1 hour ago, Ootohere said:

@Graham Butcher   Supposed to be, 

Should not, might not, will not.   But maybe look in the Briskoda Sections.  Rusty rear brakes, advisory 80% worn etc etc. 

 

Get with the real world,and the sh!te that are fitted by many manufacturers but the biggest one after taking over from Toyota have real crap discs on many models.

That is VW Group.

Stellantis are also pretty crap.  'Generally'. 

 

PS

Chelmsford & that general area is well known for its long winters & Cold and Wintry weather and the high used of Grit / Salt on the roads. 

I was aware of that VW has a reputation of suffering from rusty brake discs and also callipers, something that my car is supposed to be suffering from is callipers corroding, especially in the area where the bleed nipples are. I say that because my car needs to have its brake fluid changed, as it is due for it according to the service history. In fact, it was booked in to be done, but the mechanic said he was unable to undo the nipples due to them rusting in the calliper, and the allocated time caused him to decease any further attempts at undoing them. I suggested that they could perhaps spray them with penetrating fluid and leave it for a few days to soak in, and book the car in again to try again? I was told that would not work in their experience and the only thing that could do was to order up 4 new callipers just in case the nipples broke.

 

This is still pending along with a slight oil leak which is not bad but will get worse if not attended to, so I intend to get the indie garage where I get my broken front spring replaced to attempt to do these jobs in the near future as I feel that the dealer will not even bother with attempting to get the old nipples out and fit new ones, but will just replace the complete callipers at a greater cost than the indie would.

 

But my discs are showing any signs of rust anywhere the pads go, they do show signs however at the edge of the disc and the hub, which is normal as the pads do not come into contact there. But my car does get used almost daily, and Monday to Friday it is used at least twice a day taking one of my sons to his brother's as they work together and go in the same car 3 days a week, the other 2 days I have to take him all the way as his older goes to the gym early in the morning on those days. So that keeps my discs nice and shiny, so rust doesn't get a chance to build up.

I've just had my VW ID.4 in for some warranty work (the ubiquitous VAG electronic door handles failing) and got sent the visual health check video. The brake pads are still at 80% after 50K miles. This is slightly higher than the mileage I would be expecting to replace pads on my ICE cars. The second service is next week which is the usual visual checks, suspension checks, new pollen filter and replace brake fluid. It will be done at my local (EV qualified) independant garage for a lot less than VW want (£360) with an MOT. Servicing is every two years with no mileage limit.

Proof that in my experience EVs are cheaper to service.

25 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

I was aware of that VW has a reputation of suffering from rusty brake discs and also callipers, something that my car is supposed to be suffering from is callipers corroding, especially in the area where the bleed nipples are. I say that because my car needs to have its brake fluid changed, as it is due for it according to the service history. In fact, it was booked in to be done, but the mechanic said he was unable to undo the nipples due to them rusting in the calliper, and the allocated time caused him to decease any further attempts at undoing them. I suggested that they could perhaps spray them with penetrating fluid and leave it for a few days to soak in, and book the car in again to try again? I was told that would not work in their experience and the only thing that could do was to order up 4 new callipers just in case the nipples broke.

 

This is still pending along with a slight oil leak which is not bad but will get worse if not attended to, so I intend to get the indie garage where I get my broken front spring replaced to attempt to do these jobs in the near future as I feel that the dealer will not even bother with attempting to get the old nipples out and fit new ones, but will just replace the complete callipers at a greater cost than the indie would.

 

But my discs are showing any signs of rust anywhere the pads go, they do show signs however at the edge of the disc and the hub, which is normal as the pads do not come into contact there. But my car does get used almost daily, and Monday to Friday it is used at least twice a day taking one of my sons to his brother's as they work together and go in the same car 3 days a week, the other 2 days I have to take him all the way as his older goes to the gym early in the morning on those days. So that keeps my discs nice and shiny, so rust doesn't get a chance to build up.

My Citigo needed new front discs and pads earlier this year due to rust. The car is 8 years old with 21K miles, so often parked up for days. The discs were delaminating on the inside face so not picked up be me, but my mechanic had been warning they were getting poor until he called time on them this year. He said the OEM VAG discs were prone to rusting and the lack of use made it worse. He expects the new discs to last better as they are not VW. 

In fairness though, this is the first expense for mechanical issues in 8 years. The tyres were also replaced last year at around 18-19K miles due to age cracking at 7 years old.

Edited 20 February, 20251 yr by Luckypants

23 minutes ago, Luckypants said:

Proof that in my experience EVs are cheaper to service.

s/proof/personal account

@Paws4Thot  Different EV,s will have difference costs as will different ICE Vehicles.

 

There will be if done at a Main Dealer or at an Independent or even DIY.

BEV,s, pollen filters, brake fluid, maybe an Oil change with some BEV,s.  Inspections / look sees.  Wipers occasionally.

ICE Vehicles, Engine Oil & Filter, Pollen Filter and Air Filter occasionally, spark plugs if a petrol occasionally, fuel filter for a diesel occasionally. gearbox services for some, automatic or manuals. Wipers occasionally.

Inspection / look sees. 

 

Some might well miss doing some servicing or go by their own schedules. 

 

How does this Major Service compare to what your car would get?

 

 

Edited 20 February, 20251 yr by Ootohere

When there's less work to do, it stands to reason less time is required to be spent on each service and therefore it will be cheaper. It's all extremely simple. 

 

Unfortunately current reality is that some legacy manufacturers take the **** and charge similar prices. There is also a skills shortage and dealership don't have sufficient trained person, some independent garages are not interested when there's still lots of ICE jobs around. 

 

 

But just as I post my personall accounts of EV ownership, I fully trust Lucky's account on EV servicing cost is the truth about EV ownership. After all, this is first hand info. 

9 minutes ago, Ootohere said:

Some might well miss doing some servicing or go by their own schedules. 

I do / have done additional items.
 

1. Pollen filter changed annually instead of bi-annually (DIY £25)
2. Front brake calipers cleaned/lubed annually - not specified in VW service checklist. MEB platform car's brakes get a bit sticky/grabby over time, I suspect liable to seize after a few years. Done as part of MOT visit to local garage.

There may be more to the University of Southampton study after all it seems as Top Gear magazine have also now reported on it. I have not yet read what they say as I have to go out now but here is the link anyway.

 

Researchers say brake dust is more toxic than diesel car emissions | Top Gear

It seems simple enough.  'Brake dust is more toxic than diesel car emissions.'

 

* brake dust is from diesel, cars, vans and lorries, petrol cars and vans, and BEV,s be them cars or vans'. & it is being spun as though worse with BEV,s.'

Just a quick search comes up with so many results. The Top gear article did not link the source research paper, typical poor journalism.

 

This lengthy article links to many sources: https://theconversation.com/car-brake-dust-can-be-more-harmful-than-diesel-exhaust-new-study-249736

Note, there is no discussion of brake pad material that are exclusive to EV in this article. As some were claiming.

 

I believe this is the research paper in question: https://particleandfibretoxicology.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12989-024-00617-2

Note, there is no mention of brake pad material difference for powertrains in this paper.

 

 

So typical of anti-EV crowd to latch on to any tangible news and fit around their narrative......

 

Edited 20 February, 20251 yr by wyx087

My lad using the smaller of my two EVs to use for his commute to work sometimes as he has moved Depots and has to travel 50 miles further each day.

 

Using his hybrid he would gave to go to the filling station every week to fill up, hybrid, like many newer cars, only has a 40 litre tank or so..

 

Using my EV two or three times a week he can extend the buying of expensive fuel to every fortnight and the EV can be topped up every other night at home when being used and no time wasting and expensive trips to the fuel station when Using the EV.

 

Helping him save for his first property, saving the world from some considerable pollution and some money going to despots. Getting the 45p a mile extra mileage from employer, happy days.

 

Edited 22 February, 20251 yr by lol-lol

Just remember a few years ago brake pads/shoes and clutches contained asbestos.

 

Even my hybrid seems to use regenerative braking most of the time. I've been advised by a friend who has run a few Toyota hybrids(does high mileage)  to occasionally really use the brakes to clear disk surface but in doing so brake pads and disks will last for years and over 100k miles. Mine has only done 6k miles thus far so disks etc still look new.

 

However you don't really notice what it's doing re braking/ regen, it's interesting if travelling down a hill with adaptive cruise engaged - if starting to increase speed you can tell that it tries regenerative braking first (and see on engine monitor)  to steady the ship, then if needed it introduces engine braking (rev counter moves ) and if that's not enough the brakes are gently applied (I know as you can see the brake lights reflecting off things at night).

 

Presumably electric cars are similar(but no engine!) but use more regenerative (bigger generator?) before requiring the brakes.  

 

 

Edited 22 February, 20251 yr by bigjohn

17 hours ago, bigjohn said:

Even my hybrid seems to use regenerative braking most of the time. I've been advised by a friend who has run a few Toyota hybrids(does high mileage)  to occasionally really use the brakes to clear disk surface but in doing so brake pads and disks will last for years and over 100k miles. Mine has only done 6k miles thus far so disks etc still look new.

 

However you don't really notice what it's doing re braking/ regen, it's interesting if travelling down a hill with adaptive cruise engaged - if starting to increase speed you can tell that it tries regenerative braking first (and see on engine monitor)  to steady the ship, then if needed it introduces engine braking (rev counter moves ) and if that's not enough the brakes are gently applied (I know as you can see the brake lights reflecting off things at night).

 

Presumably electric cars are similar(but no engine!) but use more regenerative (bigger generator?) before requiring the brakes.  

 

Yes much regen systems in pure EVs compared to hybrids but the hybrids are coming on leaps and bounds especially as the Eu and other countries are nailing Chinese BEVs with super massive countervailing duties.

 

The new MG3 is quite a tool, 100 hp or so motor and strongish regen and now SAIC/MG have just updated the MH HS.  75 miles, possibly more on batteries plus your ICE and for not huge money...   

 Many hybrids are going to get mega whacked in the new VED scales so this need considering in the rounds.  Quite surprised how much regen by son's Clio with its tiny 1.2 kWh battery does but the small battery can only do so much to help the ICE but I have seen the Clio do over 80 mpg on some test.  CO2 is only 96 gm/km so i think it is staying at £195 a year VED which is what my EVs will go to in 2026 ie next year.

New HS with near 25 kWh battery ie nearly half the size of my Zoe !!  I reckon I might get 100 miles range out of the battery.  

 

 

22 hours ago, bigjohn said:

Presumably electric cars are similar(but no engine!) but use more regenerative (bigger generator?) before requiring the brakes. 

Correct.

 

Re-gen power is ultimately determined by battery C rating. Therefore the smaller the battery the lower regen power.

https://batteryuniversity.com/article/bu-402-what-is-c-rate

 

A 10 kWh PHEV will probably regen no more than 20 kW (2C), whereas a 60 kWh BEV could comfortably regen 60 kW (just 1C) and probably more.

 

On 20/02/2025 at 09:10, Graham Butcher said:

Actually, is it not true that unless a car, regardless of its drive train, should not have rusty discs unless it has spent a reasonable amount of time not being used? The pads are supposed to be in light contact with the disc, unlike drum brakes, disc brakes do not have any pull off springs to pull the shoes/pads clear off the drum/disc? 

My brake disks get rusty after I wash the car. It's wild how quickly rust shows up on them.

Interesting EV history of a 25 year old bev that got shelved because an oil company bought the rights to the battery technology at the time?

 

 

Aston Martin’s EV rethink reflects luxury market preferences.

A significant shift is underway at Aston Martin as the luxury carmaker pumps the brakes on its electric vehicle ambitions.

Citing concerns that fully electric cars are “too extreme a step” for many of its affluent customers, Aston Martin is delaying the launch of its first battery-powered vehicle for the second time.

https://uk.investing.com/news/stock-market-news/what-the-wealthy-want-aston-martins-ev-rethink-reflects-luxury-market-preferences-3947300

 

Not everyone is easily manipulated. You might be able to rig the market by discounting low-end products for the mass market, but it's harder to persuade rich people buying high-end products to buy things they don't want by knocking a few grand off them, or raising taxes on the products they do want.

37 minutes ago, EnterName said:

Aston Martin’s EV rethink reflects luxury market preferences.

A significant shift is underway at Aston Martin as the luxury carmaker pumps the brakes on its electric vehicle ambitions.

Citing concerns that fully electric cars are “too extreme a step” for many of its affluent customers, Aston Martin is delaying the launch of its first battery-powered vehicle for the second time.

https://uk.investing.com/news/stock-market-news/what-the-wealthy-want-aston-martins-ev-rethink-reflects-luxury-market-preferences-3947300

 

Not everyone is easily manipulated. You might be able to rig the market by discounting low-end products for the mass market, but it's harder to persuade rich people buying high-end products to buy things they don't want by knocking a few grand off them, or raising taxes on the products they do want.

Add in the ripple effect of what Trump has and is doing in the USA and the effects of that could well be felt in other places as well, who knows what the real situation is going to be, it is very much a wait and see game right now.

 

Bravo! Trump SHUTS DOWN all government EV chargers! | MGUY Australia

 

Add in that investors are putting pressure on BP to drop their green ideas and revert to being a full-blown oil and gas company, so it seems that is exactly what they doing.

 

 

Edited 27 February, 20251 yr by Graham Butcher

30 minutes ago, EnterName said:

Not everyone is easily manipulated. You might be able to rig the market by discounting low-end products for the mass market, but it's harder to persuade rich people buying high-end products to buy things they don't want by knocking a few grand off them, or raising taxes on the products they do want.

Come on now. That's a stretch even by you.

 

First, Aston Martin is in financial trouble. Blaming EV is like Stellantis blaming EV in their latest Luton plant troubles.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx29p18lz62o

 

On 28/11/2024 at 09:54, wyx087 said:

Now when there are pressure from government and far east, we get this kind of shenenigan from established players: 

2021 blame chip crisis: Vauxhall Motors: 100 Luton jobs to go due to chip crisis - BBC News

2023 blame Brexit: Fears for Vauxhall Luton van plant's future due to Brexit - BBC News

2024 blame EV's: Vauxhall's Luton plant to close with fears over 1,100 jobs as production moved - Mirror Online

Can we really trust the root cause is their latest blame victim? 

 

Aston Martin has always been about the driving experience, of course it is not keen to go fully BEV.

 

Discounting low end products? I thought you were drumming about EV are expensive playthings of the rich just last year.

 

On 13/03/2024 at 06:55, EnterName said:

EVs are an expensive novelty for large numbers of people in the UK.

On 04/10/2024 at 09:06, EnterName said:

expensively-bought EV

  

 

40 minutes ago, EnterName said:

You might be able to rig the market by discounting low-end products for the mass market, but it's harder to persuade rich people buying high-end products to buy things they don't want

Hum....You are also using the same way to talk about EV's as I did with meat. By your logic, does this mean you are the one doing the cohesion? 😱

 

 

On 05/01/2025 at 06:35, EnterName said:

Try posting "It's difficult to get Rohypnol and even more difficult to get women to consume a drinks spiked with Rohypnol." and then seeing who'll trust you to buy a round of drinks.

 

On 02/01/2025 at 10:04, wyx087 said:

But food is difficult to replace and even more difficult to make people change.

 

32 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

Come on now. That's a stretch even by you.

First, Aston Martin is in financial trouble. Blaming EV is like Stellantis blaming EV in their latest Luton plant troubles.

It sounds like you're trying suggest that Aston Martin is making strategic changes away from EVs for ideological and not business reasons. Is that what you're suggesting?

 

32 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

Discounting low end products? I thought you were drumming about EV are expensive playthings of the rich just last year.

No, clearly I wasn't talking about the rich.

I was talking about affluent white liberals virtue-signalling their superiority over the rest of us with luxury beliefs that they can comfortably afford and aren't negatively impacted by.

 

32 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

Hum....You are also using the same way to talk about EV's as I did with meat. By your logic, does this mean you are the one doing the cohesion? 😱

Huh?

What I actually said:

I do not see the point you are trying to make. If you have a point, make it clearly.

 

 

 

Edited 27 February, 20251 yr by EnterName
Corrected editing error

12 minutes ago, EnterName said:

It sounds like you're trying suggest that Aston Martin is making strategic changes away from EVs for business or ideological reasons. Is that what you're suggesting?

No. It is not a strategic change. The company is in financial trouble as the BBC article stated, As I said, BEV is being blamed as the scapegoat, just like Vauxhall.

 

Can you honestly say the 2024 Vauxhall Luton plant article blaming EV is the truth, when you've seen related articles blaming other global events over the few years earlier?

 

16 minutes ago, EnterName said:

Huh?

What I actually said:

I do not see the point you are trying to make. If you have a point, make it clearly.

Just pointing out your logic:

You've previously stated "it's difficult to do X, it's more difficult to do X+Y" means a desire to do cohesion.

Here, you've used same sentence structure: "it might be possible (doubt due to difficulty) to do X, it's more difficult to do X+Y".

Therefore, by your logic, you must be the one doing cohesion, getting people into doing X+Y.

 

Just an observation. "Changing like the wind" comes to mind. 

Really a PHEV would suit me much better than an EV for using when not at home and getting low tariff charging or being able to get cheap charging.

 

I have done 1,000 miles in a week using diesel and getting under 45 mpg so not cheap, but not really as much as if 800 miles had required Public Charging with the ridiculous prices for Rapid / Rapid +.  Or the inconvenience of Fast charging on AC in South Ayrshire and a minimum £5 charge.

14 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

No. It is not a strategic change. The company is in financial trouble as the BBC article stated, As I said, BEV is being blamed as the scapegoat, just like Vauxhall.

 

Can you honestly say the 2024 Vauxhall Luton plant article blaming EV is the truth, when you've seen related articles blaming other global events over the few years earlier?

 

Just pointing out your logic:

You've previously stated "it's difficult to do X, it's more difficult to do X+Y" means a desire to do cohesion.

Here, you've used same sentence structure: "it might be possible (doubt due to difficulty) to do X, it's more difficult to do X+Y".

Therefore, by your logic, you must be the one doing cohesion, getting people into doing X+Y.

 

Just an observation. "Changing like the wind" comes to mind. 

 

Have people been to Luton ?

Not suitable as a modern car plant.

Ellesmere Port much better. My company is the largest mover of finished cars globally, I fact our subsidiary was/is the mover of cars from these plants I believe. Modern way is pick up high volumes of made cars from ports. Car transporting or even using trains is clearly much less efficient that being really close to a port and sticking hundreds or thousands on a ship.

 

Silly or ignorant Radio Presenters on Radio Scotland & other media have stated in the past 2 days 'I do not know people who can afford EV,s they are very expensive'.

 

This is on the subject being discussed on any news / discussions about BP cutting back on Green Investments and maybe Net Zero being held back.

There are experts that point out that 2nd hand are cheap and EV & ICE prices new being much of a muchness.

 

Sadly nobody says to the presenters, not always female ones, 'Do you really not know people who can afford EV,s?' 

 

 

Governments / Politicians are the issue.

They say one thing and not even do another, they do nothing of any relevance to the things said.

Arse & Elbow.

They as in European Politicians came to the conclusion that China could stop the support that European Manufacturers and others countries manufacturers could get in the EU or UK.

Too long have they been giving breaks and hand outs to companies that could make profits if they built and sold more efficient and affordable cars / vehicles but instead built Bigger, Heavier and were allowed cheating of Real World Emissions. 

Edited 27 February, 20251 yr by Ootohere