I do not think anyone is falling into the trap of mixing up cars that do not get petrol or diesel or LPG put into a tank with ones that require electricity into the battery cells.

So many recalls go on with ICE and BEV,s & Electrified vehicles.

Across so many manufacturers. Many never being checked.

Edited 12 July, 202512 Jul by Ootohere

2 minutes ago, Ootohere said:

I do not think anyone is falling into the trap of mixing up cars that do not get petrol or diesel or LPG put into a tank with ones that require electricity into the battery cells.

So many recalls go on with ICE and BEV,s & Electrified vehicles.

Across so many manufacturers. Many never being checked.

I was not suggesting that, but some people claim BEVs are less complicated and @lol-lol was saying that hybrids are more complicated, which is true as he said.

Hybrids & PHEV,s are very complicated and might be the worst of both worlds.

VW Group can not even sort out pure ICE Vehicles and batteries let alone electrified ones before signing them and taking money for them.

As for BEV,s and the very important part for many which is charging & various chargers, they really are messing up.

Porsche surely must have this one all sorted these out before they sell them to customers.

Arrive home, at work, at public chargers or anyplace and plug in and charging starts.

Tap a card or whatever and no Phone Apps, or Mobile Reception / Wi-Fi required.

Knew that Hammond was not going to do the run after the Rimac crash he had, can't say I blame him either.

Maybe EV sales will spike upwards even faster as refineries close....

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2025/07/12/petrol-stations-run-dry-oil-refinery-collapse/https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2025/07/12/petrol-stations-run-dry-oil-refinery-collapse

Edited 12 July, 202512 Jul by lol-lol

Maybe as done now the base fuels will still arrive by ship to the various sea ports and depots. Just more than before and at those ones owned by Royal Dutch Shell and Greenery. As it is Grangemouth as an Oil Refinery Closed but as a Fuel Depot it is still operating and fuel is being delivered from there even though they are no longer operating a Cracking Plant. @lol-lol not read that article yet but how much of the Road and Transport fuels in the UK was from refining in the UK?

Tankers of Fuel from around the world not just from refineries in Europe & not just oil are held at sea ready

for delivery into UK depots, as 'the price is right'. Come on in, like the tide.

3 years ago, over capacity production for the Home Market. So exporting surpluses.

But if there is to be Energy Security in the UK then refining and the production of fuels should be a priority for the Government.

Edited 13 July, 202513 Jul by Ootohere

Real world from a member. Charging an EV.

The term FAST is usually, 7 kw chargers, (& 11 kW.)

so really SLOW, (11 AC not quite so SLOW but not FAST.

RAPID is 50 kW chargers so FAST not that fast,

then you have ULTRA FAST, or ULTRA RAPID. Something that Car Salespeople seldom can explain.

That is just how the terms were and evolved.

So if you can only public charge & are paying 60 pence a kWh or more so 10 kWh costs £6.00 to go 36-40 miles just get a Petrol or Diesel if a private owner paying for your fuel.

Edinburgh is now getting better charging provision but charging Ultra Rapid can be expensive, as can just RAPID charging at 50 kW because the Council for the City made it so.

Many passengers can not be bothered with all the crap and messing about even though it looks simple and can be. They just want to get where they are going..

Edited 13 July, 202513 Jul by Ootohere

Quentin Wilson was on the BBC talking EV,s and cheapness, and said as usual 2 pence a mile with an EV.

Yes with a 7 pence a kWh charge that is. The Social Divide.

Heidi Alexander MP is coming on 'BBC1 Sunday with Laura Kuensberg.

Lets see / hear what figures she comes away with and maybe if she is driven around in an EV and has one as a family car.

.......................

13 years ago he was on about 100 miles for £1. Well now that is £2 for 100, for those not paying 60 pence or more a kWh, or even 30 pence.

http://bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-19661199

The 'Claim' is correct for those that 'could or can charge' for Much Cheapness.

.............

'Across the country she said'. Maybe that is England then.

She has not an EV, but never said if the Government Car she is driven in is an EV.

Later this week for the announcement.

Edited 13 July, 202513 Jul by Ootohere

26 minutes ago, Ootohere said:

Quentin Wilson was on the BBC talking EV,s and cheapness, and said as usual 2 pence a mile with an EV.

Yes with a 7 pence a kWh charge that is. The Social Divide.

Heidi Alexander MP is coming on 'BBC1 Sunday with Laura Kuensberg.

Lets see / hear what figures she comes away with and maybe if she is driven around in an EV and has one as a family car.

.......................

13 years ago he was on about 100 miles for £1. Well now that is £2 for 100, for those not paying 60 pence or more a kWh, or even 30 pence.

http://bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-19661199

The 'Claim' is correct for those that 'could or can charge' for Much Cheapness.

And we are seeing more homes with two walbox chargers and one can even charge a third EV via a 13A plug.

A charger could add 35 kwh in 5 hours which happens to be the size of the minis smaller battery size, looking forward to picking it up tomorrow.

If the Zoe is replaced by a 40 kwh Renault 5, or Spring, they also can be charged from almost empty to full. Scenic can get over half a charge in the 5 hours.

Still reeling as to why two gentlemen from National Grid lowered my mains fuse from 100A to 80A, apparently a policy now for houses.

Still looking for a mobile house battery that could charge at up to 6 kwh or so but also power the house during the day. Saving nearly 20p per kwh. Ultimately would like to stop using gas completely but with gas at 5.71 p per kwh it is hard to argue with that.

Any gas powered cars out there ? Dacia still do dual fuel lng and petrol. We do it for our 200,000 ton, 23,000 TEU LNG ships so must be something in it.

Edited 13 July, 202513 Jul by lol-lol

51 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

And we are seeing more homes with two walbox chargers and one can even charge a third EV via a 13A plug.

And that in itself just reinforces @Ootohere point about the social divide. Many are unable to even manage to charge one EV let alone 2 or 3 even.

54 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

Still reeling as to why two gentlemen from National Grid lowered my mains fuse from 100A to 80A, apparently a policy now for houses.

That once again, at least to me, just reinforces the point that the national grid is already struggling to meet the power demands for all increased public chargers being installed, especially for all the really high power super quick chargers that claim it is possible to stuff a couple of hundred miles of range into your car in around 10 mins in an attempt to try and rival the speed of which you can add around 400 miles plus to an ICE car in 5 minutes or less.

Those really greedy bar stewards attempting to take cheap lecky in bulk to charge their growing collection of EVs, as well as topping up home battery storage systems for days when the sun don't shine much, will end up possibly blowing the supply 80A fuse and then will have to pay for someone to come out and replace their main fuse again in the meantime they may have no power until they can get the main fuse replaced again, at an exorbitant price.

£63 million additional spending by the Government.

Maybe £1.20 for very person in England for the 'Across the Country'.

The Royal Family cost around £510 million.

The Royal Grant £86 million. £1.29 pence for every person in the UK.

Everything is just how much you wish to spend.

A new Fighter Jet is about the cost the Royal Grant is.

A serious question for these that maybe know about Electrics, equipment components.

Wall Boxes / Home or workplace chargers are not cheap, even if installed free, someone pays.

?

Why would a Wall Box 7kW EV charger last only 7 years or less?

Is it to do with water / corrosion, or which parts fail?

Pricing gone mad?

1 hour ago, Graham Butcher said:

And that in itself just reinforces @Ootohere point about the social divide. Many are unable to even manage to charge one EV let alone 2 or 3 even.

That once again, at least to me, just reinforces the point that the national grid is already struggling to meet the power demands for all increased public chargers being installed, especially for all the really high power super quick chargers that claim it is possible to stuff a couple of hundred miles of range into your car in around 10 mins in an attempt to try and rival the speed of which you can add around 400 miles plus to an ICE car in 5 minutes or less.

Those really greedy bar stewards attempting to take cheap lecky in bulk to charge their growing collection of EVs, as well as topping up home battery storage systems for days when the sun don't shine much, will end up possibly blowing the supply 80A fuse and then will have to pay for someone to come out and replace their main fuse again in the meantime they may have no power until they can get the main fuse replaced again, at an exorbitant price.

You don't seem to understand basic economics or how the UK power generation works.

Whether it's Centrica, the German Eon company or our the homegrown Octopus energy they can sell energy at 6 or 7 p per kwh in the early hours of the morning and they still making a profit. Us EV user, and home battery adopters are simply buying lecky when it's cheaper to buy.

To you understand Happy Hours in pubs and similar events ?

The UK power generation network has a certain about of nuclear base load, this will be further enhanced when Hinkley Point C and new Sizewell come on line as well as wind turbines providing supply thru the night.

There has been almost a billion pounds list with wind turbines being switched off due to excess supply in the network. Best ti get 7 or 8p a kwh off customers with car or home batteries rather than have to that energy wasted. So much neteirk energy at sometimes Octopus give us free energy for some hours.

Supply, Demand and economics not charity or privilege just smart people doing smart things.

They could be selling to the Providers of Public charging than, and even with the 20% VAT there that would be a very very reasonable cost to run an EV.

That is not how it is working though.

I just heard from another EXPERT, Professional, 82,000 Public Chargers, that is across the UK then.

I also heard that the EV Charger signs are for England.

About time that is Scotland on Trunk Routes and not there were signs showing distance or guidance to EV hubs.

Not all EV,s are that good at directing drivers to them. Just as Sat nav and apps might get you near, but still the Chargers are hidden away someplace.

PS

Happy Hours in Pubs is really nothing to use as a comparison.

What has someone buying alcohol at a Supermarket or Off licence and taking it home and drinking it in their own 'An Englishman's Home is their Castle'. Very different from the sticky carpet of some 'eatery and drinking place'. Well some might have sticky carpets or saw dust on the floor. Even at home.

.................

Let us know when the bottom 2/3 of the UK is self sufficient in Electricity and not bringing it in from the North or South.

Edited 13 July, 202513 Jul by Ootohere

2 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

That once again, at least to me, just reinforces the point that the national grid is already struggling to meet the power demands for all increased public chargers being installed,

The change to 80 amp fuses in domestic houses instead of 100amp was due to temperature. It was originally assumed that most of the load would be in winter (electric heaters etc). The supply cables (called tails) are often rated based on temperature of 20c.

Now people are using more power in summer, it was standardised to prevent hot wires, because cables were not really rated for 100amp continuous in hot weather.

The National grid struggles in parts of the country because most of the high power grid was built to shift electricity from coal fired power stations in north midlands to big industry sites and cities. It simply hasn't caught up with shifting electricity from remote wind farms and solar arrays to motorway service area car parks in fairly rural areas.

45 minutes ago, Ootohere said:

They could be selling to the Providers of Public charging than, and even with the 20% VAT there that would be a very very reasonable cost to run an EV.

That is not how it is working though.

I just heard from another EXPERT, Professional, 82,000 Public Chargers, that is across the UK then.

I also heard that the EV Charger signs are for England.

About time that is Scotland on Trunk Routes and not there were signs showing distance or guidance to EV hubs.

Not all EV,s are that good at directing drivers to them. Just as Sat nav and apps might get you near, but still the Chargers are hidden away someplace.

PS

Happy Hours in Pubs is really nothing to use as a comparison.

What has someone buying alcohol at a Supermarket or Off licence and taking it home and drinking it in their own 'An Englishman's Home is their Castle'. Very different from the sticky carpet of some 'eatery and drinking place'. Well some might have sticky carpets or saw dust on the floor. Even at home.

.................

Let us know when the bottom 2/3 of the UK is self sufficient in Electricity and not bringing it in from the North or South.

Totally agree with the VAT being a high 20% on public charging but only 5% is unfair.

Sunak was challenged on this about 18 months ago in parliament and totally avoided the question. Labour gave not done anything about it but what is the way forward ?

The current government have to deal with the Blood scandal, the PO scandal payouts. The Cons gave billions away in NI cuts in 2024 rather than in other directions.

If I was me I would restore the diesel and petrol excise duty to 58p per litre from 53p per litre and reconnect to inflation and use that to fund the dropping of public charger VAT to 5%.

Not popular with ICE vehicle operators but might spur then to accelerate the transition to EVs with vans and trucks as well as cars and bikes.

6 hours ago, Ootohere said:

Real world from a member. Charging an EV.

The term FAST is usually, 7 kw chargers, (& 11 kW.)

so really SLOW, (11 AC not quite so SLOW but not FAST.

RAPID is 50 kW chargers so FAST not that fast,

then you have ULTRA FAST, or ULTRA RAPID. Something that Car Salespeople seldom can explain.

That is just how the terms were and evolved.

So if you can only public charge & are paying 60 pence a kWh or more so 10 kWh costs £6.00 to go 36-40 miles just get a Petrol or Diesel if a private owner paying for your fuel.

Edinburgh is now getting better charging provision but charging Ultra Rapid can be expensive, as can just RAPID charging at 50 kW because the Council for the City made it so.

Many passengers can not be bothered with all the crap and messing about even though it looks simple and can be. They just want to get where they are going..

That all seemed to a bit of a faff, there are better ways of spending time.

We will see if there are to be grants again. Not just or including 'Business Users', who do well already.

What means tested Income level, like to those earning or with incomes under £35,000 Like the point that those 66 and over in England are not getting Winter Fuel Payments.

Surely Grants should be on Efficient EV,s, & Ones of certain Weight, Length, Width etc, & not encouraging the buying of Luxury / Premium vehicles that Manufacturers are keen to get punted out when really they should maybe be having restriction to acceleration & top speeds to comply with UK traffic laws.

(Cross the English Channel or Irish Sea and they can then get FULL Enabled performance.)

Lab government go a different way to Con party in funding roll out of chargers and cars (return of subsidies ?).

Emphasis on local rather than Trunk road for chargers as we did years ago when we owned Source London).....

https://www.aol.co.uk/news/government-announces-63m-funding-ev-121238871.html

The transport secretary has promised to make it “easier and cheaper” to buy electric cars, as the government announces £63m worth of funding to help build charging infrastructure. Heidi Alexander said on Sunday she wanted to make it more affordable to switch to electric vehicles as she announced new money for councils and other bodies to spend on facilities to charge cars. She announced £63m worth of funding for EV charging, with officials also finalising plans for a £700m package of subsidies to bring down the cost of buying a new electric car.......The Conservative and Liberal Democrat coalition government introduced the first purchase subsidies for EVs in 2011, when sales and the number of models on offer were tiny. However, the Conservatives ended the subsidies in 2022 amid concerns that the policy was expensive and mainly benefited wealthier households, in a move that was heavily criticised by carmakers.

Edited 14 July, 202514 Jul by lol-lol

Let's see just how this goes down when announced and not some leaking pre the announcement. Is it Parliament that is supposed to be told first which is why she only mentioned the £63 million, for this country. England that will be. Tax increases possibly later on in the year. Surely not taxing people on money earned and then handing out money to assist in buying new cars. Or could it be Used EV,s that grants are for to help get flogged off all these ex lease / fleet vehicles that were cheep to business users but many private buyers or those without charging weed not buying.

Quite a Press Release.

There is UK, Britain, British Drivers, England and NHS England even Across the UK & Across the Country.

New £63 million boost for Britain's electric vehicle revolution - GOV.UK.mhtml

Edited 14 July, 202514 Jul by Ootohere

1 hour ago, Ootohere said:

Let's see just how this goes down when announced and not some leaking pre the announcement. Is it Parliament that is supposed to be told first which is why she only mentioned the £63 million, for this country. England that will be. Tax increases possibly later on in the year. Surely not taxing people on money earned and then handing out money to assist in buying new cars. Or could it be Used EV,s that grants are for to help get flogged off all these ex lease / fleet vehicles that were cheep to business users but many private buyers or those without charging weed not buying.

Quite a Press Release.

There is UK, Britain, British Drivers, England and NHS England even Across the UK & Across the Country.

New £63 million boost for Britain's electric vehicle revolution - GOV.UK.mhtml

Be interesting to see which way the government goes. I think EVs can compete against ICE cars already without subsidies though it is also clear the UK car sellers are offering deals with finance ie 0% compared to ICE cars, appalling deals like 7.9% or so in that way manufactures are encouraging EV sales and punishing ICE buying. Presumably so they hit their 28% EV sales and don't get whacked with penalties.

EVs have just become some much cheaper for a similar spec car which makes returning cars after PCP etc a strange event. Would love to keep my Zoe ZE50 Riviera but the balloon payment is about £13k. The car is probably worth £9k at best. Car was £34K RRP when new. Had about £10k of subsidies Government, Renault and Dealer. Monthly payment well under £300 a month, very cheap to run, energy, service, tyres. But will Renault Finance, who call themselves Mobilize now, sell me the car for £9k ? Very doubtful. Will give them a ring but dealer does not want to get involved only wants me to choose one of the 4 options.

So my Zoe, like thousands of other Zoes goes back in to the massive pool of ZE50 Zoes going back to Renault Finance. They will be lucky to get £8k from a dealer I reckon. The system is annoying. Maybe UK Gov, for England and Wales, might do a £1K pay in to 2,3,4 year old EVs but in general I think the dealers will just add it to their margin so UK Gove needs to be smart about this and not end up wasting scant public funds.

5 hours ago, lol-lol said:

finalising plans for a £700m package of subsidies to bring down the cost of buying a new electric car

sigh

The issue isn't price of EV. Stop/start government incentives to "help" with new EV purchasing (like ~2015) will only bring uncertainty and higher depreciation, actually making EV cost more to own. It's simply stupid and counter intuitive.

The issue is the social divide between those who can charge at home and those who cannot.
That gives the perception that EV are expensive to own (buy and use) due to higher public charging cost and higher list price often quoted by anti-EV narratives.

So the other issue is the huge amount of misinformation out there.

Funding for cross pavement charging solves the problem of getting power to the kerbside but fails to tackle the even more difficult issue of there not being any "right" to park in front of your own house - so if the nearest place you can park to your own house is out of range of the charging cable (which is not unlikely) then charging an EV at home when you don't have a drive will still be impossible.

This weekend I've been staying with a friend and never once been able to park outside their house, one day the nearest I could get was 100 metres down the road.