6 hours ago, moley said:

Why would you want to put 20% VAT on gas?

If you were someone who had a house that was 100% electric?

15 hours ago, classic said:

Try living in the USA and then get seriously ill.

Wasn't particularly thinking of the USA but my wife is German and to her the NHS compared to what she was used to are night and day.

And it's actually nothing bad in the US as long as you have proper insurance.

I’m certain, from my own experience, that we haven’t got the best system.

But the USA insurance scheme isn’t the answer. Need follow up mri scans for something like breast cancer - pay it yourself at $3,000 a time the insurance won’t cover it, a friends relative has got this going on now. Maybe they need better insurance but then it comes down to that Alan B’Stard quote “you’re poor, you get ill, you die.”

Anyway, back to Electric car truth - I’ve got a 100 mile journey today, will I make it, run out of electricity or explode somewhere 😬 ?

17 hours ago, moley said:

Why would you want to put 20% VAT on gas?

Gas is a dirty fuel, at least compared to renewable electricity which is thankfully increasingly a larger if not biggest part of our energy consumption.

Their is excise duty of gas, think it is about 23p per kg, but gas used for heating is currently exempt from this excise tax.

Also, even despite the Russian military action against Ukraine, is still very cheap compared to electricity. I pay 5.71p per jwh for my gas and even my quite cheap night time electricity GO rate is 8.5p per kwh gas is still significantly cheaper and perhaps both the excise duty exception for gas for heating needs phasing out as well as incremental increase on vat for gas should be introduced.

To have carrot as well as stick even more incentives for heat pumps. Heat Pumps are magical and can even reverse climate change compared to gas use which is pushing us ever closing to all those bad climate change out comings.

Hope the Chancellor does these measures both to affect public choices, help energy transition and raise more revenue for the services we need.

Wasn't COP30 held in Brazil and a large slice of Amazon rainforest cleared to build the conference facilities and accommodation for the many thousands of personal, all of which were flown in on many filthy polluting airplanes?

Its a bit hypocritical surely when do that, the rainforest actually digests huge amounts of CO2 which just what we need apparently to combat increasing levels of CO2 and thus help to "save" the planet, but that all gets swept aside and is ignored as nothing is allowed to disrupt the narrative of Net-Zero, but these so-called conferences are actually making it worse?

Haven't they ever heard of Zoom so that nobody need to add to their carbon footprint, oh no, it's only us the public who have to make sacrifices.

Edited 8 November, 20258 Nov by Graham Butcher

1 hour ago, lol-lol said:

Heat Pumps are magical and can even reverse climate change

Eh?? Evidence please

Also as an aside... The experience of colleagues who have switched to heat pumps from gas has not been good... With them citing cold houses and much higher bills added to the high cost of installation

28 minutes ago, skomaz said:

Eh?? Evidence please

Also as an aside... The experience of colleagues who have switched to heat pumps from gas has not been good... With them citing cold houses and much higher bills added to the high cost of installation

I rather suspect his post was ironic.

A significant issue with heat pumps is their maximum attainable outflow temperatures, which will not normally be able to reach the level of a gas or electric boiler. This can cause issues due to radiators now being undersized.

Even ground source heat pumps suffer from this unless they use underfloor heating loops.

2 hours ago, lol-lol said:

Heat Pumps are magical and can even reverse climate change.

How much did the install cost for your heat pump and how much does it cost to run compared to gas central heating?

23 minutes ago, moley said:

How much did the install cost for your heat pump

...including any radiator upgrades and, if you had a combi boiler with no hot water tank, any upgrades to the hot water system?

Oh any how much, if any, making good of decorations (painting, plastering, etc.)?

30 minutes ago, Warrior193 said:

I rather suspect his post was ironic.

A significant issue with heat pumps is their maximum attainable outflow temperatures, which will not normally be able to reach the level of a gas or electric boiler. This can cause issues due to radiators now being undersized.

Even ground source heat pumps suffer from this unless they use underfloor heating loops.

Indeed it could have been ironic but you never can tell given some of the inaccuracies and rubbish he spouts... It could easily be something he believes he has evidence of.

Re outflow temps... Yes absolutely... Which is the issue colleagues have experienced necessitating new larger radiators and additional insulation and draught proofing... As well as permanent running of the heat pump... But they still have issues.

3 hours ago, moley said:

How much did the install cost for your heat pump and how much does it cost to run compared to gas central heating?

I am looking at a single unit, 24,000 but, 7 kw just for part of downstairs where I work from.cost is £750 and I will fit myself.

At the other end of the scale is my brothers house that has heat pump heating. It wax a new biuld so all part of the complete house. Underfloor heating as well as radiator.i got him on Octopus Cosy Tariff so we shared the intro bonus. Big house with a very large lounge combined with kitchen.not perfect as the far part of the room with the patio doors not az warm as it could be but economically. Under flooring heating downstairs.

The tech is moving rapidly.

3 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

I am looking at a single unit, 24,000 but, 7 kw just for part of downstairs where I work from.cost is £750 and I will fit myself.

If heat pumps are 'magical' wouldn't it be better to get a full system installed by a professional company so you reap the full benefits of the system?

14 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

I am looking at a single unit, 24,000 but, 7 kw just for part of downstairs where I work from.cost is £750 and I will fit myself.

Just to add some clarity here, I believe that @lol-lol meant 24,000 btu and not but.

Heat pumps are 300-400% efficient compared to a combi boiler 90-95%, so between 315% and 444% efficiency gain.

Currently on Octopus 16M Fixed my gas costs 6.42p/kWh and my electricity costs 24.98p/kWh, so electricity is 389% the cost of gas.

This means the running cost benefit of heat pump vs combi boiler is open to question depending on individual appliances.

If you take into account paying back the purchase & installation cost of the heat pump even with the substantial grants available (and making good the plumbing to the boiler), the probable additional cost of upgraded radiators (because of the lower water temperature), and the possible cost of adding hot water storage, then it appears to be doubtful whether changing from combi boiler to heat pump is financially viable on an individual basis?

And now back towards some sort of normal programming, I don't know if anyone is aware but news coming in that Quentin Willson has died.

57 minutes ago, PetrolDave said:

Heat pumps are 300-400% efficient compared to a combi boiler 90-95%, so between 315% and 444% efficiency gain.

Currently on Octopus 16M Fixed my gas costs 6.42p/kWh and my electricity costs 24.98p/kWh, so electricity is 389% the cost of gas.

This means the running cost benefit of heat pump vs combi boiler is open to question depending on individual appliances.

If you take into account paying back the purchase & installation cost of the heat pump even with the substantial grants available (and making good the plumbing to the boiler), the probable additional cost of upgraded radiators (because of the lower water temperature), and the possible cost of adding hot water storage, then it appears to be doubtful whether changing from combi boiler to heat pump is financially viable on an individual basis?

At lower outdoor temperatures the efficiency of heat pumps is much lower. Sometimes not much more than 100% if it's very cold.

1 hour ago, moley said:

If heat pumps are 'magical' wouldn't it be better to get a full system installed by a professional company so you reap the full benefits of the system?

Not planning to stay in this house, too many bedrooms fir my current needs so want to move in the next year or so for a place with less bedroom but more garage and workshop area. Therefore just want a heat pump device, like with my solar tracking arrays that I can take with me.

Both EV chargers will stay. Looking more at portable EV chargers anyways abd I did not pay anything like full price for them, one government subsidised so I only paid £449 and the other one came with the Renault Scenic ad part of 2024 Car of the Year celebration.

The 24,000 BTU unit for £750 i should be able to quickly detach abd take with me.

Being HEAT PUMP magic it should be able to cool as well as heat. Something gas boilers cannot do, just alway pollute when running adding to the climate crisis whereas heat pumps can take heat out of air, ir ground, and help us keep the Earth warming and CO2 growth to a minimum.

Edited 8 November, 20258 Nov by lol-lol

1 hour ago, Graham Butcher said:

And now back towards some sort of normal programming, I don't know if anyone is aware but news coming in that Quentin Willson has died.

In recent years he has been a big EV advocate. Working with Robert Llewelyn quite bit.

Lung cancer horrible way to go. Sorrow for him and family.

5 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

In recent years he has been a big EV advocate. Working with Robert Llewelyn quite bit.

Lung cancer horrible way to go. Sorrow for him and family.

That accounts for him not appearing at the Farnborough show.

In better news it is looking like the Somerset EV battery factory is less than a year away.

Due to make half a million batteries a tear, employ thousands of people and help EV production in the UK.

Great for SW England which does not have the highest of average wages compared to much of the UK.

1 hour ago, Dieselgate said:

At lower outdoor temperatures the efficiency of heat pumps is much lower. Sometimes not much more than 100% if it's very cold.

For clarity, that's for air source heat pumps - but effectively, ground source isn't an option for the majority.

9 hours ago, moley said:

How much did the install cost for your heat pump and how much does it cost to run compared to gas central heating?

I had 8 kW 4 way multi-split system installed during summer for £7000 (no grant, but there is 0% VAT). Basically almost whole house air conditioning that can cool or heat.

So far, in these milder weather, I was able to use 100% heat pump and maintain about 1c higher room temperature than central heating. AC blows air and thus removes warmth feeling boundary layer on our skin, so need slightly higher thermostat temperature to feel similar warmth. This works for me to keep combi boiler gas central heating from kicking in.

In terms of cost, 99% of my electricity comes from 7p/kWh off peak (or during Octopus free session). So should be cheaper due to efficiency of heat pumps, especially in mild weather. Really need a few years of data to average out the mild weather we are having.

The other issue for mass heat pump adoption, beyond lack of skilled labour and poor installs, are the giant water tanks.

My house is pretty well insulated, after a bit of my DIY with loft insulation. I set 45c flow temperature and were comfortable last winter. So we can get heat pump with minimum extra work for central heating. BUT we really like the combi boiler's instant hot water and absolutely don't have the space for the water tank.

So the combi boiler stays and we'll use the AC units for heating as much as possible. Probably wait for combi boiler sized solutions and/or until there's whispers of end of BUS grant.

Edited 8 November, 20258 Nov by wyx087

5 hours ago, wyx087 said:

I had 8 kW 4 way multi-split system installed during summer for £7000 (no grant, but there is 0% VAT). Basically almost whole house air conditioning that can cool or heat.

So far, in these milder weather, I was able to use 100% heat pump and maintain about 1c higher room temperature than central heating. AC blows air and thus removes warmth feeling boundary layer on our skin, so need slightly higher thermostat temperature to feel similar warmth. This works for me to keep combi boiler gas central heating from kicking in.

In terms of cost, 99% of my electricity comes from 7p/kWh off peak (or during Octopus free session). So should be cheaper due to efficiency of heat pumps, especially in mild weather. Really need a few years of data to average out the mild weather we are having.

The other issue for mass heat pump adoption, beyond lack of skilled labour and poor installs, are the giant water tanks.

My house is pretty well insulated, after a bit of my DIY with loft insulation. I set 45c flow temperature and were comfortable last winter. So we can get heat pump with minimum extra work for central heating. BUT we really like the combi boiler's instant hot water and absolutely don't have the space for the water tank.

So the combi boiler stays and we'll use the AC units for heating as much as possible. Probably wait for combi boiler sized solutions and/or until there's whispers of end of BUS grant.

Heat Geeks reckon latest tech is vastly reducing water tank size needs according to the Just Have a Think guy.

Not had a chance to thermodynamically assess and get third opinions on this.

Your home setup sound well optimal for high and low ambient temperatures, storing cheap lecky and generating your own for home and EV. Model set up.

Like me I expect you wish 3 phase was more readily available. If I could charge the cars at 11 or 22 kw that would be great.

So still the Social Divide.

Not only those that can not charge an EV where they live / where their home is for 'much cheapness'.

Now we are considering & discussing those that can generate their own electricity for charging vehicles or heating / powering their residence after spending on the stuff needed to do that.

Maybe the Office for Statistics or whoever can give the % of those with offroad access for taking vehicles to charge and then those that have solar panels at the property.

If they do not know they can make a guesstimate, or just publish any old figure.

They can use AI and maybe come up with those with Solar Panels but no vehicle access to the property. Then those places like Farms / Race Tracks / Hospitals / Schools / Crems etc with Turbines and or Solar panels.

Edited 9 November, 20259 Nov by Evolution13

Just a thought, apart from the obvious social divide on display here from @lol-lol and @wyx087 which puts them further up the ladder economically then most people, but don't you have to be a certified A/C engineer to mess about with heat pumps and use specialised gear in order to test for leaks at pressure to prevent the restricted and regulated gases from escaping into the environment?