1 hour ago, Paws4Thot said:

@Graham Butcher @lol-lol Short of dropping it far enough to break one of the 3 moving parts, what even can go wrong with this ?

Very little as the servicing of EVs show.

Battery degradation is one concern but probably much less than feared. Some early LEAFs without any active cooling but garages and find ways to double and bear triple range as that is how much energy density has improved.

Traction motor replacements seem very rare.

Car makers Renault now gave modular packs 24 in my Scenic, that can be identified and replaced in case of the extremely rare failure and car gas ducts to allow fire fighters to flood this compartment with foam in a case of those also rare fires ie being parked bear to a self combusting ICE car.

Believe what you want to, but I hope that one day when it really sinks in just how such a small thing can ruin your plans and dreams that you'll have the manners to admit I was right, oh and for the record, it DOES not only apply to EVs but all modern cars that rely an gadgetry to make them run and drive. Including my new Kodiaq but I'm aware of this and not burying my head in the sand.

Dish washers and TVs etc etc all fall foul of this, try getting control parts for out of production appliances. Hoses and such parts are for the large part replaceable as people can often make work around, including most of us here, think about it.

Surely an issue for those buying new or used EV,s or electrified vehicles as keepers, and those leasing / renting new and handing back could really not care less about 5-15 years on.

There are those that have owned EV,s now for a few years and even still have them and have bought another or 2.

It is really unreal how people bother about what others have and they are not going to be having to drive or buy if they do not want to.

Like older drivers, or drivers that are not buying new cars anytime in the next decade.

35 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Believe what you want to, but I hope that one day when it really sinks in just how such a small thing can ruin your plans and dreams that you'll have the manners to admit I was right

Said like a true EV denier.

35 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

oh and for the record, it DOES not only apply to EVs but all modern cars that rely an gadgetry to make them run and drive.

Then what does this have anything to do with truth about EV's?

9 minutes ago, Ootohere said:

It is really unreal how people bother about what others have and they are not going to be having to drive or buy if they do not want to.

Exactly, all pure speculation with zero knowledge.

(case in point, BMS per bank!?)

@Ootohere correct, but more is being made from my statement then what should be. Do you not agree then that classic cars such as those making the London to Brighton runs annually 50 or 60 years from now will not be featuring many of the current ICE and more than likely no EVs,? The reason for that is more than likely to be down to electronic failures rather than mechanical drive trains.

Having owned an EV and then moved back to an ICE I’ve ended up with an interesting perspective on this whole debate.

I had issues with a couple of scenarios where I couldn’t find a working fast charger or had to wait ages, when I didn’t have the time, to get on one. The repair infrastructure - at least for Skoda - clearly wasn’t there, my car needed battery cell replacement under recall but the dealer couldn’t do it and would need to send it to some VW ev centre. 

Then the electricity prices went up but bizarrely at the time the value of my car had gone up so I sold it for more than I’d paid for it. Easily the best car I’ve ever had as it did nearly 30k miles and cost absolutely zero in maintenance costs.

There’s no doubt that since then the charging infrastructure has improved - I see them all over the country.

People I know keep telling me how crap EVs are and quote all the stuff about battery fires, degradation, children being forced down mines to get cobalt etc etc.

I now find myself constantly disagreeing with these people, some of whom are good friends but have swallowed the whole anti ev dialogue.

I’m at the point now where I actually want to get another ev just to annoy the anti ev people.

2 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

Dish washers and TVs etc etc all fall foul of this, try getting control parts for out of production appliances.

Plus the costs for in-production white goods are scary too - recently my Bosch tumble dryer refused to work showing an error code that required a new control board. Cost? - £350!!!

As a retired electronics engineer I asked the repair technician to leave the replaced control board with me so I could investigate. The failed component? - a £0.50 relay...

4 hours ago, Ootohere said:

Somebody must know the scrappage numbers of EV,s from failures other than accidental damage ones.

Drivetrain / component failures, or maybe they are just assuming that there are however many.

Most people if we are talking a majority can not fix an ICE vehicle regardless of the age / generation on them.

This is irrelevant very few electronic things break so early in their life, it is a complete red herring being chucked into the discussion because you all seem to be under the impression that I'm bashing EVs here when I'm not. I'm bashing all the tech that goes into all modern cars regardless of their propulsion system. But it is still a fact however that all EVs do is to swap mechanical complexity for more electronic and software complexity.

For instance, there are not 7100+ parts of an ICE engine, but there that number of battery cells in a Telsa model S battery pack, plus all the other parts required to keep it at the right temperature, balance the cell voltages etc which is still only technically the same item in essance as a fuel tank, is it not?

Edited 27 July, 202527 Jul by Graham Butcher

The manufacturers are listening are they not.

Stopping building the factories, stopping building components and building EV.s. Giving up on them.

They are going back to building diesel cars because arm chair experts think they should.

The government agree with this obviously.

Drill baby drill!

@classic I do think the points mentioned about children mining the rare minerals etc is actually correct, but let's get one thing abundantly clear, I'm not anti EV but anti the forced switching towards EV adoption. I have zero issue with anyone freely electing to have whatever propulsion system they wish. It is or was a free country. What I oppose is the big push towards EVs with increasing pressure on makers and dealers to meet increased percentage sales year on year when it is still very much an unproven technology and we have masses yet to learn about so much to do with all aspects of them before we can confidentally say that they pose no more danger than current ICE vehicles do.

22 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

But it is still a fact however that all EVs do is to swap mechanical complexity for more electronic and software complexity.

2 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

it is still very much an unproven technology

Are smart phones or laptops unproven technology?

Are high power motors unproven technology?

EV are just those two added together. There's absolutely nothing special and nothing new about EV's.

@Graham Butcher I agree about all the tech on modern cars being a nightmare -modules, radars, sensors and cameras etc whether EV or ICE.

Unfortunately I believe one of the main uses for cobalt other than in batteries is in refining oil and producing hardened drills for oil rigs….

I think as the government are pushing manufacturers to build ev vehicles they should be supporting the car repair industry with incentives to train technicians and get equipment to make it less risky for people to own used EVs as they become more available.

Edit : Just to add Ive spent just over £1000 on maintenance for my Superb over the last 40k miles - 4 x oil & filters, spark plugs, rear discs and pads account for 60% of that which an equivalent EV wouldn’t have needed (and I saved £250 over dealer price by doing the discs and pads myself).

Edited 27 July, 202527 Jul by classic

@classic you'll get no arguments from me on any of what you have said, apart from what you spent on regular maintenance of your Superb, could just as well also be spent on an EV, as not everyone likes all the regenerative braking that is available on EV's or indeed the one pedal system that some also offer, so in that case the pads and discs could well be replaced on an EV just the same.

I to, have spent similar amount on my Superb, but no plugs, oil filters, pads or discs, but on replacing worn out shock absorber, worn front suspension bushes and track rod ends, broken coil spring and an alternator, all of which there are equivalent parts on an EV are there not, so those parts could also fail just as on an ICE, and I'm willing to bet some may well be even more expensive to replace.

1 hour ago, Ootohere said:

The manufacturers are listening are they not.

Stopping building the factories, stopping building components and building EV.s. Giving up on them.

They are going back to building diesel cars because arm chair experts think they should.

The government agree with this obviously.

Drill baby drill!

Ed Miliband is one of the arm chair experts and he is pushing the net zero and EV agenda the most.

Just as a by, my sister in law has recently swapped her 10 year old Toyota Yaris for 2 year old Yaris Cross (hybrid) and just to illustrate how the complexity plays a major part in modern cars, the car defaults to electric mode only switching to ICE when the battery can no longer support movement. She has friends who have similar cars and the dealer also told her that it is essential to make sure that the traction battery is kept topped up and the only way this can be can be done is to drive it until the petrol engine kicks in and then to drive it for at least 25 minutes, once a week.

She and and my wife are going away on holiday to Madeira in September for 2 weeks and she has arranged for brother in law to drive it while they are away and I shall be driving them to Gatwick in my diesel and picking them up again as she is not willing to risk coming back to a car that is not usable and having to call out someone to charge the battery sufficient to enable the petrol engine to start. Traction battery getting too low in SOC prevents petrol engine from working. Her friends have also confirmed this to be true as they have faced the same issues after 2 weeks holiday.

Edited 27 July, 202527 Jul by Graham Butcher

There are many thousand around the UK with Toyota Yaris Hybrids and ones 10 years old that have no issues leaving then for weeks undriven. They were one of the first cars of the type, the most common on the roads. Have they really started producing ones that are not as good as they were back in 2010-2015? PS. Dealers or car salespeople really do talk loads of guff. Is there really an issue regarding the car being even parked for a month?

Edited 28 July, 202528 Jul by Ootohere

I just read the Toyota advice on putting the car in Ready Mode.. I wonder if the Toyota Dealers in the UK need big signs in showrooms saying 'These vehicles might not suit ORDINARY people who live ordinary lives.. they can be exactly like a Skoda Fabis that are not suitable to park in long stay car parks if you take holidays for a couple of weeks.

Edited 28 July, 202528 Jul by Ootohere

17 minutes ago, Ootohere said:

There are many thousand around the UK with Toyota Yaris Hybrids and ones 10 years old that have no issues leaving then for weeks undriven. They were one of the first cars of the type, the most common on the roads. Have they really started producing ones that are not as good as they were back in 2010-2015? PS. Dealers or car salespeople really do talk loads of guff. Is there really an issue regarding the car being even parked for a month?

Ever thought that maybe it might also depend on the actual SOC at the time of parking the car up for that time. I'm purely going on what my SIL told me and I have not read the manual etc. So when she tells that it defaults to electric mode first, she is unable to select petrol mode, it selects itself when the SOC apparently is no longer sufficient so then recharges from the engine.

So if that is correct, and the car has not driven enough to increase the SOC to last 2 weeks to allow the car to drive off in electric mode, then I would say it sounds to be perfectly feasible. I would need to read the manual to confirm.

Yes i think about much. Watch what neighbours have as cars. And have driven quite a few and consider buying various. Especially when cheap like 5 year old Yaris always have been..

Ordinary people should read owners manuals. Especially if not that mechanically minded. Take car sales peoples guff with a pinch of salt.

But with career car sales people look what their family have or buy with their own money. What they drive.. if only everything like the car in front was as reliable as a Toyota. The biggest car manufacturer in the world. Them VW introduced defeat devices. Then Toyota was the bigger again in 2016.. terrible air bags though. But at least they do recalls and try to get cars in for them..

Edited 28 July, 202528 Jul by Ootohere

10 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

replacing worn out shock absorber, worn front suspension bushes and track rod ends, broken coil spring and an alternator, all of which there are equivalent parts on an EV are there not

Suspension components, yes.

Alternator, no. EV use DC-DC converter, which don't have moving parts, they are standard (in every industry, every electronic devices) and have been proven to be very reliable. They should last life of vehicle without need servicing, just like the main EV battery.

10 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

the dealer also told her that it is essential to make sure that the traction battery is kept topped up and the only way this can be can be done is to drive it until the petrol engine kicks in and then to drive it for at least 25 minutes, once a week.

Dealer talking rubbish, not the first time. Got to remember they are sales people, they are just regurgitating whatever they were told without understanding of how the system works. So you are getting 3rd hand chinese whispers level of info if you are lucky.

The truth for hybrids is that the batteries have been limited to have much smaller usable capacity because engineers would have a requirement that regular people will park the car for prolonged period at any time. That's because unlike BEV, users don't have easy direct control of HV battery SoC.

So the car can be left at any state without worry. 2 weeks is very short time to worry about leaving any vehicle.

18 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

@classic you'll get no arguments from me on any of what you have said, apart from what you spent on regular maintenance of your Superb, could just as well also be spent on an EV, as not everyone likes all the regenerative braking that is available on EV's or indeed the one pedal system that some also offer, so in that case the pads and discs could well be replaced on an EV just the same.

I to, have spent similar amount on my Superb, but no plugs, oil filters, pads or discs, but on replacing worn out shock absorber, worn front suspension bushes and track rod ends, broken coil spring and an alternator, all of which there are equivalent parts on an EV are there not, so those parts could also fail just as on an ICE, and I'm willing to bet some may well be even more expensive to replace.

Discs and pads hardly ever replaced on EVs as regen system does most the braking most the time. Been some EVs where the on regen part of the braking system has seized up thru lack of use so it needs a bit of TLC because it is used so little by many EV drivers who regen 99% of the time. Even more miles and smiles at next to no cost. One daughter did find the use of regen a bit nauseating, don't understand it myself but she was/is susceptible to motion sickness ie sea etc.

One truth about EVs seems to be the lower insurance premiums for roughly equivalent power outputs.

My Scenic with 170 hp was cheaper than the hybrid Arkana with only 140 hp and the Mini insurance, 181 hp, was about half the Clio, 145 hp, hybrid insurance. Both EVs much higher RRPs but for some reason much lower insurance costs. Not sure why but a pleasant surprise.

One area EVs do seem to cost a bit more is tyres. The bit more weight and the instant torque and joy of beating ICE cars off the lights does tend to lead to slightly higher tyre wear it seems.

Edited 28 July, 202528 Jul by lol-lol

1 hour ago, Ootohere said:

Ordinary people should read owners manuals. Especially if not that mechanically minded. Take car sales peoples huff with a pinch of salt. But with career sales peoples look what there family have or buy with their own money. What they drive.. if only everything like the car in front was as reliable as a Toyota. The biggest car manufacturer in the world. Them VW introduced defeat devices. Then Toyota was the bigger again in 2016.. terrible air bags though. But at least they do recalls and try to get cars in for them..

Personally, I really couldn't give a flying f**k what my neighbours, family or friends etc are driving, I'm only interested what I want to drive and that for me always starts with "can I sit here comfortably for hours at a time on long trips", next comes, is it suitable for my own immediate family needs and what is it like to drive. Its external looks are for others to put up with, I can't see them from the drivers seat, neither do I spent much time actually looking at the car from outside it.

Even when I had company cars and I where could have any car within a set budget, rather than from a particular model, I have always gone for the car that I would personally buy with my own money that ticked all the above boxes, hence why I for the last 5 company cars, I always went for the Skoda while all my colleagues went for Audis, BMW, Mercedes Benz, Volvo, Honda and Alfa Romeo, all of which cost more and they gave the reasons for their choices as looking good on their drives. In other words they were being greedy with someone else's money and shallow.

Don't you remember when VW used to say similar about their cars,"If only everything was as reliable as a Volkswagen", or "Jetta, tough as boots"

Edited 28 July, 202528 Jul by Graham Butcher

I have a photographic memory, maybe autistic, bi-polar, adha or just interested in cars.

The reason i bother looking at what others drive locally is.

You see what cars might sit for weeks or months, no rusty discs, no flat batteries, no cars needing recovered or vice versa.

But then i have been into cars since a child, trained as a motor engineer, worked as a car sprayer and bought and sold cars.

I tend to ignore the crap that comes from 'Ordinary people' who often just drive the things.

Some of the cars with the worst reputation can be true peaches. Best of all often cheap because people without a clue dis them. Or motoring journalists do. Jerky Automatics etc.

Or best car in the world, yet the public hardly buy any.

In the UK that is. Possibly the ones with more bling than practicality. Or amazing handling and performance, tail out GT86 / BRZ, skinnier tyres and poor rear wheel drive grip.

Or FWD cars with lots of Torque Steer. Losing grip and getting it back with a ELD / Torque vectoring maybe.

Sh!te in the wet or cold and as far a UK 60 MPH speed limits, feel sporty, actually pretty damn poor engineering.

Skoda Yeti a design classic loved by motoring journalists and some owners, bought by few, just like the Roomster. Seldom people put their money where their mouthing off goes.

Edited 28 July, 202528 Jul by Ootohere

@lol-lol Sure, but once again, you did not read what I wrote, I agreed about the regenerative braking but I also said not everybody liked it or one pedal driving, thus indicating that some turned it either down or off, and then drove as per conventional ICE car, which they were used to driving, and then, once again pads and discs could also be changed.

Once again you demonstrated that you think everything is anti-EV, with out fully understanding what others are saying.

Also you said "Been some EVs where the on regen part of the braking system has seized up thru lack of use so it needs a bit of TLC because it is used so little by many EV drivers who regen 99% of the time." Not a very safe situation to be in is it?

I'm not so sure about the EV insurance being less expensive these days, insurers have got wise to the fact that many EVs have to be written off after some accidents for fear of the battery being damaged and leaving them with a ticking time bomb so many will not take that chance and simply write the car off and then premiums start to rise in order to ensure that they are are operating at a loss.

This a situation that you personally may not be aware of as an existing EV owner with no such claims made, but I'm sure that there are plenty of other new owners discovering that when they look for quotes on a potential change from ICE to EV as result of the pressure being brought to bear on them, is a really nasty unexpected surprise that wipes away much of the smile from enjoying cheap home charging.

To illustrate the above insurance hike in EVs over ICE I have done a test, using money supermarket on Auto Trader site, same driver details in both cases, therefore the same insurers quoted, only car has changed, 2020 Hyndai Kona Premium SE, both cars valued at £14,000

ICE version 6,000 miles £480 full Comp (petrol)

BEV version 20,000 miles £730 full Comp. (full electric)

So that is a 52% hike in the premium for the full electric car over the more likely to self combust according to some ICE car and the BEV also has an 233% increase in the mileage at the commencement of the proposed policy, not really looking that rosy is it?