1 hour ago, wyx087 said:

It's amazing you have the ability to take a straight forward story and twist it into your version just so it can fit into your unchanging closed minded narrative.

Closed minded narrative is precisely what you are exhibiting when you try and rubbish any viewpoint that does not just blindly follow the electric and net zero narrative that you seem to have swallowed hook line and sinker, without even considering the possible negatives, possibly blinded by the much cheapness on offer was the draw

I did say did I not, "what if", I expect next you'll be claiming that it was public knowledge that there was a nuclear bomb being developed and that they would be dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. There are many things that are secret in this world, some are for the right reasons, and some not so.

I have made my position on electric vehicles, clear, not anti them, just anti the current forced adoption of them until all the associated problems that they also bring along are resolved.

Edited 10 August, 202510 Aug by Graham Butcher

1 hour ago, Graham Butcher said:

Closed minded narrative is precisely what you are exhibiting when you try and rubbish any viewpoint that does not just blindly follow the electric and net zero narrative that you seem to have swallowed hook line and sinker, without even considering the possible negatives, possibly blinded by the much cheapness on offer was the draw

I did say did I not, "what if", I expect next you'll be claiming that it was public knowledge that there was a nuclear bomb being developed and that they would be dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. There are many things that are secret in this world, some are for the right reasons, and some not so.

I have made my position on electric vehicles, clear, not anti them, just anti the current forced adoption of them until all the associated problems that they also bring along are resolved.

Oddly enough two of the biggest weaknesses of electric cars rarely get highlighted.

1. You need a backup car, EV or ICE, incase you arrived home. say from work, near empty, and wants to go out in the evening and one would have to wait quite a time on uk home charging to get a good charge to our ie 2 or more hours unless one went to a more expensive public charger and then one would still be taking a lot more time than in an ICE car.

2. Secondly whilst the West talks big about transition to EV the EU in particular, levy crippling taxes on Chinese EVs hence China is massively switching to sending hybrids, plug in and self charging EVs which don't have the massive import levies.

Neither the EU or UK has expressed how they would replace taxes collected on diesel and petrol, £25B, got to be €100B plus in the case of the EU.

EU particularly seem to stiffling EVs, they say to protect their own EV industry but with Germany that ship seems to have sailed and it is Renault and the Stellantis group that is putting up a fight against the Chinese EV imports.

There is much undercurrents with the transition from fossil fuels to EV and in my view we are oft talking about the wrong things. Two other things I have noticed with my offering, one has no interest in using Eco mode and just want to drive without a care, not unreasonable, and one of the offspring hates me using regen braking, says it makes be feel funny and not in a good way.

Running costs and even buy / lease price moans on EVs, that boat has sailed and EVs are winning hands down. A few other issues as I have mentioned above seem to get little airing ?

6 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

Oddly enough two of the biggest weaknesses of electric cars rarely get highlighted.

1. You need a backup car, EV or ICE, incase you arrived home. say from work, near empty, and wants to go out in the evening and one would have to wait quite a time on uk home charging to get a good charge to our ie 2 or more hours unless one went to a more expensive public charger and then one would still be taking a lot more time than in an ICE car.

2. Secondly whilst the West talks big about transition to EV the EU in particular, levy crippling taxes on Chinese EVs hence China is massively switching to sending hybrids, plug in and self charging EVs which don't have the massive import levies.

Finally a bit of sense, but I still don't fully agree with your first point about the need for a back up car, that would only apply for those that venture out on longer journeys during the day, not so much for those that live in a city and do short local trips to the shops, etc and charge rebelliously every night when they have used the car so it will always be fully topped in the morning, even though they only are doing maybe 10 to 20 miles a day.

It as I have always said (take notice @wyx087 ) there should always be the option of personal choice and that means that if an electric car ticks all of you requirements, then knock yourself out. I expect that if there was to be a mandatory maximum size of the size of people TV screens of say 40" that I expect there would be a huge public backlash to that. It should be always be upto the public to decide on what they want, and is exactly what I want to see for electric cars.

There is zero doubt in my mind, that once the safety issues and the ability to charge cheaply for everyone have been addressed that the vast majority of people will opt for an electric car.

1 hour ago, Graham Butcher said:

Closed minded narrative is precisely what you are exhibiting when you try and rubbish any viewpoint that does not just blindly follow the electric and net zero narrative that you seem to have swallowed hook line and sinker, without even considering the possible negatives, possibly blinded by the much cheapness on offer was the draw

I did say did I not, "what if", I expect next you'll be claiming that it was public knowledge that there was a nuclear bomb being developed and that they would be dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. There are many things that are secret in this world, some are for the right reasons, and some not so.

I have made my position on electric vehicles, clear, not anti them, just anti the current forced adoption of them until all the associated problems that they also bring along are resolved.

Repeatedly publicising your "position" does not change your actual biases.

Case in point, the "what if" question. What is the point in talking about this uncertainty and doubt (FUD) when it is factually impossible? Why talk about something that cannot happen?

I have never rubbished any personal viewpoint. I only fact check and bring out the truth for things that can be brought into clarity. Often, it is your FUD disguised as "viewpoints" are rubbished. I personally see that as a win. After all, this thread is called "truth about EV".

13 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

1. You need a backup car, EV or ICE, incase you arrived home. say from work, near empty, and wants to go out in the evening and one would have to wait quite a time on uk home charging to get a good charge to our ie 2 or more hours unless one went to a more expensive public charger and then one would still be taking a lot more time than in an ICE car.

2. Secondly whilst the West talks big about transition to EV the EU in particular, levy crippling taxes on Chinese EVs hence China is massively switching to sending hybrids, plug in and self charging EVs which don't have the massive import levies.

There is much undercurrents with the transition from fossil fuels to EV and in my view we are oft talking about the wrong things.

It's quite difficult to arrive home at less than 10% on a daily basis. If need going out, there's still 20 miles of range to get to a rapid charger in most EV's. I've been in this situation with Leaf before, 20min at nearby rapid charger sorted it out.

The taxation shortfall is very complex. I personally would rather government announce how they plan to introduce it sooner rather than later.

Something like per-mile driven tax for all cars? or rapid charging EV tax? or what? In this thread alone people keeps saying "just you wait until it gets taxed". The uncertainty in future cost is inadvertently stifling adoption.

Edited 10 August, 202510 Aug by wyx087
wording

1 minute ago, Graham Butcher said:

It as I have always said (take notice @wyx087 ) there should always be the option of personal choice and that means that if an electric car ticks all of you requirements, then knock yourself out. I expect that if there was to be a mandatory maximum size of the size of people TV screens of say 40" that I expect there would be a huge public backlash to that. It should be always be upto the public to decide on what they want, and is exactly what I want to see for electric cars.

There is zero doubt in my mind, that once the safety issues and the ability to charge cheaply for everyone have been addressed that the vast majority of people will opt for an electric car.

There is no safety issue.

Real world stats say EV are magnitude less likely to self ignite than diesels.

The personal choice part is difficult. ICE cars are like smoking. Something had to be done to persuade people to stop. Just like 2035 deadline (take note, we are still 10 years away for brand new cars, used cars will be available), there were people unhappy about ban on indoor smoking. There's also people unhappy about their increased cost to smoking due to tobacco tax, just like the ratcheting ZEV mandate.

Agree on getting cheap (slow AC) charging to everyone. It's the EV's convenience superpower.

12 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

Repeatedly publicising your "position" does not change your actual biases.

Case in point, the "what if" question. What is the point in talking about this uncertainty and doubt (FUD) when it is factually impossible? Why talk about something that cannot happen?

I have never rubbished any viewpoint. I only fact check and bring out the truth. Often, it is your FUD disguised as "viewpoints" are rubbished. I personally see that as a win. After all, this thread is called "truth about EV".

It's quite difficult to arrive home at less than 10% on a daily basis. If need going out, there's still 20 miles of range to get to a rapid charger in most EV's. I've been in this situation with Leaf before, 20min at nearby rapid charger sorted it out.

The taxation shortfall is very complex. I personally would rather government announce how they plan to introduce it sooner rather than later.

Something like per-mile driven tax for all cars? or rapid charging EV tax? or what? In this thread alone people keeps saying "just you wait until it gets taxed". The uncertainty in future cost is inadvertently stifling adoption.

Media saying the new EV Grant is stiffling EV uptake this year. Well yes whilst the £1500 is appearing on most EVs, whether they are European and will get the 1500 or 3750, or an intermediate figure, EV buyers are wait and seeing.

Also in Q4 uk car sellers will start panicking about hitting their 28% EV mandate. Plus their should be cheaper finance deals reflecting the drop in central bank lending rates.

I do arrive sometimes with low single figure state of charge. It is quite easy to judge it so one does but I am aware that if I did need to pop some distance I need a car with 100, 200 mile capability Sat their when I get home and I needed to onward travel soon after getting home.

This would not be a problem if homes had 3 phase and a Renault like my Scenic and Zoe which can charge at 22 kws AC.

Never want to go back to ICE and apparently 90% of EV adopters say and do the same. Just buy / PCP a better EV a couple years down the line as it will probably be about 30% better. Something you cannot say about ICE cars which had tech which has virtually stagnated.

1 hour ago, wyx087 said:

There is no safety issue.

Real world stats say EV are magnitude less likely to self ignite than diesels.

There maybe some truth to that statement if you change diesels to petrols, as has already been well proven, I'm not saying that diesels cannot burn, I have already publicly acknowledged that fact having seen way to many badly maintained buses catch fire while I was working with buses many years ago. You can throw a burning match into a pool of diesel and it will extinguish the match and no fire or explosion will result. Now try that trick with petrol........ Diesel demands a far more concentrated source of ignition before it will consider burning.

The point that you constantly fail to see and accept is when the EV battery enters into thermal runaway, and this shows your actual biases towards ICE vehicles when you cannot even agree and accept that when EV batteries burn, there is no currently known method to put them out, they burn hotter, produce very toxic gases and they can then self ignite at a later date even when it is thought that they have finished burning. Even the much touted LFP battery is not as safe as they make you think they are. Yes, they are less likely to burn as easily, but what they do produce when in thermal runaway is massive amount of hydrogen, and you certainly do not want to be anywhere near that when that goes off.

The upshot of all comes down to the following, a petrol or diesel based fire is extremely easy to deal with and fire depts can and do knock down such fires very quickly, they have many decades of experience in doing so, but when it comes down to an EV fire, that does not happen and the general consensus globally fire depts is to try and prevent it from spreading to neighbouring cars or structures and let the EV burn itself out.

35 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

There maybe some truth to that statement if you change diesels to petrols, as has already been well proven, I'm not saying that diesels cannot burn, I have already publicly acknowledged that fact having seen way to many badly maintained buses catch fire while I was working with buses many years ago. You can throw a burning match into a pool of diesel and it will extinguish the match and no fire or explosion will result. Now try that trick with petrol........ Diesel demands a far more concentrated source of ignition before it will consider burning.

Fuel itself not ignite easily does not have any bearing on fire risk of the vehicle.

Diesel up to now have had more emission equipment that can go wrong and operate at higher combustion temperature.

37 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

The point that you constantly fail to see and accept is when the EV battery enters into thermal runaway, and this shows your actual biases towards ICE vehicles when you cannot even agree and accept that when EV batteries burn, there is no currently known method to put them out, they burn hotter, produce very toxic gases and they can then self ignite at a later date even when it is thought that they have finished burning. Even the much touted LFP battery is not as safe as they make you think they are. Yes, they are less likely to burn as easily, but what they do produce when in thermal runaway is massive amount of hydrogen, and you certainly do not want to be anywhere near that when that goes off.

Fire risk is a combination of likelihood and consequence. BEV are far far far less likely to start with as established by reports previously discussed.

You are always only focused on the consequence. Batteries burns differently, no doubt about it. But at same time BEV fire wouldn't spread in the same way as running fuel fire that has destroyed multiple car parks.

41 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

The upshot of all comes down to the following, a petrol or diesel based fire is extremely easy to deal with and fire depts can and do knock down such fires very quickly, they have many decades of experience in doing so, but when it comes down to an EV fire, that does not happen and the general consensus globally fire depts is to try and prevent it from spreading to neighbouring cars or structures and let the EV burn itself out.

So Liverpool car park fire in 2018 and Luton airport car park fire in 2024 were supposed to be easy to deal with?

You haven't read either of those reports that referenced running fuel fire and how it is one of primary cause for fire spreading out of control?

Tell me, which of your points you feel are factually correct and you can back it up with third party report/article/links? I'll try to steer away from your personal opinions so that you don't feel I am rubbishing your viewpoints.

Renaults not qualified for £3750 and if they don't with their top efficient low CO2 who the hell is ?

Maybe it just going to be Nissan EVs made in the uk that qualify ?

Today on the news i heard it said that the list is currently 17 EV,s that qualify and more models will be added in the near future.

What a half arsed scheme. The scheme must have just been hashed up for a quick announcement when they needed to get a story out.

Edited 11 August, 202511 Aug by Ootohere

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Edited 12 August, 202512 Aug by Ootohere

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Back to school!? Do those going back to school drive?

Any excuse for a sales event.

Good deals though.

back-2-school-sale-event

Only £250 off for Dolphin. Could be better.

Edited 14 August, 202514 Aug by wyx087

@wyx087 Actually teachers and others do drive to school, and there are places where the 6th year pupils cars are nicer than the staffs.

Driving instructors wait outside the school to pick up pupils.

In Scotland there might be some that got their exam results the other week and will be staying on a quite possibly getting a nice new car. Or mum is an the youngster gets to use it.

Around £20,000 neither here nor there to some parents. Then they might need the car for when they go to Uni.

Social divide. 3 phase EV charging at home on the farm.

14 hours ago, Ootohere said:

@wyx087 Actually teachers and others do drive to school, and there are places where the 6th year pupils cars are nicer than the staffs.

Driving instructors wait outside the school to pick up pupils.

In Scotland there might be some that got their exam results the other week and will be staying on a quite possibly getting a nice new car. Or mum is an the youngster gets to use it.

Around £20,000 neither here nor there to some parents. Then they might need the car for when they go to Uni.

Social divide. 3 phase EV charging at home on the farm.

10 minutes in Rob explains just how quick the Zoe mk3 can charge ie at 22 kws using 3 phase.

Apart from adding 100 miles of range in an hour the battery gets warmed quicker so can be in better temp range when starting.

I like the Bluetti stuff, which is portable, and can move with me. Just need to daisy work out how to get 11, 16,22 kws out when modularised with additional batteries. My dream system below in the middle ....

BLUETTI UK

BLUETTI Apex 300 Versatile Power Station | 2,764.8Wh 3,840W

BLUETTI Apex 300: 2,764Wh LiFePO₄ power station with 3,840W AC (7,680W peak). Expandable to 58kWh and app-ready—ideal for home backup, RVs & off-grid.

Edited 15 August, 202515 Aug by lol-lol

@lol-lol i have no idea where all the Zoe have gone.

They used to be all around here and now i hardly ever see one.

2 hours ago, Ootohere said:

@lol-lol i have no idea where all the Zoe have gone.

They used to be all around here and now i hardly ever see one.

Mine goes back in a few weeks and I would buy if it was £9k or less but at £13k for the balloon price no chance.

Probably storing them somewhere but Renault will have to take the hit at some point. Dealer would probably only give Mobilize ie RFI about £8k for a 4 year old low mileage R135 Zoe.

PCP protects me, monthly payment of well under £300 a month and no risk on the future value. With such great new EV deals and just a hank for a change the Zoes have taken quite a hit from the overblown £34k RRP in 2021.

I've held the view since about 6 months into my ID.4 ownership that 22kW 3-phase AC charging should be a standard feature on all cars. It makes destination charging pretty much all day trippers need. Of course a lot of AC chargers are only single phase, but 3-phase is common enough for 22kW charging to be a useful addition to a car.

26 minutes ago, Luckypants said:

I've held the view since about 6 months into my ID.4 ownership that 22kW 3-phase AC charging should be a standard feature on all cars. It makes destination charging pretty much all day trippers need. Of course a lot of AC chargers are only single phase, but 3-phase is common enough for 22kW charging to be a useful addition to a car.

Are IDs all/ mainly 11 kWs ?

Which is 3 phase but lower Amps than 16, 22, 43 kWs that some cars have as AC charging.

Don't know the logic but is the higher amperage much more expensive I wonder.

Renault are very erratic with what they put in. Scenic was 22 kW but I gather they gave dropped it down to 11 kw as standard now.

Odd choices.

Yes all ID.4 (and all MEB cars) are 11kW on three phase. 16 amps per phase or 3 x 3.6kW (nominal at 230V). Most cars charge at 11kW on 3-phase, mainly due to cost of the larger 22kW charger from what I understand. Most European homes have 3-phase supply but are limited on amps, so there is less demand for 22kW OBC there as most cannot take advantage.

2 hours ago, Luckypants said:

Most European homes have 3-phase supply

But sadly most UK homes only have a single phase supply, and in my experience most US home have a dual 110V at 180 degree phase supply (giving 220V for tumble dryers and washing machines).

2 hours ago, PetrolDave said:

But sadly most UK homes only have a single phase supply, and in my experience most US home have a dual 110V at 180 degree phase supply (giving 220V for tumble dryers and washing machines).

As with getting cheap electricity and even reliable electricity i believe the solutions are in our own hands.

It is, it appears much part of a social divide but adding solar and home batteries seems to me, maybe exaggerated appearance to me in "sweet suburbia" but the self generation is massive here in the "Villages" in Worcester with about half of houses have installed solar, usually a dozen or more 400 to 500w panels. How many have batteries I don't know, maybe third, maybe half, hard to guess.

Many will also have car chargers powered by that solar and maybe batteries too.

To have a three phase AC supply to car is no big step and those with batteries in the 20 kwh plus will probably have 3 phase tech to their EVs.

I think this will become increasingly common place rather than The Grid actually getting 3 phase supply to more houses.

To retrofit 3 phase will require digging up the road/garden/driveway, will be quite disruptive.

But at the same time, there's a significant amount of housing stock on looped supply. This will also require digging up the road/garden/driveway to retrofit dedicated wiring for each house. Could be good opportunity to go straight to 3 phase.

All new builds now should be 3 phase and no gas. With heat pump, solar + batteries and EV charging. No gas infrastructure would save more than putting in slightly thicker cable with 2 more cores.

As I'm on the have side of the social divide. Recent mild heat wave had not been felt. Never exceeded 25c throughout my house, whole day. Gained conservatory as one more usable room that used to get to 35c from the sun. Air-con electricity comes from solar and powerwall at 0 to 7 p/kWh. 😎

23 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

To retrofit 3 phase will require digging up the road/garden/driveway, will be quite disruptive.

But at the same time, there's a significant amount of housing stock on looped supply. This will also require digging up the road/garden/driveway to retrofit dedicated wiring for each house. Could be good opportunity to go straight to 3 phase.

All new builds now should be 3 phase and no gas. With heat pump, solar + batteries and EV charging. No gas infrastructure would save more than putting in slightly thicker cable with 2 more cores.

As I'm on the have side of the social divide. Recent mild heat wave had not been felt. Never exceeded 25c throughout my house, whole day. Gained conservatory as one more usable room that used to get to 35c from the sun. Air-con electricity comes from solar and powerwall at 0 to 7 p/kWh. 😎

If air-conditioning is coming from home grown power then happy days.

Worry is if air-conditioning power is coming from the grid.

This makes cities become even more heat islands where the city, outside of course, can be 4c hotter than the countryside would be.

I had a quick look at heat pump install, one with dual function to heat and cool but I don't want to spend thousands on a house I will probably leave in a year or two.

Like EVs I think the subsidy has to be covering a lot of the cost. I have a high efficiency newish boiler and with Octopus fixed 12M tariff at 5.71 p per kwh the whole setup is very cheap to buy and run. Saving on gas used with the new boiler compared to the old and reduction in tge maintenance contract means it paid for itself. Need to get heat pump to the same place ie cost a mere £1k a year for both install and running.

On 10/08/2025 at 15:01, wyx087 said:

So Liverpool car park fire in 2018 and Luton airport car park fire in 2024 were supposed to be easy to deal with?

You haven't read either of those reports that referenced running fuel fire and how it is one of primary cause for fire spreading out of control?

Sorry folks to drag this out even longer, but I really feel that it is essential to point out to the oracle of all knowledge and maybe one of the most blinkered people here, that he has managed to totally ignore the huge point that in both of those car park fires, there was zero fire suppression systems installed.

Not that they would have actually put the fires out, but they would certainly have had a slowing down effect on the spread of the fire, the running fuel fire was more than likely due to the delay in actually getting any fire fighting equipment to the actual point of the fire, not the car park, but to the actual fire itself, which in both cases was on the third floor of a multistorey carpark, both of which were designed with no sprinklers and with zero access to fire appliances, meaning that they had to get fire fighters and hoses up 3 floors before they could even start tackling the fire. This itself took some time to accomplish, and needs to be added onto the 10 minutes that the fire brigade took to arrive

Name me one multistorey car that has been designed to allow vehicles larger than transit vans to access them, let alone fire engines, which would have been able to get to the fire before firefighters on foot dragging hoses with them could.

So to suggest that the collapse of the structure and the loss of the cars and building was all down to the wicked Dino juice running along the floors is just showing his total bias and cannot accept that the presence of electric cars within the fire itself made things considerably worse, as they just cannot deal with them in an affective manner. They burn fire hotter then fossil fuel and they just have to leave them to burn themselves out which is far longer then a ICE car.

Edited 15 August, 202515 Aug by Graham Butcher