 

Re VED.

The introduction of it is in April 2025.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/introduction-of-vehicle-excise-duty-for-zero-emission-cars-vans-and-motorcycles-from-2025/introduction-of-vehicle-excise-duty-for-zero-emission-cars-vans-and-motorcycles-from-2025

VED is valid for 1 year.

Therefore, getting a valid VED in March 2025 for £0 would effectively mean one more year 0 VED.

 

Everything is done by the book, only time will tell if this loophole gets patched.

33 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

I'm getting Tesla's brand new Powerwall 3 One of first batch of customer shipment arriving later this month. Thanks to 0% VAT introduced in February. Price have come down quite a lot.

 

13.5 kWh of storage capacity, installed outdoor with Tesla's well established legendary thermal management and BMS.

Headline 11 kW discharge power to power the whole house.

Whole home emergency power supply, meaning everything in the home continue to work, including solar generation and Leaf V2H.

With Leaf 18 kWh usable battery, there's 16 kW of discharge power and enough energy capacity live normally for 3 days in darkest winter and 5+ days in summer thanks to solar.

If a Tesla Cybertruck rolls up, I can combine its 100 kWh to power my house for weeks. Similar tech hopefully will come to regular Tesla cars in the future.

 

 

I have similar with my GivEnergy All-in-One system (6.5kW max output though) and my ID.4 on V3.2 software. Of course, until a charger capable of bi-directional charging is available then V2H capability is moot. If it becomes available and I buy one, I will need some re-wiring as my charger is on the unprotected side of the Gateway so my charger does not drain the battery if a power cut occurs while charging the car.

1 minute ago, Luckypants said:

I have similar with my GivEnergy All-in-One system (6.5kW max output though) and my ID.4 on V3.2 software. Of course, until a charger capable of bi-directional charging is available then V2H capability is moot. If it becomes available and I buy one, I will need some re-wiring as my charger is on the unprotected side of the Gateway so my charger does not drain the battery if a power cut occurs while charging the car.

Giv-AIO was my 2nd choice. But their website recommends a canopy as minimum when putting it outside, didn't want to do that. It is also a bit thicker than Powerwall, doesn't look as sleek. Local control of Givenergy products are great though, where as Tesla requires going through their server. Just like cars, no perfect product.

 

Conversional wisdom is to put EV charging on unprotected side of home battery, reason as you said. But I plan to put it just after meter for everything, as you have sussed out. Power cuts are not frequent and draining is not big problem, and sometimes I may want to charge EV from the batteries. For example Tesla's drive on sunshine feature

https://www.notateslaapp.com/software-updates/upcoming-features/id/1392/first-look-at-tesla-s-drive-on-sunshine-feature-that-will-charge-your-tesla-with-excess-solar-energy

 

But due to Leaf V2H, functionally I will only gain EPS during rare powercuts and zero grid draw/export when Leaf isn't here. It's like an expensive toy for me 😅  Due to having V2H, ROI on battery will not be good.

1 hour ago, skomaz said:

 

I sincerely hope not as it's a right fiddle if it is...

 

Tax avoidance is not illegal unlike tax evasion and I think it was one English gentleman who said that organising ones affair to pay the least tax was something all should be doing within the framework of the law.

 

There is no spirit of the law, only the written law.

4 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

 

Tax avoidance is not illegal unlike tax evasion and I think it was one English gentleman who said that organising ones affair to pay the least tax was something all should be doing within the framework of the law.

 

There is no spirit of the law, only the written law.

The only problem with tax avoidance is that it shifts the extra tax burden onto others. If everyone paid the correct taxes then everyone and the country benefits. 

Edited 5 August, 20241 yr by Graham Butcher

31 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

The only problem with tax avoidance is that it shifts the extra tax burden onto others. If everyone paid the correct taxes then everyone and the country benefits. 

 

The correct tax is what the law says it is and I fully support adherence to the law. Those who avoid some uk tax are oft the ones that pay two or three times what the average person pays.

 

I do agree chasing those who park money offshore but if ones keeps money in the UK then use ISAs, salary sacrifice systems or choosing to have ones annual VED registration date in accordance with the UK government website and the rules behind it.

 

Ban cash if one really wants to get all the tax in one should.

 

On 05/08/2024 at 10:25, wyx087 said:

Giv-AIO was my 2nd choice. But their website recommends a canopy as minimum when putting it outside, didn't want to do that. It is also a bit thicker than Powerwall, doesn't look as sleek. Local control of Givenergy products are great though, where as Tesla requires going through their server. Just like cars, no perfect product.

 

Conversional wisdom is to put EV charging on unprotected side of home battery, reason as you said. But I plan to put it just after meter for everything, as you have sussed out. Power cuts are not frequent and draining is not big problem, and sometimes I may want to charge EV from the batteries. For example Tesla's drive on sunshine feature

https://www.notateslaapp.com/software-updates/upcoming-features/id/1392/first-look-at-tesla-s-drive-on-sunshine-feature-that-will-charge-your-tesla-with-excess-solar-energy

 

But due to Leaf V2H, functionally I will only gain EPS during rare powercuts and zero grid draw/export when Leaf isn't here. It's like an expensive toy for me 😅  Due to having V2H, ROI on battery will not be good.

Power cuts are not that rare here, the village is at the end of a long piece of wire...... They can also last a while, so protecting the battery from the car draining it is a major concern. Properly managed 13.5kWh (full battery) will run the house for 2.5 days (longer if there is some solar) but that car would empty it in under two hours. I have it wired up such that in a power cut the charger is without power but when the grid is live, it can draw from the battery and / or solar if I want it to. The long power cuts are the reason V2H is of interest, if we get another Storm Arwen 4 day power cut being able to port power back to the house in the car battery would be amazing.

Edited 6 August, 20241 yr by Luckypants
Storm Arwen, not Alwen!

2 hours ago, wyx087 said:

Giv-AIO was my 2nd choice. But their website recommends a canopy as minimum when putting it outside, didn't want to do that. It is also a bit thicker than Powerwall, doesn't look as sleek. Local control of Givenergy products are great though, where as Tesla requires going through their server. Just like cars, no perfect product.

 

Conversional wisdom is to put EV charging on unprotected side of home battery, reason as you said. But I plan to put it just after meter for everything, as you have sussed out. Power cuts are not frequent and draining is not big problem, and sometimes I may want to charge EV from the batteries. For example Tesla's drive on sunshine feature

https://www.notateslaapp.com/software-updates/upcoming-features/id/1392/first-look-at-tesla-s-drive-on-sunshine-feature-that-will-charge-your-tesla-with-excess-solar-energy

 

But due to Leaf V2H, functionally I will only gain EPS during rare powercuts and zero grid draw/export when Leaf isn't here. It's like an expensive toy for me 😅  Due to having V2H, ROI on battery will not be good.

In the case of a supply grid power failure, I would expect there to be a device installed to the outlet to prevent energy export - as is the case with all Solar energy systems (G59 relay)

4 hours ago, Ootohere said:

'It is looking like', 

is it actually correct that you can do this?

I have only ever known the renewal date to change when a car is transferred to another keeper.

Except:

If you where paying monthly by DD you could change to annual in any month. But there is no option to pay £0 a year monthly

 

 

Edited 5 August, 20241 yr by Stonekeeper

33 minutes ago, Warrior193 said:

In the case of a supply grid power failure, I would expect there to be a device installed to the outlet to prevent energy export - as is the case with all Solar energy systems (G59 relay)

Correct. Where a battery is installed that is capable of providing power to the house circuits (as opposed to a single dedicated EPS circuit wired direct to the battery inverter) during a power cut a special piece of hardware is used to isolate the house circuits from the grid. Both Givenergy and Tesla call these Gateways. A gateway sits between the meter and consumer unit in my layman's eyes. Where it is a simple solar and/or battery system that has no power cut facilities, the inverter cuts power to the wiring (and so to the grid) when it fails to detect a mains voltage / frequency.

1 hour ago, Luckypants said:

Power cuts are not that rare here, the village is at the end of a long piece of wire...... They can also last a while, so protecting the battery from the car draining it is a major concern. Properly managed 13.5kWh (full battery) will run the house for 2.5 days (longer if there is some solar) but that car would empty it in under two hours. I have it wired up such that in a power cut the charger is without power but when the grid is live, it can draw from the battery and / or solar if I want it to. The long power cuts are the reason V2H is of interest, if we get another Storm Alwen 4 day power cut being able to port power back to the house in the car battery would be amazing.

How has it been wired up to achieve that in bold? Is it just a case of having the sensing CT clamp at the very top mains and having EV charge point in the non-protected port of gateway? 

 

58 minutes ago, Warrior193 said:

In the case of a supply grid power failure, I would expect there to be a device installed to the outlet to prevent energy export - as is the case with all Solar energy systems (G59 relay)

Yes of course, together with package is Tesla Gateway 2. GivEnergy have similar called Giv-Gateway. 

 

I have now obtained G99 for 14.5 kW of combined export for my house, not sure where the number comes from. If I were to switch to SEG (metered export), and next grid DFS (Octopus saving session) I can export over 7 kWh in an half hour slot, worth up to £28. The electricity would have been bought for 58p if 0% were from solar. 

 

 

Really simple to renew tax for 12 months: 

1. go to https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-tax

2. select I have V5C 

3. Enter info (reg and V5C numbers) 

4. Check detail page will say: "Your vehicle will be taxed from 01 August 2024 Are you aware that your vehicle's current tax is not due to expire until 01 October 2024?"  (for my Leaf) 

5. Click continue. Done, new renewal date in August. 

 

Start date	01 August 2024
Duration	12 Months
Vehicle make	NISSAN
Price	£0.00

 

6. Final screen: 

 

"12 month vehicle tax for vehicle registration DS64 xxx valid from 01 August 2024      £0.00"

 

Due to pre 2017, this Leaf ZEV (as well as ultra low emission diesels) are only subject to £30 VED. So I don't care much about its renewal date. 

16 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

How has it been wired up to achieve that in bold? Is it just a case of having the sensing CT clamp at the very top mains and having EV charge point in the non-protected port of gateway? 

The wiring for the charger runs from a small consumer unit that also supplies electric to a garden room and any other loads I do not want to be protected in future. That consumer unit is wired to the unprotected side of the Giv-Gateway. Initially, when the car was charging it did not take from solar / house battery as the load was not detected. The installer came back and moved a CT clamp so the unprotected load was detected when operating. The CT clamp is within the Giv-Gateway, so I cannot tell you what was done.

2 minutes ago, Luckypants said:

The wiring for the charger runs from a small consumer unit that also supplies electric to a garden room and any other loads I do not want to be protected in future. That consumer unit is wired to the unprotected side of the Giv-Gateway. Initially, when the car was charging it did not take from solar / house battery as the load was not detected. The installer came back and moved a CT clamp so the unprotected load was detected when operating. The CT clamp is within the Giv-Gateway, so I cannot tell you what was done.

Thanks, I believe they moved the CT clamp from protected load to the meter tail. 

 

I then need to ensure the V2H CT clamp is positioned correctly myself so that one battery wouldn't drain into another. I'm sure I can work everything out myself. It'd be fun  

 

 

The thing one (in the video) has to remember is that the ZEV mandate is technology agnostic. It isn't electric vehicle mandate, it is zero-emission vehicle mandate. You can absolutely sell hydrogen fuel-cell vehicle after the full 100% ZEV mandate starts in 2035.

 

Also, agriculture vehicles are not part of the ZEV mandate. 15:43 of video.

 

On synthetic fuel, I know Germany are trying to push it as zero-emission fuel and thus ICE qualify for ZEV in the EU. I've not heard anything in the UK.

 

 

 

In my personal opinion, I've no problem traditional manufacturers going bust or consolidate. The world is changing and those who fail to change gets left behind.

something oft overlooked is the impact of Zero Emissions on Motorcycles.

https://lordslibrary.parliament.uk/mopeds-motorcycles-and-the-powered-light-vehicle-industry/

https://www.britishmotorcyclists.co.uk/nmc-decarbonisation-response/