23 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

You are spot on, this thing alone creates a multilayered society. Could you imagine the reaction of everybody if the situation was reversed and it was the ICE owners who were able to fill up at home on fuel at rock-bottom prices?

Yes, I know that would be ridiculous, but here is the rub, ICE drivers have to go to a filling station to refuel. Do you suppose that there would be so many BEV cars on the roads today if they also had to go to a public charger to charge their cars and pay a similar price to that of fossil fuels?

Electricity is something one can make oneself, usually via solar panels but not exclusively, with equipment readily available for a couple/few grand.

Diesel and petrol takes billions of dollars of equipment to create and had to be brought hundreds or thousands of miles to those distribution points which are highly regulated to prevent large explosions which can take out a city block. Diesel and Petrol is easy to tax as this can be done as it leaves the refinery, End Product Duty, it is the most efficient tax of all to collect in terms of cost to collect against amount collected.

With electricity governments have less and less control with as people of the world make their own. They are increasingly there to power street lighting and utility services and more and more there job is to have ways of taking surplus power from domestic customers and presumably industry wanting to feed back surplus to them so their job is increasingly to act as a storer of electricity and energy to make electricity later.

Transformation is happening much more in the sun belt of latitude 35N to 35S where already few consumers need help from the grid during the main daylight hours. They gave solar, they have batteries and they charge their cars in the daytime if they can.

In that zone from Australia and NZ in the southern hemisphere and mainland Europe, US and China people have balcony solar to solar installations the size of football pitches and the countries have hydro projects that make Dinorwig look relatively small. The UK problem is we are far further north in latitude than where most people live but even here people are able make good solar much of the year and use batteries to use less of the expensive electricity and more of the cheap night time electricity.

Trick is harvest enough to feed ones vehicle, difficult living so far north but electricity is clearly the way forward and dino juice yesterday's story. Yes the EU can relax the ban and replace with a near impossible CO2 target for ICE vehicles, result is the same abd with spiralling downward EV cost and spiralling upwards petrol costs that is just more nails in the coffin of ICE vehicles.

Edited 18 December, 202518 Dec by lol-lol

4 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

Transformation is happening much more in the sun belt of latitude 35N to 35S where already few consumers need help from the grid during the main daylight hours.

Also in that "sun belt" are some of the countries with the lowest per capita earnings in the world, transformation there is making the gap between "the haves" and "the have nots" even wider, so it's not as rosy a picture as you paint.

Where is the spiralling upward petrol price? Yes the USA wants to rob Venezuela's oil and the price of Brent Crude is up. Back a few decades a gallon of petrol cost an hours wage of a low paid worker in the UK. Now a gallon of petrol is half the minimum hourly wage in the UK. for someone 21 or over. @lol-lol Even if half of all BEV drivers in the UK can charge at home there is no figures that would even half of those have or will ever have solar panels.

Edited 18 December, 202518 Dec by Evolution13

28 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

Electricity is something one can make oneself, usually via solar panels but not exclusively, with equipment readily available for a couple/few grand.

Diesel and petrol takes billions of dollars of equipment to create and had to be brought hundreds or thousands of miles to those distribution points which are highly regulated to prevent large explosions which can take out a city block.

Diesel and Petrol is easy to tax as this can be done as it leaves the refinery, End Product Duty, it is the most efficient tax of all to collect in terms of cost to collect against amount collected.

Electricity governments have less and less control with as people of the world make their own. They are increasingly there to power street lighting and utility services and more and more there job is to have ways of taking surplus power from domestic customers and presumably industry wanting to feed back surplus to them so their job is increasingly to act as a storer of electricity ir energy to make electricity later.

Transformation is happening much more in the sun belt of latitude 35N to 35S where already few consumers need help from the grid during the main daylight hours. They gave solar, they have batteries and they charge their cars in the daytime if they can.

In that zone from Australia and NZ in the southern hemisphere and mainland Europe, US and China people have balcony solar to solar installations the size of football pitches and the countries have hydro projects that make Dinorwig look relatively small.

The UK problem is we are far further north in latitude than where most people live but even here people are able make good solar much of the year and use batteries to use less of the expensive electricity and more of the cheap night time electricity.

Trick is harvest enough to feed ones vehicle, difficult living so far north but electricity is clearly the way forward and dino juice yesterday's story.

Yes the EU can relax the ban abd replace with a near impossible CO2 target for ICE vehicles,result is the same abd with spiralling downward EV cost and spiralling upwards petrol costs that is just more nails in the coffin of ICE vehicles.

Yes, but that was not the question was it, I asked to imagine IF it was reversed and ICE could be filled at home at BEV couldn't, then it BEV drivers would be moaning, wouldn't it?

Just stop destroying forests and concreting the ground over, allow farmers to grow crops etc is a quicker way reduce C02 production and slow climate change and improve the GDP and economy at the same time, import less.

Edited 18 December, 202518 Dec by Graham Butcher

5 minutes ago, PetrolDave said:

Also in that "sun belt" are some of the countries with the lowest per capita earnings in the world, transformation there is making the gap between "the haves" and "the have nots" even wider, so it's not as rosy a picture as you paint.

Yes of course patchy in relation to wealth per capita but the transformation in Australia, and NZ, has been stunning going from a luddite coal burning power generation to a leader in renewables.

Africa has been rip for solar and my old firm was heavily involved in setting up battery banks in remote places and with solar.

Think I read that some countries in South America have gone big on solar and even linking excess solar to making hydrogen. Panels are so cheap now something 30 cents per watt means paying back in a season or two whether for individual users, business or governments.

Part of the reason for the delay in the outright EV ban has been said to been the number of Eastern European countries who are several years behind the Western European countries and the European success of the Dacia Sandero / Renault Clio (bas model) as most popular car in Europe is testimony for those wanting cheap motoring with a ICE system only, no hybrid but the EU requirement on CO2 is still very very demanding and difficult, as a Mech Eng apprentice, ex Piper employee how these engines are going to get below 50 gm /km when the struggle currently to get much below 100 gm / km.

As I have said one can start using lithium (LFP) batteries, with a small solar panel and pair of LED lights I have bought from £14. My panels are costing me £32.65 currently (100w) so about 33p per watt. Next month/quarter should be when electricity costs will be nasty before falling in April. At least gas is suppose to go down a lot to offset but cannot use that in my EV. Unless a can get a gas powered generator perhaps.

13 minutes ago, Evolution13 said:

Where is the spiralling upward petrol price? Yes the USA wants to rob Venezuela's oil and the price of Brent Crude is up. Back a few decades a gallon of petrol cost an hours wage of a low paid worker in the UK. Now a gallon of petrol is half the minimum hourly wage in the UK. for someone 21 or over. @lol-lol Even if half of all BEV drivers in the UK can charge at home there is no figures that would even half of those have or will ever have solar panels.

Not until September but just past the middle of 2026, after the summer driving season, band higher excise duties are due to hit. Someone said duty (incl VAT) up from 63.6p a litre to near 70p a litre.

Oil companies being accused of profiteering as oil prices are lowest for 4 years but pump prices not budging much.

10 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Yes, but that was not the question was it, I asked to imagine IF it was reversed and ICE could be filled at home at BEV couldn't, then it BEV drivers would be moaning, wouldn't it?

It cannot be considered due to the nature of hydrocarbons fuel. futile exercise. One fuel is extremely difficult to handle and lots of regs on how to store. The other is everywhere and ways and amounts it can be stored in and transformed to be used devices and vehicles is evolving in a good way by the week.

7 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

It cannot be considered due to the nature of hydrocarbons fuel. futile exercise. One fuel is extremely difficult to handle and lots of regs on how to store. The other is everywhere and ways and amounts it can be stored in and transformed to be used devices and vehicles is evolving in a good way by the week.

Thats why I said "imagine" and I also said in my original post "Yes, I know that would be ridiculous" but for argument's, sake lets assume that it was possible and that ICE cars were the new fangled cars that could be connected to the home power supply, and that BEVs were the old fossil-fuelled cars and that BEVs had to drive to a filling station in order to refuel and it was much more costly. BEV drivers had to continue with their cars because they didn't have the requirements at home to refuel, i.e., a drive or off street parking.

Now do you understand the premise of my question, I do hope so because then some people might actually realise the disadvantages that many people actually have that prevents them from joining the party???

31 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

Oil companies being accused of profiteering as oil prices are lowest for 4 years but pump prices not budging much.

That is so wrong, pump prices are rising and fast, I'm paying almost 10p more a litre now than I was a month ago, despite crude oil being cheaper.

45 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Thats why I said "imagine" and I also said in my original post "Yes, I know that would be ridiculous" but for argument's, sake lets assume that it was possible and that ICE cars were the new fangled cars that could be connected to the home power supply, and that BEVs were the old fossil-fuelled cars and that BEVs had to drive to a filling station in order to refuel and it was much more costly. BEV drivers had to continue with their cars because they didn't have the requirements at home to refuel, i.e., a drive or off street parking.

Now do you understand the premise of my question, I do hope so because then some people might actually realise the disadvantages that many people actually have that prevents them from joining the party???

Possibly a hydrogen network that could feed ones boiler and ones car too. Tgat wound be something.

Charges ones vehicle in two minutes with hydrogen, have an quick heating boiler rather than a heat pumps that takes ages to heat up.

Carbon is the enemy not burning a fuel ie hydrogen which only priced water as output of material.

Anything with carbon is being seen as the enemy and probably rightly so but tgere are alternates it is just not much happening in that direction compared to the super rapid development of electricity generation and usage.

26 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

Possibly a hydrogen network that could feed ones boiler and ones car too. Tgat wound be something.

Charges ones vehicle in two minutes with hydrogen, have an quick heating boiler rather than a heat pumps that takes ages to heat up.

Carbon is the enemy not burning a fuel ie hydrogen which only priced water as output of material.

Anything with carbon is being seen as the enemy and probably rightly so but tgere are alternates it is just not much happening in that direction compared to the super rapid development of electricity generation and usage.

Hydrogen is even worse from a danger point of view than oil, but it was still a question not about the rights and wrongs of burning stuff but more about the current setup being so divisive, i.e., those who have and those who don't.

It is also possibly true to say that electric cars are coming on in leaps and bounds and ICE not so much because the WHO and UN are telling the world's governments that electric is the way forward, and car manufacturers are therefore not going to continue research to really push ICE towards far lower emissions, as it is possibly not possible within the time frame imposed?

I do however, believe that with the right incentive, they and scientists could come up with a filtration system that could filter out CO2 and turn it into a more inert or useful substance in the same way as they managed to effectively eradicate carbon monoxide as a harmful emission.

Less need to kill and maim people in other countries or blocked them if there was not the greed to take what belongs to others like the USA & UK has done for many a decade. There is not wars hopefully over people stealing electricity generated by Wind, Solar or Hydro. Sadly in current wars there are those knocking out the Nuclear or what ever power plants. eg Ukraine, Palestine. There are Tariff Wars though and that is mainly about the Super Powers / bullies yet again. Oil & Gas rich countries who are just greedy. Now it is Minerals and rare metals / minerals that continues the taking of what others own. ..............................While other countries like Norway can do Carbon Capture the likes of the UK will spend millions or billions of public money and get no place fast. If it was economically viable it would have happened.

Edited 18 December, 202518 Dec by Evolution13

1 hour ago, Graham Butcher said:

Hydrogen is even worse from a danger point of view than oil, but it was still a question not about the rights and wrongs of burning stuff but more about the current setup being so divisive, i.e., those who have and those who don't.

It is also possibly true to say that electric cars are coming on in leaps and bounds and ICE not so much because the WHO and UN are telling the world's governments that electric is the way forward, and car manufacturers are therefore not going to continue research to really push ICE towards far lower emissions, as it is possibly not possible within the time frame imposed?

I do however, believe that with the right incentive, they and scientists could come up with a filtration system that could filter out CO2 and turn it into a more inert or useful substance in the same way as they managed to effectively eradicate carbon monoxide as a harmful emission.

No Carbon.

Legislation all over the world to reduce and ASAP stop carbon in all its forms.

UK is signed up to CBAM and EU is ahead of UK by a year or so with this.

About 35 countries/groups involved in International Carbon Action Partnership...

No Carbon, or it tax into being reduced and then substituted is the common plan !

The crazy weather reminds us all of the urgency.

GOV.UK

Factsheet: Carbon border adjustment mechanism

Taxation and Customs Union

Carbon Border Adjustment Mechanism

The CBAM will initially apply to imports of certain goods and selected precursors whose production is carbon intensive and at most significant risk of carbon leakage: cement, iron and steel, aluminium

Emissions Trading Worldwide: ICAP Status Report 2025

Check out the 2025 ICAP Status Report with the latest developments in emissions trading around the world.The report includes:🔹 State and outlook of emissions trading worldwide🔹 Detailed factsheets o

250613_icap_sr25_es_en.pdf

Carbon / emissions trading is the big con in this world. Like the EV Mandate and buying credits from other Car Manufacturers.

4 hours ago, lol-lol said:

the transformation in Australia, and NZ,

You defined the sun belt as being 35N to 35S, which doesn't include NZ as its most northerly point is over 40S, plus Australia goes as far south as 44S so it's not entirely within the sun belt.

23 minutes ago, PetrolDave said:

You defined the sun belt as being 35N to 35S, which doesn't include NZ as its most northerly point is over 40S, plus Australia goes as far south as 44S so it's not entirely within the sun belt.

I think it was the Electric Vikjng who talked about the 35 degree belt and I just remembered it from him, he is an Aussie.

A figure I remember from Vangelis Albedo 0.39 album and track is the 23 degrees 27 minutes etc and losing that 23.5 ish degrees from the zenith near the winter solstice as we are low certainly makes the sun very low in the sky abd in Worcester we are just over 52N latitude so add 23.5 degrees and we have the sun, at best, about 15 degrees above the horizon. Not too bad for me as I my solar tracking arrays dip right down to point at tge sun but roof top solar is going to be very poorly position probably.

I think it was YouTuber "Just have a think" who quoted a study showing how bad solar xan be far from the equator in the winter time. We of course get much longer daylight hours in the summers than those between and close to the tropics of Cancer and Capricorn. Still tuning my solar arrays and need to do quite a bit more tree surgery, especially of tge evergreen tree to improve my solar harvesting.

A Nissan Ariya did pole to pole and used solar, those lightweight foldable panels which I also have. They did the journey summer in the northern hemisphere to summer in the southern semi of course. Not too far from the obliquity of the ecliptic zones is best and certainly more of struggle when one is more than twice that from the equator.

Quantum change / Improvement is Europe UK cheapest car the Dacia Spring.

Test drove a Spring 65 (hp) earlier this year, thinking it would be fine as a backup and local car for silly money, one could get a new one for about £11k.

Dacia /Renault, in conjunction with Dongfeng the manufacturer, have done many improvements, all for a rise in the RRP of about £1k it seems. Spring 45 become Spring 70 and the old Spring 65 becomes the Spring 100 but as well as 50% more horsepower a whole host of other improvements which were needed ie roll bar, brakes as the one I drove felt very skitty. One thing have not heard about but needs doing was the front seats, just awful, people were ripping out seats from crashed corsa etc to fit in and replace the shockingly bad OE seats. Should further the EV transition and might try one just for interest though loving my R5 of course and only annoyed I only got the £1500 grant rather than the £3750 though apparently the R5+ in RHD is still a few months away so people are accepting the current R5 with only the lower grant to get in one sooner rather than wait for but one only gets it with the 52 kwh battery and not the 40 kwh battery version I have. It will come and the R5 will drop to below £20k but below that Dacia / Renault will have the Spring soon and then the Twingo EV which i sadly think will be squeezed by the R5+ and Spring 100 which is, again, not great for Europe and a victory for China which seems to be the norm now sadly.

I will look again when the new ones are available but i think it will be just a petrol automatic i get.Plenty pre reg or very nearly new ones about for much cheapness compared to the RRP's. Even better bargains than small BEV,s.

Edited 19 December, 202519 Dec by Evolution13

4 minutes ago, Evolution13 said:

I will look again when the new ones are available but i think it will be just a petrol automatic i get.Plenty re reg or very nearly new ones about for much cheapness compared to the RRP's. Even better bargains than small BEV,s.

Spring is Chinese made as we know and just badged as Dacia but just goes to show how companies like Dongfeng, Hyundai, Leapmotors etc can lower their prices to equal tge European and UK EV subsidies due to the rapidly falling prices of batteries and particularly the cheapness of LFP EV batteries.

Interesting choice of VW to go with LFP for the smaller batteried Polo ID. 37 kwh does sound small, I struggle sometimes to do the journeys down to South Wales from Worcester in the R5 with its 40 kwh battery. Though I would say my lad's Mini does not eat up its range as quick as the R5. Maybe 4 miles reducing for every 3 miles travelled in winter, rain, cold etc where the R5 is more like 3 miles gone for every 2 miles travelled. Hope the Polo ID is good on efficiency, not sure smaller battery version gets a heat pump even.

ICE cars still have a place in colder climates where all that, 65% or so, "waste" heat if very useful for cabin heating. Same for Canada etc. Though Nirway has transitioned well of course. Gather Sodium batteries are better in the cold bur lithium has been getting better recently.

Edited 19 December, 202519 Dec by lol-lol

Octopus just released their GO tariff prices for Q1 2026 ie before the drop from the recent budget announcements for Q2 2026 takes effect.

The very good news is the Night time rate of 8.5 p/kwh is staying until March 31st 2026 which is fantastic for our EV charging done in this period.

The ok but not great is the daily charge going up 0.7p per day so about £0.63 (Edited for £6 wrongly calculated in original post) for the quarter which is OK I guess.

The painful bit is the Day time rate going up by over a penny per kwh to nearly 30 p/kwh so more effort required to drive down that usage. Working on that and am confident I will be able to use less Day time electricity by downloading Night time and using during the day, TV, router and EE, Sky boxes will be using Night time power from 1st of Jan I will setup.

Hope Q2 reductions in unit cost affect Night time lecky as well as Day time and we will see in 90 days time !

Edited 19 December, 202519 Dec by lol-lol

Just had my 'Warm home discount' £150 credited to my account by Eon Next. Soooper. & i have my 7 hours of 6.7 pence a kWh fixed till the end July. They are oh so kind. Sitting nicely in credit so reduced my DD to £110 after having upped it to £150. Sometimes Eon Next credit a bit more before spring. Maybe because there is still money in their kitty.

Edited 19 December, 202519 Dec by Evolution13

3 minutes ago, Evolution13 said:

Just had my 'Warm home discount' £150 credited to my account by Eon Next. Soooper. & i have my 7 hours of 6.7 pence a kWh fixed till the end July. They are oh so kind. Sitting nicely in credit so reduced my DD to £110 after having upped it to £150. Sometimes Eon Next credit a bit more before spring. Maybe because there is still money in their kitty.

Who new German companies can be so kind.

Competition ie with Octopus, BG maybe and some others working quite well it seems.

My DD is £133 but then we have got three EVs etc and I think I might need to bung in a bit more as bills have been getting close to £250 pm and that credit I built up in the Summer and early Autumn is almost gone. I like Feb with only 28 days and hopefully this is just some short term pain in Q1 before the promised land of cheaper per unit cost in Q2 though I wish they UK government put some of the money off against the daily charge rather than just the per kwh rate but then that is where it currently sits I suppose.

Edited 19 December, 202519 Dec by lol-lol

2 hours ago, lol-lol said:

The very good news is the Night time rate of 8.5 p/kwh is staying until March 31st 2026 which is fantastic for our EV charging done in this period.

But as @Aspman has discovered, those cheap night rate ones are the wrong type of electron for some batteries 😂😂

11 minutes ago, mac11irl said:

But as @Aspman has discovered, those cheap night rate ones are the wrong type of electron for some batteries 😂😂

I am still trying to get my head around that electrons go in the opposite direction to the current.

It's magic isn't it, like microwave ovens, radio waves etc.

Those electrons from the Denmark, France, Norway have to be declared at customs and then they might pop over to Ireland via the UK-Ireland interconnector. Wonder how long they spend in the UK or if one in and a different one out of the same quality.